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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Quin_Dub

This thread is for the continuing discussion of Donald Trumps's presidency in the US and any related matters.

Please ensure that you are familiar with the charter before posting.

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[Deleted User]

Phonehead wrote: »

We are all appalled by NK but I'm failing to see how this meeting and the muted concessions can be seen as any form of success story for anyone other than Kim. The military exercises were always something that the NK regime despised.

I'm off the opinion that the US should get out of SK pretty much entirely and park their subs in international waters within firing distance of Pyongyang.

Troops on the ground are only needed for an invasion. The exercises are an expensive show of force and if getting rid of them helps move things forward, then so be it. The troops are remaining and repeated drills are not needed to wage warfare.

Since I would consider their stopping to be vital, I barely think of it as a concession. There's really not much Kim can do to make it even so it's not considered a concession by those who want to paint it that way.

Phonehead

We are all appalled by NK but I'm failing to see how this meeting and the muted concessions can be seen as any form of success story for anyone other than Kim. The military exercises were always something that the NK regime despised.

[Deleted User]

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are calm yet post things like

Hardly adding to the debate.

That was clearly satire. I literally said "I'm going to hate Trump now."

Leroy42 wrote: »

Again, you made the statement that the DNC and CNN would be better to give Trump the credit he deserves. Many have posted out that there is very little to actually give credit for and in addition highlighted the clear hypocrisy in how Trump dealt with Iran (and was roundly cheered by the GOP and FOX) and this.

All I said was they should congratulate him for him "accomplishment". I believe I wrote that before any details actually came out and "congratulations for an accomplishment" is vastly different to "give him the credit he deserves". Worlds apart.

Most people see this as a step in the right direction while CNN are saying that Trump is putting NK on the same level as Canada because the White House published what they'd eat for lunch.

Why not say "Trump seems to have handled this as well as could be expected.". He has after all.

Leroy42 wrote: »

You find it hard to get anywhere because you don't make any points to discuss. And when challenged you revert to claiming that nobody is listening to you.

I have defended myself repeatedly on here and never make stuff up about other posters. There's a constant barrage of nonsense being hurled at me here with new posters entering and not looking at anything I've written.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm calm actually. I just realise this is pointless because three or four posters, including yourself see me as a caricature, and are attributing things to me I never said or meant.

No Nody, I don't. I hate Trump now. Your points were astonishingly effective.

You are calm yet post things like

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

Hardly adding to the debate.

Again, you made the statement that the DNC and CNN would be better to give Trump the credit he deserves. Many have posted out that there is very little to actually give credit for and in addition highlighted the clear hypocrisy in how Trump dealt with Iran (and was roundly cheered by the GOP and FOX) and this.

You find it hard to get anywhere because you don't make any points to discuss. And when challenged you revert to claiming that nobody is listening to you.

[Deleted User]

Phonehead wrote: »

In all due respect Ads, when people ask you for backup to support your claims you can't always just fallback on **** trump*** useless. I genuinely want to understand what I am missing and want Trump supporters to explain, i want you to explain as I most likely do have unconscious bias towards Trump.

I'm not a Trump supporter. I just see him as another shltty American president in a long run of them.

weisses wrote: »

What are you trying to answer ?

There is no deal, zip, nada

It was a 20 million circle jerk performed by 2 narcissists

Kim was working for years towards this moment, not caring for one bit who was in the white house

Which is why I said earlier:

Peregrinus, if NK had tested a thermonuclear bomb at the start of Obama's or Bush's presidency, they'd have almost certainly met NK just like Trump did. Likewise, Hillary would probably meet if she were president.

I don't see anything special in what Trump has done. I have not claimed that once in this thread. Every president would have done the same and whoever happens to be presidents of SK and the US while this happens are achieving something.

I have been appalled by NK for around 15 years and unlike most here, see it as a massive issue and not just a thing Trump has to deal with.

