Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if your partner was pregnant would you trust the irish health service to deliver that baby?

Of course. Because the Irish health service has vast experience in delivering babies.

We have next to no experience of providing abortions. We don't have the infrastructure around oversight for starters.

We would be starting from scratch. It would be trial and error.

If nothing else I am looking forward to seeing how this "experiment" goes.

Some more points from the Marie Stopes report.

What the inspectors found
Some 373 failed abortions at clinics over two months.
Eleven patients taken as an emergency to hospital between October and December 2016.
A nurse at a Manchester clinic had no registration.
Consent for an abortion was obtained from a patient only after her pregnancy had been terminated.
No system for checking nurses’ performance.
Staff in Essex ignored advice from inspectors to be trained about female genital mutilation, child sexual exploitation, and anti-radicalisation schemes.
A new managing director left just two months after starting in January.
Key jobs in infection control, safety and medical director left unfilled.
No improved checks to combat risk of infection.
Delays of up to a month in providing abortions.
Staff not trained to identify complications in scans

The last two are keys ones for me.

If these issues happened in the UK which has decades of experience on abortions, its going to happen here too.

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Of course. Because the Irish health service has vast experience in delivering babies.

We have next to no experience of providing abortions. We don't have the infrastructure around oversight for starters.

We would be starting from scratch. It would be trial and error.

If nothing else I am looking forward to seeing how this "experiment" goes.

Some more points from the Marie Stopes report.

The last two are keys ones for me.

If these issues happened in the UK which has decades of experience on abortions, its going to happen here too.

No trial and error required. You think that OBGYNs are not trained to perform them? That they are a difficult procedure? The procedure is already performed here. This is just more pointless scaremongering.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Of course. Because the Irish health service has vast experience in delivering babies.

Nah, I met be wrong. We never have newly qualified consultants or midwives in Ireland.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Delays of up to a month in providing abortions.
Staff not trained to identify complications in scans
The last two are keys ones for me.

If these issues happened in the UK which has decades of experience on abortions, its going to happen here too.

Training is a minor issue. Ireland adheres to industry standards for medical training.

Delays...simple to handle. Train more staff.

It's beyond the stage of ridiculous now. I'm not going to trust dentists because there may be a queue....I'll go to the UK instead.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The UK has 50 years experience in providing abortion services.
They perform close to 190,000 a year.
Many are performed at clinics such as Marie Stopes.
These are run by professionals in the field with decades and decades of experience.
More importantly the abortion services industry is highly regulated with significant oversight.

And yet despite all this, there are many problems with the industry in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783694/Nearly-400-botched-abortions-two-months-Marie-Stopes.html

So you think we are going to hit the ground running over here, what with our record of abysmal healthcare and laughable oversight. You only have to look at the recent cervical check scandal to see how transparency and oversight is handled.

So by all means run with abortion here.

If my partner ever required an abortion in extreme circumstances such as FFA I would still be heading to the UK to get it carried out. I wouldn't trust the Irish healthcare system or grossly incompetent politicians like Harris and Varadkar who are still ducking and diving when it comes to dealing with the women of the cervical checking scandal.

So you would go to a country where you say in your opinion the laws regarding access to abortion services are routinely broken because you don't trust the Irish health service, while ignoring the fact that prescribing pills or carrying out a surgical procedure is vastly different from analysing cell samples in a lab and ****ing up on the reports.

Strange how Vicky Phelan called for a yes vote, and can't see a comparison that matches your view.

http://www.thejournal.ie/vicky-phelan-eighth-amendment-4019680-May2018/

I suppose your view gives a different slant to what Freshpopcorn correctly said he hope wouldn't see happen earlier in the thread

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Another thing I hope is that we don't see articles popping up when abortion is available in Ireland saying that I had to travel because the stigma still exists here.
The country voted in favor of it by a large majority and some still against it but this is the same in every country!

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No trial and error required. You think that OBGYNs are not trained to perform them? That they are a difficult procedure? The procedure is already performed here. This is just more pointless scaremongering.

Ah the scaremongering card. You just stick your fingers in your ears and shout loudly and hope nothing gets through.

Let others worry about the enormous difficulties in creating an entire abortion services infrastructure from scratch. There is a lot more to abortion services than just two pills.

Significant medical care is required around it, particularly those who require surgery. Clearly as a country we haven't a clue what is involved. Few are trained in it. Even in the UK they appear to be having difficulties recruiting trained staff and staff who can read and interpret scans properly.

