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The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

Long time lurker but first time poster here.As the title suggests. A thread for anyone trying to break 4hrs in the Marathon.
I've had two rather unsuccessful Marathons already. Dublin 2014 and Dublin 2016.
I had no business running Dublin 2014 as I'd only finished couch to 5k at the start of that year after never running before. I got roped into it by a charity that I'm involved in and felt I couldn't say no, but I really wasn't ready for it.
I struggled around in just under 5hrs and didn't enjoy any of it.
2016 was a bit better and I was better prepared and my main goal was to enjoy it. I hadn't much of a base going into Marathon training but I did all the training and came home in 4:25 but more importantly for me anyway was I enjoyed the whole experience from start to finish.
I decided there and then at the finish line though that I wasn't going to do or train for another Marathon until I had a decent base behind me. The next Marathon I did I wanted to give it a proper go.
Since the end of Dublin 2016 I've kept a consistent enough milage of between 25-30miles a week. With various tempo runs and intervals thrown in and a long run when I can.
I haven't done any races since apart from park runs( which I know aren't races) but as a measure of progress my 5km time has dropped from 26 minutes and a bit down to 22:04.
My aim is obviously to go sub 4 in the Dublin Marathon this October.
I haven't decided on a training plan yet but have been reading Hanson's Marathon method book recently.
I realise I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but with being almost 40, and alot of my time taken up with being self employed and having 3 kids under the age of 6 I feel a sub 4hr would be a good achievement for me personally.
Would be interested in hearing from anyone else hoping to go Sub 4hr for the first time also.
Doesn't have to be just the Dublin Marathon either.
Thanks.

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backofthepack

Joining in, ran DCM last year in 4:23, goal is under 4 this year.
Running with a club so i've a coach's plan, i think i can do it if i stay injury free.
My main goal is to enjoy it as much as i did last year, enjoyed every minute, amazing atmosphere.
If i can enjoy it and hit under 4 i'll be thrilled!

eyrie

Question for those of you following (or planning to follow) the grads intermediate plan - how are you fitting in build up races? There aren't any in the plan but it seems like they're important to do, maybe?
I'm still dithering about plans overall but curious about how this would work.

skyblue46

eyrie wrote: »

Question for those of you following (or planning to follow) the grads intermediate plan - how are you fitting in build up races? There aren't any in the plan but it seems like they're important to do, maybe?
I'm still dithering about plans overall but curious about how this would work.

I'm doing this at the moment. Only race I have picked as a definite is the Tullamore half at the end of August. I will be avoiding the race series as if it were a locust ridden plague. I don't plan to taper for any races and to run them how I feel on the day. But like you I could be swayed by advice.

eyrie

skyblue46 wrote: »

I will be avoiding the race series as if it were a locust ridden plague.

:eek: :eek: So you wouldn't recommend them then??

skyblue46 wrote: »

I don't plan to taper for any races and to run them how I feel on the day. But like you I could be swayed by advice.

Interesting. I think I would want to run one or two as reasonably full race efforts (mini taper maybe?) to get a sense of how training is going. It all feels so unknown/unknowable really!

skyblue46

eyrie wrote: »

:eek: :eek: So you wouldn't recommend them then??

Interesting. I think I would want to run one or two as reasonably full race efforts (mini taper maybe?) to get a sense of how training is going. It all feels so unknown/unknowable really!

They don't do sandwiches!!! And I'm working every day they are on. And even if I took the day off parking is a pain.

Thursday is easy miles on the plan, Friday is rest. For me the races will replace the weekend work.

eyrie

skyblue46 wrote: »

They don't do sandwiches!!!

And suddenly it all becomes clear... :pac:

The Black Oil

Right out of the gate the race series doesn't hold huge appeal to me, tbh. Might do the FD10 again, dunno yet. Did it last year during the intermediate, weather was kinder than it was in 2016. It's an enjoyable race, tbf.

Testosterscone

eyrie wrote: »

Interesting. I think I would want to run one or two as reasonably full race efforts (mini taper maybe?) to get a sense of how training is going. It all feels so unknown/unknowable really!

For including races I would usually say keep the week as is, drop session on Saturday for a recovery run (20 min very very light i.e about a min slower than easy) and Race Sunday. If you are only doing a handful of races then missing the long runs for longer races won't make too much difference.

I would still say race full effort but i wouldn't worry too much about tapering you can still perform at a high level without the need to rest up for effectively a week. For the long races though (10m/HM) I would probably change the wednesday session after to an easy run with a few 1 min surges with good recovery.

Hedgehoggy

eyrie wrote: »

Question for those of you following (or planning to follow) the grads intermediate plan - how are you fitting in build up races? There aren't any in the plan but it seems like they're important to do, maybe?
I'm still dithering about plans overall but curious about how this would work.

Did you decide on a plan? I'm dithering about a plan too... Can't make up my mind. Following a half marathon plan that I found someplace but I'm finding the session days a little easy so I'm trying to find something that suits me.....

