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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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martyboy48

OOnegative wrote: »

Currently 79kgs and hope to be below 75kgs come Köln.

Fooking lightweight

I'm bang on 86kgs right now. Really have to sort this out. Would like to get to about the 78kg mark for DCM and just have a good run. I'm 6ft tall(OK maybe 5'11:D) so I'd be happy with that weight and see how my running ties in with it.
Currently carrying most of the weight in my belly. A right sized keg I'm lugging around

OOnegative

martyboy48 wrote: »

Currently carrying most of the weight in my belly. A right sized keg I'm lugging around

Party Marty is still alive and well!!!!!

Ardennes1944

Im 188cm and 84kgs, i had planned to try and lose some weight just to be more "marathon runner frame like" but ended up staying on weight workouts too and still weight the exact same 14 weeks into marathon plan

and still ricky villa

I hadn't thought about it much lately.
I tried to trim down a bit for Rotterdam last year but wound up very flu prone at about 72kg.
Weighed myself on Saturday and am at 80kg now (I'm 5'11")
When I wander onto the darkside and swim and bike more my weight tends to be about 82-84kg but I look healthier

shotgunmcos

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

Im 188cm and 84kgs, i had planned to try and lose some weight just to be more "marathon runner frame like" but ended up staying on weight workouts too and still weight the exact same 14 weeks into marathon plan

That's not too bad you are fairly tall! Were you lean to begin with? You may have just built lean weight in that 14 weeks. I was 84kg and 181cm. I probably look more capable of playing a rugby match that running a 3hour marathon. My average is about 80kg and I can get it lower but that won't happen in 14 weeks.

shotgunmcos

and still ricky villa wrote: »

When I wander onto the darkside and swim and bike more my weight tends to be about 82-84kg but I look healthier

LOL I'm around 82kg now and at the weekend my Dad said I look great. Been out running 5 weeks and the runner tan etc..

Thing is I drop a few kg and get closer to race weigh and all of a sudden the family will be asking of I am ok, eating right, sleeping right, stressed out?!

Then again, are those not the general symptoms for marathon runners....

and still ricky villa

shotgunmcos wrote: »

LOL I'm around 82kg now and at the weekend my Dad said I look great. Been out running 5 weeks and the runner tan etc..

Thing is I drop a few kg and get closer to race weigh and all of a sudden the family will be asking of I am ok, eating right, sleeping right, stressed out?!

Then again, are those not the general symptoms for marathon runners....

I get that too
"You'd think with all that running you wouldn't look like skin draped over bones"

I've a big head too so losing weight makes me look a lot worse
I did a lot of weight training for a half Ironman and felt super human so am keeping a bit of it up with the latest sub 3 attempt. I worry about that feeling of hitting high miles and being made of glass. I've been lucky with injury in the past but don't want to take it for granted either

Ardennes1944

shotgunmcos wrote: »

That's not too bad you are fairly tall! Were you lean to begin with? You may have just built lean weight in that 14 weeks. I was 84kg and 181cm. I probably look more capable of playing a rugby match that running a 3hour marathon. My average is about 80kg and I can get it lower but that won't happen in 14 weeks.

I'm pretty lean naturally and dont have much fat, but I do think it will count against me in some way towards the end, but lets see

Testosterscone

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Then again, are those not the general symptoms for marathon runners....

A few of us in the club often make the joke that you know you are in good marathon shape when your family make reference to how sickly you look.

Currently I am sitting around 62/63kg at 5ft7. Rarely go too far one way or the other though and generally don't track weight but try look after the food aspect simply because it keeps me between the ditches (fit and healthy for most part)

hot buttered scones

Interesting discussion. I'm 6ft and currently haven't weighed myself in 4 weeks or so due to the fact I've been doing shag all! But I usually feel my best for training and racing in around 74-76kg. Whenever I go to 73 or lower I start to feel like crap - very fatigued, finding it hard to train properly etc. I always know I'm too heavy when the mother says I'm looking well!

Swashbuckler

People have stopped telling me how bad I look. They learned eventually when I stopped responding and just gave them the eyes. I'm ~6ft and weigh 69kg (152lbs). A lot of that has come off in the last year. No coincidence that my times have also come down.

I'm not a marathoner so not sure if I belong in this conversation

healy1835

Swashbuckler wrote: »

People have stopped telling me how bad I look. They learned eventually when I stopped responding and just gave them the eyes. I'm ~6ft and weigh 69kg (152lbs). A lot of that has come off in the last year. No coincidence that my times have also come down.

I'm not a marathoner so not sure if I belong in this conversation

Yet......

Itziger

Testosterscone wrote: »

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Then again, are those not the general symptoms for marathon runners....

A few of us in the club often make the joke that you know you are in good marathon shape when your family make reference to how sickly you look.