This is not to mention the infrastructure around inspections, oversight and accountability, insurance for medical negligence and so on.

pitifulgod

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Ah the scaremongering card. You just stick your fingers in your ears and shout loudly and hope nothing gets through.

Let others worry about the enormous difficulties in creating an entire abortion services infrastructure from scratch. There is a lot more to abortion services than just two pills.

Significant medical care is required around it, particularly those who require surgery. Clearly as a country we haven't a clue what is involved. Few are trained in it. Even in the UK they appear to be having difficulties recruiting trained staff and staff who can read and interpret scans properly.

This is not to mention the infrastructure around inspections, oversight and accountability, insurance for medical negligence and so on.

The medical community such as the Masters of Rotunda, Peter Boylan, gynaecologists and obstetricians etc are pretty confident confident that they can put together such a framework. Eg guidelines exist globally so plenty of implementations that it can be based around in terms of regulation. I'm more confident in medical experts than those who are trying to find any reason to prevent Ireland from handling its own medical care.

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Ah the scaremongering card. You just stick your fingers in your ears and shout loudly and hope nothing gets through.

Let others worry about the enormous difficulties in creating an entire abortion services infrastructure from scratch. There is a lot more to abortion services than just two pills.

Significant medical care is required around it, particularly those who require surgery. Clearly as a country we haven't a clue what is involved. Few are trained in it. Even in the UK they appear to be having difficulties recruiting trained staff and staff who can read and interpret scans properly.

This is not to mention the infrastructure around inspections, oversight and accountability, insurance for medical negligence and so on.

and yet the college of obgyns voted overwhelmingly for Yes. They dont seem to have raised this objection. Now,nobody is saying that there is work to be done. But to imply that the irish health service lacks the competence to do so is nonsense.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Nah, I met be wrong. We never have newly qualified consultants or midwives in Ireland.

Training is a minor issue. Ireland adheres to industry standards for medical training.

Delays...simple to handle. Train more staff.

You really are beyond the stage of ridiculous now. I'm not going to trust dentists because there may be a queue....

The only one being ridiculous is yourself.

You think we can catch up with the experience and infrastructure of the UK, overnight?

You are deluded in the extreme if you believe that.

But that's the problem with people like you. You haven't thought the whole thing through. Reminds me of Brexit in a way. People voting with emotion and feeling. Didn't bother to think of what follows afterwards.

My fear is Irish women will be effectively guinea pigs for the first few years as we struggle to build the infrastructure.

Whether you are for or against abortion is irrelevant.

What is badly missing from this whole debate is objectivity and a cool headed analysis of what is involved in providing abortion services in Ireland. We have no experience in directly providing the service on a mass scale.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Ah the scaremongering card. You just stick your fingers in your ears and shout loudly and hope nothing gets through.

Let others worry about the enormous difficulties in creating an entire abortion services infrastructure from scratch. There is a lot more to abortion services than just two pills.

Significant medical care is required around it, particularly those who require surgery. Clearly as a country we haven't a clue what is involved. Few are trained in it. Even in the UK they appear to be having difficulties recruiting trained staff and staff who can read and interpret scans properly.

This is not to mention the infrastructure around inspections, oversight and accountability, insurance for medical negligence and so on.

As someone who spent ten years in the medical software and devices field from pharmacy right up to chemotherapy treatment, you'd be surprised how fast people can be up skilled from the knowledge they already have from college and additional continuous training and research. Insurance for medical negligence etc is already in place for surgical procedures in hospitals, and for general practice in relation to prescribing.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Let others worry about the enormous difficulties in creating an entire abortion services infrastructure from scratch. There is a lot more to abortion services than just two pills.

So is the effort setting up a system a reason for not doing it now? Changed your tune yet again! Nothing is being set up from scratch.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Significant medical care is required around it, particularly those who require surgery. Clearly as a country we haven't a clue what is involved. Few are trained in it. Even in the UK they appear to be having difficulties recruiting trained staff and staff who can read and interpret scans properly.

Every woman in Ireland who is pregnant gets scans. We already have the people trained to read the scans and interpret them properly.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

This is not to mention the infrastructure around inspections, oversight and accountability, insurance for medical negligence and so on.

That is all in place already. You are just making things up!

Cupcake_Crisis

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Ah the scaremongering card. You just stick your fingers in your ears and shout loudly and hope nothing gets through.

Let others worry about the enormous difficulties in creating an entire abortion services infrastructure from scratch. There is a lot more to abortion services than just two pills.

Significant medical care is required around it, particularly those who require surgery. Clearly as a country we haven't a clue what is involved. Few are trained in it. Even in the UK they appear to be having difficulties recruiting trained staff and staff who can read and interpret scans properly.