I'm also planning to do the tullamore half. Did it in 2014 and I thought it was a brilliant race. Thinking of basing my training around my half marathon pace for the time being then assessing where I'm at later in summer. But not sure if that's the right approach

Murph_D

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Did you decide on a plan? I'm dithering about a plan too... Can't make up my mind. Following a half marathon plan that I found someplace but I'm finding the session days a little easy so I'm trying to find something that suits me.....

I'm also planning to do the tullamore half. Did it in 2014 and I thought it was a brilliant race. Thinking of basing my training around my half marathon pace for the time being then assessing where I'm at later in summer. But not sure if that's the right approach

If you are doing Dublin marathon your specific training would be starting usually mid-July (assuming a 17-18 week schedule). I’d forget about a HM plan unless you’ve decided that a half is your goal race. I’d say it’s better to just concentrate on base mileage, a weekly speed session, the odd tempo (maybe at parkrun) and a longer weekend run until start of the marathon block. Stick to the knitting, and keep the main thing the main thing!

Hedgehoggy

Murph_D wrote: »

If you are doing Dublin marathon your specific training would be starting usually mid-July (assuming a 17-18 week schedule). I’d forget about a HM plan unless you’ve decided that a half is your goal race. I’d say it’s better to just concentrate on base mileage, a weekly speed session, the odd tempo (maybe at parkrun) and a longer weekend run until start of the marathon block. Stick to the knitting, and keep the main thing the main thing!

Thanks... Appreciate the advice. Guess I'm not really targeting the half but would like a decent performance before the marathon. Would be aiming for a time of 1:40.

Would this sound like an OK base for the next few weeks?
In line with the plan I was following, currently doing 2 runs of 50-55 mins. One of these might include a tempo effort for some of the session.
1 interval /speed session (this week was 5 x 5mins)
A long run (now up to 100mins - will increase this up to 2 hrs)
A another run which currently 50 mins (planning on upping this each wk too by 10mins)

Murph_D

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Thanks... Appreciate the advice. Guess I'm not really targeting the half but would like a decent performance before the marathon. Would be aiming for a time of 1:40.

Would this sound like an OK base for the next few weeks?
In line with the plan I was following, currently doing 2 runs of 50-55 mins. One of these might include a tempo effort for some of the session.
1 interval /speed session (this week was 5 x 5mins)
A long run (now up to 100mins - will increase this up to 2 hrs)
A another run which currently 50 mins (planning on upping this each wk too by 10mins)

Sounds mostly OK. Wouldn’t bother increasing the long run until you’re into the marathon block - better to introduce a sixth day of around 30-40 mins easy/recovery. Try to get up to at least 35 miles, preferably a little more.

You can run a decent half during the marathon training. 1:40 sounds a tad ambitious for a 4-hr marathoner however, although everyone is different.

skyblue46

Murph_D wrote: »

Sounds mostly OK. Wouldn’t bother increasing the long run until you’re into the marathon block - better to introduce a sixth day of around 30-40 mins easy/recovery. Try to get up to at least 35 miles, preferably a little more.

You can run a decent half during the marathon training. 1:40 sounds a tad ambitious for a 4-hr marathoner however, although everyone is different.

Agreed. Anything 1:45ish would be bang on. By all means aim for better but don't be disappointed if it's a wee bit more.

ewc78

skyblue46 wrote: »

Agreed. Anything 1:45ish would be bang on. By all means aim for better but don't be disappointed if it's a wee bit more.

Are you saying someone who is going for a sub 4hr Marathon should be able run a 1:45 half?

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

Are you saying someone who is going for a sub 4hr Marathon should be able run a 1:45 half?

No not exactly. It's not a necessity by any means.

At the same time, to be able to face into the marathon with a fair degree of confidence, yes. I remember when I joined the novice thread last year I had a 1:48 half previously and the advice was that I should look to get it down a bit.
If I recall correctly a few of us who did DCM in 3:47 to 3:57 had half times between 1:40 and 1:47 in the race series half.
Of course people are different so I'm sure there are many who can go sub 4 off a slower half.

ewc78

I would have thought anyone that can do a 1:45 half would be aiming for better than a sub 4 Marathon. Remember sub 4 is 3:59.59 which is what I would be happy with!
Obviously to go even more under sub 4 would be great but me personally anything, even the bare minimum, under 4hrs is a success.
I was going to aim for around a 1:50 half and will be using that pace equivalent when I do half marathon pace runs in training. Now obviously depending on how training goes I may be in a position to change those paces for a faster one but that's what I'm starting out with.
Maybe I'm wrong on that and would be happy to be advised otherwise.

RayCun

These threads compare people's half marathon times and marathon times

ewc78

RayCun wrote: »

These threads compare people's half marathon times and marathon times

Starting to think sub 4 might be beyond me from reading those threads.

shotgunmcos

On the half marathon time milestones for a 4hr marathon.

I paced the Dublin Marathon twice for the 4hr group (3:59:50 and 3:59:30) and trained a large group of ladies for the second one. The question often popped up. In fairness context is everything.