Currently I am sitting around 62/63kg at 5ft7. Rarely go too far one way or the other though and generally don't track weight but try look after the food aspect simply because it keeps me between the ditches (fit and healthy for most part)

I think I'm in shape when I get the Chris Froome arms. Jeez, I really should do a tiny bit of lifting, even if it's just a couple of litre milk cartons

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote: »

Yet......

These 5k's are too much fun. haha

muloc

Hello,
Is there a general consensus on the best training plan out there for a 3 hour marathon?
Thanks

davedanon

muloc wrote: »

Hello,
Is there a general consensus on the best training plan out there for a 3 hour marathon?
Thanks

The short, but accurate, answer would be: No.

davedanon

However, you will receive no end of useful and well-intentioned advice here, on the upside. All you have to do is figure out what works for you. With luck it will only take one marathon cycle.

Ardennes1944

This is the plan I have been using, done one full set until the taper weeks with some double weeks for 7,8,9,10 and now starting over again at week 4 after a 2 week break
https://www.google.ch/amp/s/bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marathon-a-just-enough-training-approach/amp/

rooneyjm

muloc wrote: »

Hello,
Is there a general consensus on the best training plan out there for a 3 hour marathon?
Thanks

No. (I had typed a long winded reply but the answer is still No)

ultrapercy

davedanon wrote: »

However, you will receive no end of useful and well-intentioned advice here, on the upside. All you have to do is figure out what works for you. With luck it will only take one marathon cycle.

Or 25 years.

martyboy48

muloc wrote: »

Hello,
Is there a general consensus on the best training plan out there for a 3 hour marathon?
Thanks

davedanon wrote: »

The short, but accurate, answer would be: No.

davedanon wrote: »

However, you will receive no end of useful and well-intentioned advice here, on the upside. All you have to do is figure out what works for you. With luck it will only take one marathon cycle.

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

This is the plan I have been using, done one full set until the taper weeks with some double weeks for 7,8,9,10 and now starting over again at week 4 after a 2 week break
https://www.google.ch/amp/s/bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marathon-a-just-enough-training-approach/amp/

rooneyjm wrote: »

No. (I had typed a long winded reply but the answer is still No)

ultrapercy wrote: »

Or 25 years.

.............. But it's all about the journey to your destination

rooneyjm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5

Total..........158...........181.5

Week 4 of 18 complete, only 5 days running this week. Flew out on holidays on Thursday, got the 6 mile tempo done before we left. Had to do the 6 x 800m on a thread mill as it’s 28 degrees ontside. Few other thread mill runs but missed the 8 mile Sunday run. Just try keep it going as best I can while away without disrupting the holiday too much. I can just say this week is a rest week.

Did 7 miles outside yesterday in the heat and my legs felt like lead.

NeedsTraining

Any sub 3 target individuals or groups run in Phoenix park on a Saturday morning?

The long runs are getting a bit boring by myself

noelearly

NeedsTraining wrote: »

Any sub 3 target individuals or groups run in Phoenix park on a Saturday morning?

The long runs are getting a bit boring by myself

Take the plunge and join a club. I did it myself last year. Makes things a bit easier

and still ricky villa

Article on cumulative fatigue as it relates to the Hansons plan
https://hansonscoachingservices.com/my-observations-from-fall-marathon-training-2016/?mc_cid=bb7edc2be9&mc_eid=6a84aee8ab

shotgunmcos

I'm reading Hanson at the moment. I honestly prefer the sound of the approach vs P&D. My best Marathon came off a diet of 16 mile runs with "stuff" every other week. Thing is each long run followed a long bike and short run off that bike, the day before. I probably never ran a LR fresh in training. There wasn't much rest on the Monday either as training for Triathlon I usually had a VO2max bike session on the tuesday with a 5k run off it. I pretty much carried the cumulative fatigue week on week and caught up on the recovery weeks, which were more frequent than the P&D schedule. I only tapered a week or so for the Marathon and ran an unexpected PB.

Thing is I underestimated the recovery from that Marathon and plugged away with training. Hindsight being 20-20 and all that I can honestly say I over reached soon after which affected my A goal of the season. The thing about the Hanson method (or version of it) is you run a fine line, excuse the pun!

squinn2912

That’s massive training! I agree while the Hanson approach seems appealing and short cut in nature I think I prefer the P&D approach myself. I’m currently deciding between following P&D or going with a coach to make my programme. Inclined to sway towards giving the coach a go. I was put off by a negative experience with a coach before

shotgunmcos

squinn2912 wrote: »

That’s massive training! I agree while the Hanson approach seems appealing and short cut in nature I think I prefer the P&D approach myself. I’m currently deciding between following P&D or going with a coach to make my programme. Inclined to sway towards giving the coach a go. I was put off by a negative experience with a coach before