I can continue to post here as the middle ground, but only if posters stop blatantly lying about what I've said. It's ridiculous that you all picture me wearing a MAGA hat. I honestly think some of you are trying to make me get myself banned so you don't have to listen to any dissent.

weisses

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the point in even trying to answer. I'll just join you guys.

**** TRUMP. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

What are you trying to answer ?

There is no deal, zip, nada

It was a 20 million circle jerk performed by 2 narcissists

Kim was working for years towards this moment, not caring for one bit who was in the white house

Phonehead

In all due respect Ads, when people ask you for backup to support your claims you can't always just fallback on **** trump*** useless. I genuinely want to understand what I am missing and want Trump supporters to explain, i want you to explain as I most likely do have unconscious bias towards Trump.

[Deleted User]

I'm calm actually. I just realise this is pointless because three or four posters, including yourself see me as a caricature, and are attributing things to me I never said or meant.

No Nody, I don't. I hate Trump now. Your points were astonishingly effective.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

Care to actually answer the question of why Trump's deal is special and will somehow be followed when all previous deals have not been followed? I mean you're the one claiming that this is a big deal; I'm the one claiming it's a nothing burger with Trump giving up power and backed up the reasons with facts why I claim this is the case.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

You need to calm down. Nobody is saying this.

people are questioning the outcome, it is Trump himself that is claiming it is great, many of his supporters claiming he deserved a Noble simply for turning up.

Most posters,(there might be one of two I skimmed over) have shown a very measured response. They are glad it happened, hopeful that something can develop, but question the fact that we have two clearly untrustworthy leaders.

And claiming that something will happen in time. The US has already give Kim the 1st thing he wanted. Surely Trump should have got something in return? This is the greatest deal maker ever (according to him) so people are rightfully asking where the benefit is.

We know the negatives with Trump, and many Trump supporters claim that the negatives are worth it for what he brings. Like with the tax plan, it seems that Trump deals are about costs up front and placing trust in his promises.

RIGOLO

According to CNN the sanctions stay in place.
The UN Security council approved sanctions, the ones signed off by Russia and China stay in place until 'denuclearisation' is confirmed.

So Kim has won nothing yet until he delivers on the agreement. Trump still holds the best hand.
Its early days folks, people should get some perspective on how these things work, and also on the timeframe. It will be weeks and months for this to work through, only then can final judgment be passed.
Theres also reports Trump pitched the idea of 'hotels and resorts' to Kim. What a guy, you gotta luv that, in the midst of the biggest negotiations in US- NK relations in 55 years, Trump ever the successful buisnessman tells Kim he has some great locations to setup a few hotels to capture the China and SK market..

aloyisious

It's funny peculiar that Don might have paved the way for a greater degree of war-unreadiness on the Korean Peninsula with the undiplomatic way he's out-dictated [or bullied] Kin into submission, that Kim met a US leader prepared to swing the stick and let it be known openly.
I don't trust Don and reckon there's a chance that he did what he did regardless of the chance he'd be called on it, especially by a dictator who, going by Don's stated intent, had nothing to lose by going to actual war with the US. The Chinese have been [apparently] very quiet lately in regard to NK and it's future. I suppose it may be the 10-year planning way they do things, thinking along to the 2nd next US presidential election sitter-in-the-W/H and how things are fluid.

If there actually is a peace out of all the shouting, and Don's stick-waving mention today on more sanctions on NK, I hope Don doesn't spoil it all by a tweet out of nowhere insulting Kim and/od the Chinese and wrecking all the groundwork by his fellow US citizens, and Korean citizens on the 38th parallel. That would almost be par for the course for Don, a throwaway remark on twitter.

[Deleted User]

Nody wrote: »

You mean the same way "if it has worked" in the previous programs and deals with NK? You know the same deals that NK has broken every time? Can you please share what makes this deal struck with US so special compared to the previous deals that were broken? Is it that Trump is seen as a trustworthy leader to sticks to his deals? Or that Trump is seen as a calm negotiator that ensures that both parties are happy? Or perhaps that Trump has been consistent in his message with NK?