If the sub 4 attempt is your first marathon or you have brought the goal down from slower pervious marathons, then training miles at your marathon pace in the latter half of your long run is the key thing. You are putting the miles in general in training and have the capacity to belt out a half marathon in 1:40-1:50. That's all good. The problem is it does not come close to where your glycogen depletion will be after 3 hours. If your body is hurting after 90 mins of the half you only have to "suffer" for another 10-15 minutes and mentally this is not much when you are training for a marathon. With the effort biting at 3 hours in a 4 hours marathon that last hour is a very long time!

That's why it is crucial to practice marathon paces miles after you have been on your feet for 2hrs+
Your long runs for a 4hr marathon likely take you up to 19-20 miles or circa 3hrs. Being able to run your marathon pace for the second half of a 3 hour long run and finish feeling good would be a better indicator than a 1:45 half marathon in my opinion.

So, while that half marathon is a good indicator that your training is going well and a benchmark that you are on track. It has little bearing on what your marathon result is likely to be.

AntrimGlens

RayCun wrote: »

These threads compare people's half marathon times and marathon times

Well that has properly put the frighteners on me, was hoping for sub 4 based on a 1.44 HM in April, think i'll stick to the 9 min mile pace rather than 8:45 and see what i have left with a few miles to go (if anything). Have now got PF also. :mad:

RayCun

as shotgun says, context is everything.

The classic mistake novice runners make is that they only have one pace - they don't do faster intervals, and they don't do slow miles. Every run is just "go out and run". They don't really adapt to long runs, they just survive them. That makes them reasonably fit for a half marathon, but not ready for a marathon.

If you train properly, know how to pace yourself, get the miles in, you don't have to be much slower in the marathon than the half.

ariana`

Some great posts here, lots of food for thought. Thanks for those who have already broken 4 hrs and far beyond it too and who are taking the time to post their experience and knowledge to guide us

I posted this link in the novice thread but posting it also here as it's a great marathon report and it touches on the subject of Half Marathon as an indicator of marathon time (or not!) also which is relevant here.

Hedgehoggy

Thanks for advice. This is interesting discussion and gives some food for thought. Am maybe being a little ambitious with half time - my 10k pb is 44.2x so was basing a time of 1.40 off the mcmillan calculator. Think I would need to do at specific/focused training for it to achieve this...

Just wondering about those 'progression long runs' (where you run at planned marathon pace for the last few mins - maybe they have a technical name?). Would you do this on every long run - for instance - I'm doing a 13 mile run this week - should I up the tempo for the last 4-5, and on every long run from here on in - or is it a strategy you use conservatively (e.g. every second or third run)?

seanin4711

like to be in control of my own destiny,but its a risk.

Pomplamousse

Just catching up on this thread and it's put the fear in me too. Haven't raced a HM in over a year so not sure what I'm capable of.
Just signed up for the DCM half after reading this:o

ewc78

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Just catching up on this thread and it's put the fear in me too. Haven't raced a HM in over a year so not sure what I'm capable of.
Just signed up for the DCM half after reading this:o

Lol. I also just signed up for the Dublin Half after reading the last few posts!!

skyblue46

Just one thing jumping out at me when I read a lot of these posts....train to your present fitness level. It's a mantra we have on the novices thread and it equally applies here. Train to your present capability not to some aspirational goal time. Use a recent race time to calculate training paces, train to this pace, race again, hopefully need a faster training pace.

The Black Oil

Feeling rather sorry for myself since this morning as my right shin is intermittently sore. I was going to run this evening, but decided not to. I hope this is not the start of feckin' splints.

shotgunmcos

pac_man wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's wise to run with someone that is doing the even splits on a course like the Dublin Marathon as the course is quite undulating. I like to dictate my own pace rather than on someone else watch and I like a bit of breathing space. I could only image you'd be nearly
tripping over people in the first half a 4 hour marathon pace group.

On the other hand, you might be one of these runners that thrives in running with a big group. There's a sense of camaraderie that you're running with like minded people with the same objective of wanting to run
a marathon in under 4 hours. You don't have to worry about splits or looking at the watch as the pacer is doing it. You'll also have pacers giving all the positive vibes which are helpful in the later stages of the marathon.

You'll get conflicting views on this but ultimately it's down to personal preference.

With my 4 hour pacer hat on you can have both. The 4hr pace group for DCM is huge. Its great fun but very busy and some did trip over. The balloons we had were huge and hard to miss. I don't understand the need to glue yourself to a pacer. Hanging back 50m may seem so far but its only 10secoinds away and you may have much more room. Just keep the pacer in sight. Much easier than running ahead and keep looking back to ensure you are not losing them. As the group thins out after 15miles you could reel in a few metres every mile, pass the pacers in the last mile leaving them behind knowing you've got it!

ariana`

seanin4711 wrote: »

like to be in control of my own destiny,but its a risk.

I guess it's personal but from my experience last year i think i'd start behind which ever pace group you're interested in and let them get away a bit in the early miles and then reel them in during the middle miles and ideally whizz by them in last few miles to finish ahead of them in a strong finish. Different pace group but this is how it worked out for me last year, although i can't claim that i planned it that way, but it worked well and it's an approach i'd take again.