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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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deezell wrote: »

The only smart home stat system that I'm aware of that has smart monitoring of HW temperature as well as timing is the Honeywell EVOhome system, which consists of a wireless stat and receiver. You would have to have the Evohome controller to add this on to. It wort intergrate with other brands.
HW water temperature is generally set and forget, a simple mechanical stat on the cylinder will suffice to limit the temperature, and most smart stats can control the timing of the HW if required. There's no particular reason that you might want to control the temperature of your stored HW dynamically.
If your HW is delivered directly from a combi boiler (gas or oil) the HW temperature is controlled by the settings in the boiler. You would set a max of maybe 65' to avoid scalding. If the controller integral to the boiler has an OpenTherm interface, a digital serial connection, the some smart stats can control the boiler via this interface, and have programmable control of boiler firing and HW temperature. Tado and Nest have OpenTherm serial contacts, and a list of compatible boilers can be found on their support sites.

Thanks for that, the hot water is generated from my oil boiler and/or solar panels.

It's not so much about the control as the tracking of the temps.

Using home assistant so could program in some controls after but it's more the peaks and lows etc.

ctlsleh

What are the requirements for the SEAI grant when it comes to controller upgrades and will nest suffice? Especially as it doesn’t measure the temp of the hot water tank?

deezell

ctlsleh wrote: »

What are the requirements for the SEAI grant when it comes to controller upgrades and will nest suffice? Especially as it doesn’t measure the temp of the hot water tank?

There's a mighty €700 grant for controller only upgrades at the moment. So much so that the energy companies seem to be installing smart stats for free. I'm assuming they're pulling the grant on your behalf. The downside is if you look for quotes on the popular smart stat/ controllers including grant compliant installation (CH and HW ) the prices quoted seem exorbitant in relation to the stat cost. If you have a combi gas boiler with diirect HW, HW temp or timing is not an issue, if you have a separate cylinder a €15 mechanical stat on the cylinder will cap the temperature. If you can already heat you HW and CH separately with a timer, it's very easy to add a smart stat controller to this. Some just clip on to the existing timer standard backplates. Read the guidelines, it's all about being able to have HW on without CH.

micks_address

deezell wrote: »

There's a mighty €700 grant for controller only upgrades at the moment. So much so that the energy companies seem to be installing smart stats for free. I'm assuming they're pulling the grant on your behalf. The downside is if you look for quotes on the popular smart stat/ controllers including grant compliant installation (CH and HW ) the prices quoted seem exorbitant in relation to the stat cost. If you have a combi gas boiler with diirect HW, HW temp or timing is not an issue, if you have a separate cylinder a €15 mechanical stat on the cylinder will cap the temperature. If you can already heat you HW and CH separately with a timer, it's very easy to add a smart stat controller to this. Some just clip on to the existing timer standard backplates. Read the guidelines, it's all about being able to have HW on without CH.

Just went through this grant process. You need :
Half rads with trvs
Time clock on immersion
Ten square earth to cylinder pipes
Lagging jacket
Ber assessment post installation
Stat on cylinder
Time clock for boiler

I went with nest and happy enough so far.

Still waiting to submit paperwork for grant as assessment only done last week.
Thanks,
Mick

jaggiebunnet

I had signed up to bord gais to get the free Hive install. I have 3 thermostats and 3 pumps on the boiler. It took 3 months for them to get an engineer out in the first place and then when he came he hadn't an idea on how to deal with this setup, he went away and it took another month to contact me to tell me that the Hive cannot work on this setup. Seems a bit odd to me.

Anyway, does anyone know of a smart thermostat system that will work in this setup? Also if anyone has a good suggestion of an installer in Cork that does not necessarily have to be with any of the energy firms but does understand what they are doing?

