ArmaniJeanss wrote: » Perhaps the No side realised that 4000 abortions a year at €300 was only just over 1 million euro, and wasn't worth drawing attention to. Even 10 times that figure would have been a fairly pathetic debating point - 'Vote No because it will cost the average tax payer THREE EURO a year' wasn't going to sway many undecideds.
Phoebas wrote: » I don't understand why some No voters are trying to disassociate themselves with the Iona institute (even to the extent of introducing KKK comparisons). Some of the Iona Institute representatives were the No campaign's most effective advocates.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » Well we'll agree to disagree but if you had read all the posts after Graces7 post you would see that others had the same thoughts like me. It disgusts me that children can be thrown in a sess pit and no-one is up in arms? What aren't IONA marching about those children? Answer me this please, why are the No side so worried about a possible baby in utero but I don't hear you all jumping up and down fighting for the babies in the Tuam septic tank? Or against all the paedophile priests and the attacks on children? Or the Magdeline Launderies and the forced adoptions? You care not a jot about a born child, just want to control a woman's reproductive organs. Now the rest of Ireland are supposed to have consideration and compassion for the people who voted No. Where was the compassion and consideration for the 9 women travelling to the UK every day.
Shurimgreat wrote: » Can anyone post links to articles or speeches pre the referendum where prominent leaders of the Yes campaign advocated free no fee abortions in Ireland for non hard cases? It would have been nice if they were more up front about it. I don't recall Simon Harris mentioning it in the debates or other yes debaters. Something they held back it seems.
end of the road wrote: » graces has posted a number of times on tuam and her posts disprove the claim that she isn't bothered about the babies. the megga-thread on it is pages back on the forum and she posted in it. are you and the others complaining about what all no voters don't do marching about the babies, about paedophile priests and attacks on children or the laundries and forced adoptions? or the 9 women who are going to the uk each day? or is it only the no side who should march about those issues? sadly, most people don't all have the time to be marching about things. we have work, lives and so on that don't leave us with much free time to march in relation to issues we care about, as much as we would like to be able to protest. you and a few others throughout this thread complain about how everyone who doesn't share your view on abortion doesn't care about this and that but in reality, you know nothing about what others do and don't care about. you don't have the monopoly on caring. you yourself also complain about your reproductive organs being controled, in my opinion it's just not true. or if it is, it was not at the hands of the 8th or government. i don't know about other no voters, but i am not looking for compassion. i voted the way i believe is right and i stand by it 100% . that's all that matters to me, if others have a problem with it it's on them, not me. i will never ever apologize for doing what i believe is right.
Shurimgreat wrote: » No side does not equal Iona Institute. Its the equivalent of saying white america equals KKK or something like that. Its really not that difficult.
iguana wrote: » The slogan of the Abortion Rights Campaign, is now and always has been, Free, Safe, Legal. It's printed on thousands of badges and many hundreds of t-shirts. It's their twitter handle. If that's your definition of holding something back then I'm curious as to what you think being forward is.:pac:
Shurimgreat wrote: » No sorry. Nice try. The No side were a wide array of groups and people that included people with religious affiliation and none as well as including trade unionists, doctors and lawyers. Iona were a small part which broadcasters chose for some debates. But others such as Toibin, Ganley, Lowe as well as doctors and lawyers played a part. To reduce the No side to being Iona in the main does not help your argument. Most people see through it right away. As end of the road rightly said, ordinary No voters had no input into who represented them.
ArmaniJeanss wrote: » Do you have any links to large groups of No Voters being disgruntled about who was being selected for the debates at the time? If there were ~5K of ye on a facebook group somewhere saying 'why are Mullen/Steyn/Sherlock being selected again when there's lots of able trade-unionists, doctors and lawyers who could debate instead?' then I'd have sympathy for your point. If not then it looks like post result bolloxology. From what I can see RTE/TV3 consistently picked your most dedicated committed and articulate people.
Shurimgreat wrote: » Not mentioned prominently in tv debates though which most people watched.