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

Banned for trolling.

listermint

Christy42 wrote: »

The US will not pull out of South Korea. They will stop doing military exercises. North Korea had effectively already given up on missile tests (until it gets a new base up and running).

This is the end of it. This is the start of a long road. Trump certainly did not get a win out of this. That potential comes later. Trump got nothing but the start of dialogue. NK got the start of a dialogue they always wanted and the US to stop the shows of power in the region.

Very little gained or lost from either side. Not surprising from a few weeks of negotiations between officials.

Certainly it feels like North Korea got more out of it (as in something) but a very minor victory. Over reactions on either side are not really warranted.

Not a disaster for either side but it certainly shows up the Fox news hypocrisy who lambasted Obama for suggesting a similar summit (and indeed for achieving far more with Iran).

Hopefully it leads to more.

And there in lies the key.

1 President achieves a huge amount of diplomacy and gets through brokerage manages to achieve great concessions and some stability in the region.

Another tears that same deal down and gets nothing out of another deal and he lauded.

Strange times.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

You are aware that if this actually works out, today was the start of a process? Stopping the exercises and aiming for a removal of troops would have to happen no matter what. What could Kim have realistically agreed to today to make it "even"?

Your entire post sounds like you think this is the work done and Trump and Moon will walk away.

You mean the same way "if it has worked" in the previous programs and deals with NK? You know the same deals that NK has broken every time? Can you please share what makes this deal struck with US so special compared to the previous deals that were broken? Is it that Trump is seen as a trustworthy leader who sticks to his deals? Or that Trump is seen as a calm negotiator that ensures that both parties are happy? Or perhaps that Trump has been consistent in his message with NK? Seriously; do please share what makes this deal special that it will suddenly work when all previous deals have failed sooner or later due to NK ignoring their side of the deals.

Phonehead

Ok, so essentially no more Military exercises for a commitment to consider denuclearization. I wasn't a fan of Obama but he'd be crucified for such a terrible outcome.

RobertKK

Time will ultimately decide how successful this summit was, for the world we all hope it is a success.

The status quo towards North Korea has been a failure up to now, so lets hope this new approach actually works, too soon to know the real outcome, but to be talking and shaking hands is always better than alternatives which include war.

[Deleted User]

weisses wrote: »

And Kim is not giving up his nukes .. ever

So what is actually achieved ?

What's the point in even trying to answer. I'll just join you guys.

**** TRUMP. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Who are you arguing with here?

Deleted User wrote: »

The best thing the Democrats and CNN could do today would be to congratulate Trump on his achievement. Immediately, their other criticisms would regain an audience. Most people ignore it because it's all negative even though America is booming and people are happy./QUOTE]

You are saying that people should give credit to Trump. I am pointing out that Trump hasn't achieved very much at all.

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

You've got a severe lack of comprehension skills.

Il award that particular trophy to yourself.

I shall ask again in simpler terms.

If NK had done similar nuclear testing back in Obamas day and Obama had gone off to summit such as this. Would you have changed your tune and been 'pro summit' or not.

Now your previous post was that so what if id be against it, different sides.

Have you changed your position or is it still the same answer?

weisses

Deleted User wrote: »

The troops are going nowhere.

And Kim is not giving up his nukes .. ever

So what is actually achieved ?

Christy42

The US will not pull out of South Korea. They will stop doing military exercises. North Korea had effectively already given up on missile tests (until it gets a new base up and running).

This is the end of it. This is the start of a long road. Trump certainly did not get a win out of this. That potential comes later. Trump got nothing but the start of dialogue. NK got the start of a dialogue they always wanted and the US to stop the shows of power in the region.

Very little gained or lost from either side. Not surprising from a few weeks of negotiations between officials.

Certainly it feels like North Korea got more out of it (as in something) but a very minor victory. Over reactions on either side are not really warranted.