Thanks.

deezell

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

I had signed up to bord gais to get the free Hive install. I have 3 thermostats and 3 pumps on the boiler. It took 3 months for them to get an engineer out in the first place and then when he came he hadn't an idea on how to deal with this setup, he went away and it took another month to contact me to tell me that the Hive cannot work on this setup. Seems a bit odd to me.

Anyway, does anyone know of a smart thermostat system that will work in this setup? Also if anyone has a good suggestion of an installer in Cork that does not necessarily have to be with any of the energy firms but does understand what they are doing?

Thanks.

In the first instance, any basic thermostat can be replaced by a smart thermostat. You can swap out your three current stats directly for three Tado's, Netatmos, Nests ( via its heatlink box), Hives, Honeywells etc. The new stats will do whatever the old ones did, with the addition of time and tempernature programming, and remote app operation. If your current system has three zones, it will continue to have three, under the control of the new stats. You don't say if your current system has a single timer or a 3 zone timer associated with the stats. Again, old timers can be removed or switched to always on as the new smart stats will manage the timing of each zone as well as it's temperature.
You also don't mention how HW is controlled, but again this is optional. You can leave it under the old system ( possible timer and cylinder stat), or you can hand timing control over to one of the new smart stats via its relay box.

jaggiebunnet

Thanks Deezell, and that is what I thought, but it seems they just didn't know how to do it with Hive, which made no sense to me. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get into the technical details too much with him as I was at work when they called back. I have 3 zones, 1 is for hot water only, the others downstairs and upstairs.

THE ALM

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Thanks Deezell, and that is what I thought, but it seems they just didn't know how to do it with Hive, which made no sense to me. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get into the technical details too much with him as I was at work when they called back. I have 3 zones, 1 is for hot water only, the others downstairs and upstairs.

Should be straight forward with Hive as you would need the Heating/Hot water Active kit (I assume this is what bord gais install as standard) which would control one zone plus the hot water with the additional multizone thermostat for the other zone.

deezell

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Thanks Deezell, and that is what I thought, but it seems they just didn't know how to do it with Hive, which made no sense to me. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get into the technical details too much with him as I was at work when they called back. I have 3 zones, 1 is for hot water only, the others downstairs and upstairs.

I should have assumed one zone was HW, so you only need two smart stats as TheAlm says. Your cylinder HW stat remains and you can optionally control HW timing from one of the smart stats HW extension box/ kit. Some installer if he couldn't tell you that.

deezell

Though just to be fair to the installer, he was sent out possibly with a single stat. Or else it was the pumped rather than zone valve nature of the installation that threw him. In a system when the zones are determined by pumps, the stat is used to turn on/off each zone pump. These stats also have to call the boiler, but if you combine the three stat calls for heat voltages, then any stat will turn on all three pumps. Motorised valve systems have relays so each valve can independently call the boiler. Pumps don't, so you have to route the zone stat voltages through a relay box which will call the boiler and power the designated pump only for any given stat call . Perhaps you have one of these boxes or an electrician made up version of one. It shouldn't matter as all the installer has to do is replace the old walk stats with the smart, and insert the smart HW relay in series with the existing cylinder stat wiring.

jaggiebunnet

thanks guys, makes sense. Doesn't surprise me that they had no idea what to do tbh which is why I am wondering if it is better to just get someone who does know what he is at and buy the stuff myself. I am going to read up on the other options first though.

DoubleJoe7

We're looking to get a new boiler, one with three zones - downstairs, upstairs and water. Is there a smartheating system that works with Google Assitant/Google Home that can control all three?

Caillte

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

We're looking to get a new boiler, one with three zones - downstairs, upstairs and water. Is there a smartheating system that works with Google Assitant/Google Home that can control all three?

I would highly recommend Tado.