Shurimgreat wrote: » And the idea that abortions will decline when abortions become free whereas before they involved some costs is not credible.
iguana wrote: » That's because the referendum wasn't about the details of the costs of the future potential service introduced by the legislation. But you can hardly claim that the abortion rights campaigners made a secret of free abortions being part of their end goal when there were thousands and thousands of people walking around the country wearing a slogan calling for just that.:rolleyes: Do you really think that getting €300 together will put anyone off having abortion? Compared to the cost of having a child? Riiiiight. A free service won't create demand for abortion, what it will do is ensure earlier abortions. Which is surely better done at 5 weeks (3 weeks gestation) when the embryo is a sesame seed sized tadpole shaped being. Rather than at 12 weeks when it has all the little fingers and toes, and the pulse (not heartbeat) many on the no side are so emotional about?
Shurimgreat wrote: » IONA are a miniscule "institute" who are given disproportionate airtime. I think everyone on all sides can agree on that. You will have to ask RTE and TV3 why they are given that airtime as they call the shots. My guess is they make for a soft and easy target, pantomine villains if you will.
Shurimgreat wrote: » Fair enough if you think that way. The danger inevitably is abortion becomes cheap and easy and many will use it as a form of birth control. Get pregnant and then have an abortion. Already an abortion culture seems to be becoming the norm in Ireland. The cheering post referendum was truly sickening. People were celebrating as if abortion was the best thing ever to happen this country. And going on what some yes siders have posted on here I am beginning to believe that is the general attitude on the yes side. If anything demanded sensitivity this was it. But no it was treated as if Ireland won the soccer world cup.
dudara wrote: » The single one thing that annoyed me personally abut the anti-choice campaign was that it failed to acknowledge, in my view, that there was a living woman carrying a pregnancy that, for whatever resin, she did not want to continue. Not one No debater ever gave me a decent counter-argument to the statement “I’m pregnant, I don’t want to be pregnant”
spookwoman wrote: » Do you think this is acceptable instead? "In 2014 it was revealed in a report compiled by Michael Dwyer of Cork University’s School of History 2,051 children from state-run homes were used as medical guinea pigs for the pharma giant Burroughs Wellcome during the 1930s. " or this "Before Dwyer’s 2012 report, a damning report by the Irish government’s Health Service Executive (HSE) found that the Irish Catholic mother and child homes had an infant mortality rate of 68% in 1943. The report shows that, according to the Register of Deaths, Bessborough Mother and Baby home during certain months in the 1940s the death rate among children living in the home amounted to a child dying roughly every second day." or this "More than 80 of the 472 infant deaths have malnutrition listed as the cause of death."
Shurimgreat wrote: » The cheering post referendum was truly sickening. People were celebrating as if abortion was the best thing ever to happen this country. And going on what some yes siders have posted on here I am beginning to believe that is the general attitude on the yes side. If anything demanded sensitivity this was it. But no it was treated as if Ireland won the soccer world cup.
But no it was treated as if Ireland won the soccer world cup.
Sheep breeder wrote: » On this post my mother who is 82 years of age had an older sister raped at 15 and sent to a home in Tipperary to have her child who supposedly died and she herself died of broken heart and how the family found out the truth was by a cousin in Australia researching into it got clear facts compared to his brother in Ireland trying to get the facts and it was a cover up job in Ireland. My mother went to-visit her sisters grave in roscrea last year and was heart broken over the only memory she has of her sister is being taken away with her suit case and she could do nothing about it as a 12year old and was never told anything more about her sister and is marked on the family headstone that she is buried their and the fact is she is not. My mother voted yes as she stated for her grand daughters and her Great grand daughters could have their own say as to what happens to them, as she says freedom of choice not like her 14 year old sister who had no say and my mother is a devot Catholic to this day and not for a Bishop to come out and say she has to go to confession. The constant posters on the no side on here who do not agree with democrats of this country who have voted in numbers to vote repeal, I say please think of all the lives that has being ruined over the years and the sad souls who have had the rights taken away by church and the 8th and the no side who think abortion is going to wholesale with repeal please given women respect and compassion as no women enters into abortion lightly and have had to carry the guilt so hard in life, and one thing that has annoyed me so much is the talk about miscarriage by the no side and how they do not understand how it effects daily life so much and in our case 14 years later it is still so raw and never goes away. At this stage I would say to the couple of posters fighting for the no side on here please think of all the people on here who you are upsetting with your constant argument of how wrong the yes side is and think of moving on and Ireland has voted and anybody that didn’t vote that is also their right but Ireland voted yes and get over it.