This is not to mention the infrastructure around inspections, oversight and accountability, insurance for medical negligence and so on.

You are aware that medical staff already train in abortion services right? They just go abroad to do it? Not to mention the vast amount of foreign doctors working in our hospitals who come from countries where they would have routinely performed abortions?

Don’t mind that though. It’s better to scaremonger.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The only one being ridiculous is yourself.

You think we can catch up with the experience and infrastructure of the UK, overnight?

You are deluded in the extreme if you believe that.

But that's the problem with people like you. You haven't thought the whole thing through. Reminds me of Brexit in a way. People voting with emotion and feeling. Didn't bother to think of what follows afterwards.

My fear is Irish women will be effectively guinea pigs for the first few years as we struggle to build the infrastructure.

Whether you are for or against abortion is irrelevant.

What is badly missing from this whole debate is objectivity and a cool headed analysis of what is involved in providing abortion services in Ireland. We have no experience in directly providing the service on a mass scale.

Attack the post and not the poster!

The read my post prior to this one. The ball is already in play. Women already get the scans etc. Women already get abortions. Nothing is new except maybe aGP led service.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So is the effort setting up a system a reason for not doing it now? Changed your tune yet again! Nothing is being set up from scratch.

Every woman in Ireland who is pregnant gets scans. We already have the people trained to read the scans and interpret them properly.

That is all in place already. You are just making things up!

Fine. Point me to the specific body who oversees the direct provision of abortion services in Ireland on a MASS scale.

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The only one being ridiculous is yourself.

You think we can catch up with the experience and infrastructure of the UK, overnight?

You are deluded in the extreme if you believe that.

But that's the problem with people like you. You haven't thought the whole thing through. Reminds me of Brexit in a way. People voting with emotion and feeling. Didn't bother to think of what follows afterwards.

My fear is women will be effectively guinea pigs for the first few years as we struggle to build the infrastructure.

Whether you are for or against abortion is irrelevant.

What is badly missing from this whole debate is objectivity and a cool headed analysis of what is involved in providing abortion services in . We have no experience in directly providing the service on a mass scale.

we already have the infrastructure. surgical abortions will be part of the existing maternity service. And they will represent the minority of abortions.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Attack the post and not the poster!

The read my post prior to this one. The ball is already in play. Women already get the scans etc. Women already get abortions. Nothing is new except maybe aGP led service.

UK has 50 years experience.
Marie Stopes and similar clinics do most of the work.
GP led service is largely meaningless. When complications occur, its to the local hospital and A&E wards women will be sent. To lie on a stretcher like everyone else.
Our GPs have little or no experience of providing abortion services because it has been illegal up to now. They also will be starting from scratch.
Probably the best solution is to invite in the likes of Marie Stopes who have the experience.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Fine. Point me to the specific body who oversees the direct provision of abortion services in Ireland on a MASS scale.

HIQA are responsible for inspections of medical facilities. There are groups such as INAB and JCI. These check that all procedures, practices, etc. are up to international standard and accredited.

eviltwin

Abortion pills are already prescribed in Ireland albeit for different reasons but our doctors and nursing staff are well able to manage the needs of women using abortion services.

Cupcake_Crisis

Shurimgreat wrote: »

UK has 50 years experience.
Marie Stopes and similar clinics do most of the work.
GP led service is largely meaningless. When complications occur, its to the local hospital and A&E wards women will be sent. To lie on a stretcher like everyone else.
Our GPs have little or no experience of providing abortion services because it has been illegal up to now. They also will be starting from scratch.
Probably the best solution is to invite in the likes of Marie Stopes who have the experience.

Except they’ll be sent to maternity hospitals, not A&E, where they’ll be well equipped to deal with the complications

Shurimgreat wrote: »

UK has 50 years experience.
Marie Stopes and similar clinics do most of the work.
GP led service is largely meaningless. When complications occur, its to the local hospital and A&E wards women will be sent. To lie on a stretcher like everyone else.
Our GPs have little or no experience of providing abortion services because it has been illegal up to now. They also will be starting from scratch.
Probably the best solution is to invite in the likes of Marie Stopes who have the experience.

Our GPs are fast learners. They learned about the Zika virus double quick.

Holles Street has an A&E. Surely that's where pregnant women in the area with complications already go. Pregnant women on the Northside of Dublin normally go to the Rotunda. Louth go to maternity services in Drogheda, etc.