Calibos

Ordered a Hive system with Multizone on Sunday. Happened to check up on Hive again mere hours before the end of their 20% off Summer discount offer. Ordered straight away without installation for €254. Was going to have to pay €100 for a replacement for our broken Sunvic 307 Controller anyway. Baxi Boiler, 3 electric zone valves for Hot water, Upstairs and Downstairs CH. Thermostat already on Hot Water Cylinder. I gather thats its a reasonably simple DIY swap out. Wish me luck!

deezell

Calibos wrote: »

Ordered a Hive system with Multizone on Sunday. Happened to check up on Hive again mere hours before the end of their 20% off Summer discount offer. Ordered straight away without installation for €254. Was going to have to pay €100 for a replacement for our broken Sunvic 307 Controller anyway. Baxi Boiler, 3 electric zone valves for Hot water, Upstairs and Downstairs CH. Thermostat already on Hot Water Cylinder. I gather thats its a reasonably simple DIY swap out. Wish me luck!

I hope it is simple. From what I've read the Hive receiver is either single zone (CH) or dual zone (CH and HW), You have three zones, two CH, so you may need an extra Hive stat and a single zone receiver for the extra heating zone. I dont see any mention of a three zone receiver in their support or installation material. The wallplate for your Sunvic has an extra pair of pins for the third zone, it may not fit the Hive receiver directly, and if it does, the last zone will unconnected.

Calibos

deezell wrote: »

I hope it is simple. From what I've read the Hive receiver is either single zone (CH) or dual zone (CH and HW), You have three zones, two CH, so you may need an extra Hive stat and a single zone receiver for the extra heating zone. I dont see any mention of a three zone receiver in their support or installation material. The wallplate for your Sunvic has an extra pair of pins for the third zone, it may not fit the Hive receiver directly, and if it does, the last zone will unconnected.

It arrived today. Very quick. I got the Multizone with it. The main pack comes with the Hub that connects to your Router for Smartphone use, a wireless receiver box for Hot Water and a 1 heating zone and the fancy wireless thermostat/controller. Second box comes with another wireless receiver box for the second heating zone and another wireless Thermostat/controller.

I knew it wasn't going to be a straight swap onto the old Sunvic controller wall plate and there was going to some wiring of the in situ cables into the appropriate connectors on the Hive Receiver boxes with some bridging cables between the Hot Water/Heating Zone receiver and the Heating Zone only Receiver.

My only concern with regard to DIY wiring this was if I hadn't anticipated any extra cabling needing to be run to the Controller mount location but I don't think there is anything to worry about. I think when people run into trouble is when they want to add a thermostat from their hotwater cylinder to the controller location if they didn't already have one (I do) or if they had old thermostat cabling running from the boiler to old zones instead of a central location making the bridging of the Hive Mulitzone controllers nearly impossible etc. (I don't).

Hopefully I get a chance later to fit the kit. Off to do the weeks grocery shopping and cook dinner now though.

deezell

You're on the money. Very simple connect from the old sunvic baseplate cables to the two receivers. You'll just have to jumper the live mains to the second receiver with a short bit of cable. That's a lot of kit for the money, pretty much two systems for the price of one.

Calibos

deezell wrote: »

You're on the money. Very simple connect from the old sunvic baseplate cables to the two receivers. You'll just have to jumper the live mains to the second receiver with a short bit of cable. That's a lot of kit for the money, pretty much two systems for the price of one.

20% off helped but even more so, ordering it without installation saved a big wedge too.

Did I mention

;) that I troubleshooted a dead electric Velux roof window and localised the problem to Christmas Decoration boxes knocking off the switched outlet for it deep in the depths of the attic, and while up on the ladder at the Velux worked out how to remove the window and got out on the roof to personally inspect our leaking zinc dormer and also discovered and repaired 3 slipped roof slates that had opened up gaps? I was on a DIY roll this week and the burst of confidence got me thinking about the Hive again as a replacement for our broken Sunvic when I was reminded about the boiler service falling due again. Fingers crossed its a hatrick of successful DIY jobs this week! LOL

deezell

That's about €500 worth right there. The "leaky tile" travelling repair men won't be getting 3 grand off you anytime soon.
Just make sure mains is off to sunvic and boiler before swapping, use a phase tester screwdriver which I'm sure you have. FWIW Tado even include a little phase tester in their stat kit.