end of the road wrote: » ....... are you and the others complaining about what all no voters don't do marching about the babies, about paedophile priests and attacks on children or the laundries and forced adoptions? or the 9 women who are going to the uk each day? or is it only the no side who should march about those issues? sadly, most people don't all have the time to be marching about things. we have work, lives and so on that don't leave us with much free time to march in relation to issues we care about, as much as we would like to be able to protest.But you aren't protesting though. Show me where IONA and the rest of that ilk are out complaining about paedophile priests, nuns and illegal adoptions, forced unpaid labour in Magdalene laundaries. Screaming "baby murderers" and spitting in the face of people handing out leaflets for the Yes side is about all you lot are able for. We are all busy, have busy lives, but show me where any No sider supported Amnesty Ireland in their fight for society freedoms which State/Religious collusion tries to inhibit. you and a few others throughout this thread complain about how everyone who doesn't share your view on abortion doesn't care about this and that but in reality, you know nothing about what others do and don't care about. you don't have the monopoly on caring.I never mentioned abortion in my post. I spoke about the No side choosing to hone in on the 8th and babies in vitro but not being so bothered about the other children the religious have abused and abandoned. But you clearly don't care because a compassionate caring person doesn't say "not in my back yard" - and lets vulnerable women travel to the UK for medical care that should have been available here. you yourself also complain about your reproductive organs being controled, in my opinion it's just not true. or if it is, it was not at the hands of the 8th or government.Thats a nonsense and there are plenty of better educated people than me to confirm that if you want to look - but you don't. Bury your head in the sand but the medical treatment for Savita and Miss P was totally compromised by the 8th - that's why Miss P's family had to go to the High Court so they could bury her. Where's the compassion for her or her family. i don't know about other no voters, but i am not looking for compassion. i voted the way i believe is right and i stand by it 100% . that's all that matters to me, if others have a problem with it it's on them, not me. i will never ever apologize for doing what i believe is right.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » But you aren't protesting though. Show me where IONA and the rest of that ilk are out complaining about paedophile priests, nuns and illegal adoptions, forced unpaid labour in Magdalene laundaries.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » Screaming "baby murderers" and spitting in the face of people handing out leaflets for the Yes side is about all you lot are able for.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » We are all busy, have busy lives, but show me where any No sider supported Amnesty Ireland in their fight for society freedoms which State/Religious collusion tries to inhibit.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » I never mentioned abortion in my post. I spoke about the No side choosing to hone in on the 8th and babies in vitro but not being so bothered about the other children the religious have abused and abandoned.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » But you clearly don't care because a compassionate caring person doesn't say "not in my back yard" - and lets vulnerable women travel to the UK for medical care that should have been available here.
It wasnt me123 wrote: » Voters weren't looking for compassion, we were showing it to others. I've never had to go to the UK for an abortion and hopefully none of my family will but I have compassion for the women that do and I care for their medical welfare. You have no empathy for the women that have to travel.
Shurimgreat wrote: » ! You can't trust politicians sadly.
Shurimgreat wrote: » It doesn't take an expert to know that infant mortality was high in Ireland at the time. Children died from many diseases such as TB that are now largely obsolete here.
end of the road wrote: » abortion on demand will not undo or right the wrongs caried out by the catholic church in ireland or anywhere, barbaric as all of what happened was. it's a separate issue anyway.
end of the road wrote: » i have never screamed baby murderer in someone's face and never would.
you don't know what i do and don't care about. and i have said a plenty that where abortion is needed for a genuine medical reason it should be provided.
i actually do have empathy for them. i simply believe in many cases they are wrong to have an abortion and that they shouldn't be facilitated in doing so. they would never be treated as a lesser person by me even though i strongly disagree with what they did.
one world order wrote: » Abortion is killing a baby, no need to be embarrassed, it was voted for, now own it.
Doctor Jimbob wrote: » People aren't saying abortion will undo the wrongs committed by the church. They're simply pointing out the hypocrisy of an organisation claiming to be against it because they care so much about children, while simultaneously doing their utmost to sweep their own disgusting treatment of actual living children under the rug.
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