I don't see where you are going with this. The services are already in place to support whatever framework is specified.

pitifulgod wrote: »

The medical community such as the Masters of Rotunda, Peter Boylan, gynaecologists and obstetricians etc are pretty confident confident that they can put together such a framework. Eg guidelines exist globally so plenty of implementations that it can be based around in terms of regulation. I'm more confident in medical experts than those who are trying to find any reason to prevent Ireland from handling its own medical care.

Marie Stopes, 40 years experience in providing abortions and among the world leading experts, have 400 botched abortions in 2 months in their clinics as well as countless other issues and shortcomings.

But Irish doctors with virtually zero experience in providing abortions are confident they can do the job. Pull the other one.

If the Yes side are going to support abortions in Ireland, they need to get it right.

As I said I wouldn't touch Irish abortion services with a barge pole for at least a decade. But if anyone else wants to be a guinea pig go ahead.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Marie Stopes, 40 years experience in providing abortions, have 400 botched abortions in 2 months in the clinics as well as countless other issues and shortcomings.

But Irish doctors with virtually zero experience in providing abortions are confident they can do the job. Pull the other one.

If the Yes side are going to support abortions in Ireland, they need to get it right.

As I said I wouldn't touch Irish abortion services with a barge pole for at least a decade. But if anyone else wants to be a guinea pig go ahead.

So because of an issue in the UK we should never contemplate offering a particular service in Ireland? We would have no doctors or hospitals if that was the case!

Major issue with Harold Shipman as he murdered 15 patients....so lets not provide GP services in Ireland. There is no logic to that.

eviltwin

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Marie Stopes, 40 years experience in providing abortions and among the world leading experts, have 400 botched abortions in 2 months in their clinics as well as countless other issues and shortcomings.

But Irish doctors with virtually zero experience in providing abortions are confident they can do the job. Pull the other one.

If the Yes side are going to support abortions in Ireland, they need to get it right.

As I said I wouldn't touch Irish abortion services with a barge pole for at least a decade. But if anyone else wants to be a guinea pig go ahead.

But Irish women are already dependent on these clinics in the UK. Or they do the abortion at home with no medical supervision.

Shadowstrife

I want to ask if anyone has heard anti-Donegal sentiment, sniggering,snobbery or cheap jokes since the result. Please elaborate, thanks!

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I want to ask if anyone has heard anti-Donegal sentiment, sniggering,snobbery or cheap jokes since the result. Please elaborate, thanks!

They may be off the holiday destination list for some.

mcmoustache

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

You say out in force, I say an accurate representation of the electorate.

Quiet you! You're interfering with the victim narrative that they're trying to push.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Marie Stopes, 40 years experience in providing abortions and among the world leading experts, have 400 botched abortions in 2 months in their clinics as well as countless other issues and shortcomings.

But Irish doctors with virtually zero experience in providing abortions are confident they can do the job. Pull the other one.

If the Yes side are going to support abortions in Ireland, they need to get it right.

As I said I wouldn't touch Irish abortion services with a barge pole for at least a decade. But if anyone else wants to be a guinea pig go ahead.

Still waiting on you to provide links to the scientific data, to back up your opinion that the laws regarding access to abortion are routinely broken.

Nettle Soup

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I want to ask if anyone has heard anti-Donegal sentiment, sniggering,snobbery or cheap jokes since the result. Please elaborate, thanks!

Aragh we knew for years that Donegal people were a few sandwiches short of a picnic. They are like a bag of cats up there.
They took the phrase "Ulster says No" completely arseways. Let them off.

eviltwin wrote: »

But Irish women are already dependent on these clinics in the UK. Or they do the abortion at home with no medical supervision.

Evil, what I am saying is the UK services while not perfect are among the best in the world. Even still they have flaws. But they have the experience. Experience is critical in medicine, we all know that from recent scandals. Oversight is also critical.

Hope and optimism is not enough. You need very well trained medical professionals. GPs are great but again for exceptional and complicated procedures around abortion, you need trained experts, not only obgyns, but nurses and the like. People's lives will be at risk.

These are valid concerns which I think most people would agree on apart from the "Happy Clappy, isn't it great we are getting abortion?" brigade.

If you are going to have abortion here at least attempt to do it right, otherwise we will be looking at the next big scandal, with Harris and Varakar stonewalling and saying "nothing to do with us".

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I want to ask if anyone has heard anti-Donegal sentiment, sniggering,snobbery or cheap jokes since the result. Please elaborate, thanks!

I haven't heard any.

From knowing a few guys from there in the past, they are well capable of making and taking a joke in good taste, or sometimes a little lower, but none that I seen in this thread regarding Donegal, but I will stand corrected if wrong.