I've had both. A good and not good experience. I'm also a Life Coach so I get both ends and understand the benefits of coaching. With the better of the 2 experiences I had I used to get more context about the "why" of the program rather than simply execute x sessions per week. Nailing sessions was not my problem. Getting in my own way was the reason for the coach. I found that Coach A rarely asked me questions, dished out templates (my mate and I received identical programmes one week). I was a novice at that sport but not sport in general. I also make plans for a living and can spot laziness a mile away

Anyway back to P&D and Hanson for the book plans

Key differences are
P&D
Midweek MLR
LRs up to 22m with MP in a few of them
LR up to 30%+ of weekly volume
Speed peppered over the whole 18 weeks
Program broken into mesocycles with recovery weeks

Hanson
Capped 16m LR every second week
Standalone MP run weekly up to 10m
Speed for first half and MP-10sec over second half
More Easy mileage
Cumulative fatigue

Both have 3 sessions per week with stuff
Speed, Stamina and Long

Biggest difference is
1. Wednesday is rest for Hanson and MLR for P&D
2. Approach to LR is radically different with P&D going for standard approach and Hanson going for capped cumulative fatigue approach.
3. Speed developed early in Hanson vs traditionally later in P&D

The concerns I have about both
P&D
A MLR sandwiched between 2 hard days and significantly after the speed day
Long run up to 22m with a half marathon at MP, I've just never run that long in training and a nigglke can become more on a session like that

Hanson
While overall program mileage is similar (970 Hanson to 1002 P&D) there are just 7LRs capped at 16m
Risk of over reaching

Has anyone the experience of using both approaches or even trialling both before picking one? If there is another thread debating/discussing this topic feel free to point me to it rather than starting again, thanks

rooneyjm

]Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5

Total..........215............214..

Week 5 of 18, only 4 days running this week due to holidays. Flew back Saturday, hoped to get a run in but flight was delayed. Did 15 miles Sunday with 4 @ MP.

Back to the plan this week. Speed 4 x 1200m @ 3.45, tempo gets a bit longer 7miles MP. Only 10 miles Saturday and 8 Sunday which is just as well as it’s my 40th on Sat night.

shotgunmcos

Since I raised the topic here are the plans

Gosh 7 years ago that I ran 3hrs. Went back over the diary back then to check the 18 weeks pre Connemara

Average volume 50m per week, peak was 58m
Long runs every week

Week 1-9 were 16/17m (except for week 5 which was a Half Marathon race)
Week 10-12 were 20,20,19
Week 13 was 20 with 8MP
Week 14 was 16 easy
Week 15 16 progression (30easy, 30MP+10sec, 30MP-10sec, 30easy)
Week 16 14 progression (30e, 20MP+10, 20MP-10, 30e)
Week 17 8 progression (40MP+10, 20MP-10)

Midweek

MLR each week progressing 10-13 miles with 4-10 miles MP
Very few interval sessions but a hard 3-5m off a hard VO2 turbo session every Tuesday - Generally MP-10
Some short progression runs in the last month

I didn't follow a book or coach plan so first impression, considering I was training primarily for Ironman so 8-10hrs a week swimming and biking on top of the running, was It had the look of a marathon plan at least.

The LRs were more P&D but without the MP
The MLRs were more like the Hansons MP tempo session with easy miles either side of the tempo (MP) but I did them on Wednesdays like P&D
The hard Tuesday session was similar to both plans in terms of intensity but more like Hansons Strength (MP-10sec) or P&D LT

Midweek was more like Hansons and the weekend like P&D (except for long 3-5hr bike sessions on Saturdays).

The way I carried the overall training load from week to week was definitely more like Hansons but a LR every Sunday without fail is the key difference. I had more MP miles midweek (circa 80-90m total) than P&D (45 total) but not as much as Hansons (123m total)

The Hansons plan dials 123MP miles into the legs. That's significant MP conditioning. P&D is quite light on MP miles but bunched into 16-18m LRs as 16 with 8, 18 with 10, 16 with 11, 17 with 14.

The thing the bothers me about Hansons is not the cumulative fatigue but the capped 16m and LRs only every other week.
The thing that bothers me about P&D is that those 14-15m Wednesday morning mlrs are a pain and the easiest to miss or cut short with kids etc.
The other thing that bothers me about P&D is that the intensity is sprinkled about the plan with no routine. Some is Monday, some Tuesday and others Friday.

Interesting that LT is the first focus for P&D up to a mad 11m with 7LT on the Friday before a 22m LR, then you layer on a few weeks of 800 and 1600m intervals.

The Hansons plan is more routine and built on 3 SOS days than 3 SOS sessions but the book goes through how you can be more flexible if you need to move things, or miss things or want to add more miles.

Because I believe in dialing a pace into the legs I prefer the Hansons midweek approach. It would be overkill to put P&D weekends on top of it so a balance has to be struck. That balance is with the LRs. Maybe swap the odd midweek MP tempo run for some progression to MP in the LR?