Not a disaster for either side but it certainly shows up the Fox news hypocrisy who lambasted Obama for suggesting a similar summit (and indeed for achieving far more with Iran).

Hopefully it leads to more.

Podge_irl

Phonehead wrote: »

So US withdrawal of military for just the promise of denuclearization (keeping in mind that we effing knew his testing program was gone after the mountain caved in) Kim just hit a home run

They haven't promised denuclearization. They've reaffirmed a commitment to work towards it, which basically means nothing.

[Deleted User]

Phonehead wrote: »

So US withdrawal of military for just the promise of denuclearization

The troops are going nowhere.

[Deleted User]

listermint wrote: »

Apologies ? You said 'so what' thats what different sides do..

So you basically said you are all for Trump having these meetings but obama not. Did you even read the post you responded to?

I dont believe you did.

Il wait for my apology.... or not. im not too bothered really.

You've got a severe lack of comprehension skills.

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about?

Quotes or apologise.

Apologies ? You said 'so what' thats what different sides do..

So you basically said you are all for Trump having these meetings but obama not. Did you even read the post you responded to?

I dont believe you did.

Il wait for my apology.... or not. im not too bothered really.

Phonehead

So US withdrawal of military for just the promise of denuclearization (keeping in mind that we effing knew his testing program was gone after the mountain caved in) Kim just hit a home run

[Deleted User]

Nody wrote: »

Read the actual agreed text; read the expert opinions on the subject. I'm not pulling things out of thin air here for fun; I've yet to see anyone who's actually said this is a big step forward. All Trump has done is to agree to pull back forces and not have military exercises there while acknowledging NK as a nuclear nation (not done previously by US), agree that NK will only remove nukes on a global scale along Russia & US (i.e. never) and make some vague promises about future deals without even touching on for example the ballistic missile program (you know one of the major reasons to pull out of the Iran deal except NK can actually shoot to US mainland with their program) or monitoring of NK nuclear program (second claimed reason for US pulling out of the Iran deal with it being not effective enough).

Hence yes; in short Trump has given up several items while getting nothing back and claiming victory.

You are aware that if this actually works out, today was the start of a process? Stopping the exercises and aiming for a removal of troops would have to happen no matter what. What could Kim have realistically agreed to today to make it "even"?

Your entire post sounds like you think this is the work done and Trump and Moon will walk away.

[Deleted User]

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is true that it is a pathway to peace, but they are clearly concessions.

The US has demanded NK disarm prior to holding any talks up until now. Under Trump not only have they conceded that, they have also agreed to pulling out of the peninsula altogether. The statement said denuke of the peninsula, not simply NK. It is a major difference.

In saying that, it is clearly a price worth paying. But what will SK think of US basically upping sticks and leaving?

But to try to paint it as some great deal by Trump is simply not true. I agree with him doing this btw, but lets not pretend that Trump has somehow landed an incredible victory. What he should be given credit for is having the balls to give up on all the conditions that stopped this from happening in previous years.

And the US taken such a stance earlier, it could be argued that NK would have never felt the need to develop the weapons in the 1st place.

Who are you arguing with here?

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

If that's how you want to see it, I can't change that.

Read the actual agreed text; read the expert opinions on the subject. I'm not pulling things out of thin air here for fun; I've yet to see anyone who's actually said this is a big step forward. All Trump has done is to agree to pull back forces and not have military exercises there while acknowledging NK as a nuclear nation (not done previously by US), agree that NK will only remove nukes on a global scale along Russia & US (i.e. never) and make some vague promises about future deals without even touching on for example the ballistic missile program (you know one of the major reasons to pull out of the Iran deal except NK can actually shoot to US mainland with their program) or monitoring of NK nuclear program (second claimed reason for US pulling out of the Iran deal with it being not effective enough).

Hence yes; in short Trump has given up several items while getting nothing back and claiming victory.