Calibos

All Done!!

Got some help over on the Boards Plumbing and Heating forum from their Hive expert and Mod DGOB's specific to my wiring. Harvested some 3 core from an old kettle cable to make the Bridges for Neutral, Live and Earth from the Dual Receiver to the Multizone Single Receiver and an extension with connection block for the Upstairs Zone Cable so it could reach over to the location for the Single Zone Receiver. A defunct Bridging cable used in the Sunvic backplate was re-used as a bridging cable between Live and connection point #1 on the Single Receiver as instructed by DGOB's.

Soon as the system was setup the Hot Water came on straight away obviously called by the Hot Water Cylinder Thermostat. The hot Water had been off for 18 hours at this point so had cooled down, so the Hot Water coming on straight away automatically after Hive setup was a very good sign.

Absolutely thrilled that everything went well with the self install thanks to your help Deezell and DGOB's. Hive with Multizone for €254! Woohoo!!

Can get the Boiler serviced now. If the Service Engineer asks when or who installed the Hive, do I inform him I wired it up myself or tell him I hired a plumber or electrician? ie. Will I get myself in trouble or lose warranty on service etc etc if Bord Gais know I bought and self installed the Hive system??

deezell

Tbh a boiler service is independent of heating controls. You haven't changed anything in relation to boiler or plumbing. Once he can fire the boiler that's all he needs.

Dr.Winston O'Boogie

Hi all, I have a netatmo smart thermostat installed in the current house. I am moving to a new house in the next 2 months and want to take the thermostat with me. Who would be best placed to remove the smart thermostat, and install a manual one?

We got the smart thermostat installed via energia when we got a boiler service so just not sure who to contact? Electrician perhaps?

deezell

Dr.Winston O'Boogie wrote: »

Hi all, I have a netatmo smart thermostat installed in the current house. I am moving to a new house in the next 2 months and want to take the thermostat with me. Who would be best placed to remove the smart thermostat, and install a manual one?

We got the smart thermostat installed via energia when we got a boiler service so just not sure who to contact? Electrician perhaps?

A minutes work for an electrician. two wires from the netatmo back to two wires of the manual stat. I'm assuming the netatmo replaced an original wired wall stat in the same position. If not the netatmo will be connected to the boiler via it's wireless relay.For wired, removing is the opposite of installation, see here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm_ELxzOfw0
If your Netatmo is connected wirelessly to its relay which in turn is connected to the boiler, you will have to wire the manual stat to the boiler if these wires are not already in place.

dball

After all the talking and questions here - (Thanks Deezel for all you advice too) I was going to pay for the Tado system through their rental offer. Only to find out its no longer available from Ireland - Have to purchase outright!
PITA, anyone know where i can get a discount code or is there an alternative to buying direct?

I have a friend in the UK whom I might get to purchase through rental but - could be messy

FFS

deezell

dball wrote: »

After all the talking and questions here - (Thanks Deezel for all you advice too) I was going to pay for the Tado system through their rental offer. Only to find out its no longer available from Ireland - Have to purchase outright!
PITA, anyone know where i can get a discount code or is there an alternative to buying direct?

I have a friend in the UK whom I might get to purchase through rental but - could be messy

FFS

The Version 3 Kit is £163 on Amazon at the moment, If you want a couple of Smart radiator valve to spice it up these are £59 each at the moment. Thats £281.

If you buy it the other way around, the V3 smart Radiator valve kit with 2 smart stats is currently at £138 for vertical stats.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MDRBPTT?aaxitk=gJUTqBRYGzKw8T-MPdSj5A&pd_rd_i=B01MDRBPTT&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=5525970907818403459&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_i=tado&hsa_cr_id=2020068280802

Add the wall thermostat to this for only £89 and you have the same kit for only £227 with free delivery. Thats like getting the V3 Thermosat kit for £109 and adding 2 rad stats.

GarIT

deezell wrote: »

The Version 3 Kit is £163 on Amazon at the moment, If you want a couple of Smart radiator valve to spice it up these are £59 each at the moment. Thats £281.

If you buy it the other way around, the V3 smart Radiator valve kit with 2 smart stats is currently at £138 for vertical stats.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MDRBPTT?aaxitk=gJUTqBRYGzKw8T-MPdSj5A&pd_rd_i=B01MDRBPTT&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=5525970907818403459&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_i=tado&hsa_cr_id=2020068280802

Add the wall thermostat to this for only £89 and you have the same kit for only £227 with free delivery. Thats like getting the V3 Thermosat kit for £109 and adding 2 rad stats.

I'm still trying to work out the right system and it's getting annoying. I contacted them to ask if the I can not get a smart thermostat and instead get the extension kit and smart radiator thermostats, and the answer I got was the radiator thermostats cannot communicate with the boiler directly so a smart thermostat is needed to be wired to the boiler, but that's the purpose of the extension kit

Caillte

GarIT wrote: »

I'm still trying to work out the right system and it's getting annoying. I contacted them to ask if the I can not get a smart thermostat and instead get the extension kit and smart radiator thermostats, and the answer I got was the radiator thermostats cannot communicate with the boiler directly so a smart thermostat is needed to be wired to the boiler, but that's the purpose of the extension kit

I dont have a tado smart thermostat but I have 6 tado TRVs working with my nest thermostat. But If I could I would have bought and stuck with only one eco system. The things will pay for themselves in the long run.

PS if you go with the TRVs ignore the battery low emails. I got my first email about low battery months ago and the thing is still running fine.

GarIT

I chased them up on it and got an answer that is correct but shows that it's not well designed. Even if you have the extension kit wired to the boiler and a smart radiator thermostat on every radiator you must have a smart thermostat (non-radiator) or the heat will never turn on. They can communicate with each other but the software does not allow the radiator thermostat to call for heat unless non-radiator thermostat is connected to the system.

deezell

GarIT wrote: »

I chased them up on it and got an answer that is correct but shows that it's not well designed. Even if you have the extension kit wired to the boiler and a smart radiator thermostat on every radiator you must have a smart thermostat (non-radiator) or the heat will never turn on. They can communicate with each other but the software does not allow the radiator thermostat to call for heat unless non-radiator thermostat is connected to the system.

I posted that fact some time ago, I think the clue is in the name, the extension kit extends the function of the wall stat, adding wireless connection and Hot water control. An extension kit on its own has no function, and can't be used by TRVs to fire the boiler, but TRVs can fire the boiler via a wired wall stat without the extension kit, its not needed, so the stat acts as your wireless relay control for TRVs, as well as functioning as the measuring device where it is located. If this is a room with a TRV, (it should be if you're trying to implement a full TRV only installation), then the wall stat is assigned as the measuring device for that TRV, giving more accurate control in that room and a temperature granularity of 0.1° ( TRVs are 1°). If you've installed only TRVs and bridge, adding a wall stat to relay to the boiler is only £89 from Amazon this minute.

skerry

Amazing price on the Tado V2 Smart thermostat Starter kit from O2 in UK. £49.99

https://www.o2.co.uk/shop/tado/smart-thermostat-starter-kit-v2#contractType=nonconnected?cm_mmc=affiliate-_-47868-_-blank-_-blank&awc=3235_1529518828_7c096bd999827c9ebcd2f526db4040a4

Use code ACCESSORY20 and it brings it down to an eye watering £39.99. Brilliant price for anyone looking to get Smart setup for their house.

Have 2 already and trying to justify getting a 3rd but seeing as I have 2 TRVs also I can't think of why I'd need another. Paid a lot more for my ones.

Enjoy