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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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beauf

The Irish rule refers to "mechanically propelled vehicle" so its not exclusive to bicycles.

Johnboy1951

I am not sure if the following is the current situation.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;

Sub-section (2)

(2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

It seems that any 'vehicle' with any 'engine' to mechanically move it, falls under the description.

In a quick search I did not find a definition of "vehicle".
It must be somewhere, and I just did not find it immediately.

phester28

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am not sure if the following is the current situation.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html

Sub-section (2)

It seems that any 'vehicle' with any 'engine' to mechanically move it, falls under the description.

In a quick search I did not find a definition of "vehicle".
It must be somewhere, and I just did not find it immediately.

You are correct that is the current definition. It has been determined /fleshed out that mechanically propelled is powered solely by the engine hence how we have the Epowered /assisted peddle cycles. People have been testing the legislation definition with relation to needing to push the "vehicle" initially to mean that it is not solely mechanically propelled.

That said I am not aware of any case that has been prosecuted under this heading for e scooters / ebikes etc. There have been confiscations but there is no detail as to what happened after.

Johnboy1951

phester28 wrote: »

You are correct that is the current definition. It has been determined /fleshed out that mechanically propelled is powered solely by the engine hence how we have the Epowered /assisted peddle cycles. People have been testing the legislation definition with relation to needing to push the "vehicle" initially to mean that it is not solely mechanically propelled.

That said I am not aware of any case that has been prosecuted under this heading for e scooters / ebikes etc. There have been confiscations but there is no detail as to what happened after.

Are you referring to case law here?
Because the definition most definitely does not specify 'solely' as you know.

Any ideas about a definition of "vehicle" in Irish law?

beauf

I like way we're ignoring all the issues of doing 45mph (72.42 kph) on a scooter.

phester28

We are not ignoring it and its a skate board not a scooter. Having looked up his board it is capable of doing 22mph. according to booster website buy.boostedboards.com. You can also see it in the screen shot during his video

I think he was referring to what what the higher executive office in the motor tax office said to him as he also mentioned this during his conversation but crossed from KPH into MPH.

RE: Johhnyboy1951, having looked back over where I saw this. it merely is part of the Garda faq relating to MPV and not case law.

beauf

Chinese whispers by someone in the pub would be more reliable that this ....

Next thing someone will want to push start a Tesla....its ok because I pushed it...

phester28

HI Beauf, Unless you have something constructive to add then you short reply's are not bringing anything constructive to the conversation. His story might have some holes but he has at least sighted his sources and put the emails on the video. You can verify the email addresses if you so wish.

His story gels with several conversations that I have had with Guards and several previous conversations on this topic over the last few years on this topic. I am not claiming to be an expert in law but you seem to be adamant to be antagonistic

Johnboy1951

phester28 wrote: »

We are not ignoring it and its a skate board not a scooter. Having looked up his board it is capable of doing 22mph. according to booster website buy.boostedboards.com. You can also see it in the screen shot during his video

I think he was referring to what what the higher executive office in the motor tax office said to him as he also mentioned this during his conversation but crossed from KPH into MPH.

RE: Johhnyboy1951, having looked back over where I saw this. it merely is part of the Garda faq relating to MPV and not case law.

It is all rather strange.

... and confusing ...

It would be nice if we could have a link to any relevant legislation other than what has been posted.

I had been under the impression that 'cycles with tiny engines' did not fall under 'mechanically propelled vehicle' ...... but that definition I quoted earlier would seem to say otherwise.
(cycles with tiny engines .... remember those bicycles which had a 'bolt-on' to assist the user, particularly on climbs?)

beauf

You're looking for a loophole that doesn't exist.

Johnboy1951

beauf wrote: »

You're looking for a loophole that doesn't exist.

It would be ever so useful if you addressed your reply to the poster, or quoted the post, you are responding to with your rather cryptic posts.

beauf

The legislation is crystal clear.

goz83

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I hope you find a solution that suits your needs.

Cheers jb.

The seats in my cars are set up fine and are comfortable. The issue is the length of time sitting.....regardless of what I am sitting on/in. I can stand for much longer than I can sit. Even lying down for more than a couple of hours creates a problem...so every morning is a bit of a struggle to get up. As I progress throughout the day, I get more flexible and have less pain....but driving for long periods still kills me.

I wonder what the story is with personal mobility scooters. They are definitely in the MPV category, but now way would anyone challenge someone using one on the public roadway. You don't need tax/insurance for them either.

Johnboy1951

goz83 wrote: »

Cheers jb.

The seats in my cars are set up fine and are comfortable. The issue is the length of time sitting.....regardless of what I am sitting on/in. I can stand for much longer than I can sit. Even lying down for more than a couple of hours creates a problem...so every morning is a bit of a struggle to get up. As I progress throughout the day, I get more flexible and have less pain....but driving for long periods still kills me.

So you would have a preference for standing?

I wonder what the story is with personal mobility scooters. They are definitely in the MPV category, but now way would anyone challenge someone using one on the public roadway. You don't need tax/insurance for them either.

You mean something like this?

They are usually heavy and awkward and slow and not very comfortable except in shopping malls.
Well that is my personal opinion of those I have seen.

You would probably have some difficulty getting one in and out of a saloon ...... a station wagon would probably be ok.
I do not believe they are (generally) suitable for the road with other traffic.

First thing to decide is if you would prefer to stand or sit ..... then search on that basis.

beauf

Mobility scooters are classed as Special Purpose Vehicles you can read up on them on the RSA.ie site. I can't get the link to work. They are treated as pedestrians. Some mention of 8mph.

zilog_jones

Yes, there is special classification for them with many exemptions from normal passenger vehicle stuff, falling under the (no longer very PC) term "invalid carriage" in legislation.

goz83

I decided to order myself one. I looked deeper into them and for the most part, they are considered illegal in most territories. However, the authorities largely ignore them, using common sense unless the rider is acting the maggot. I'll see how I get on. Maybe it will work out...maybe it won't. Could end up being a bit of fun scooting in the local park.

beauf

I think if you are discrete (go slow) and stay away from pedestrians and dismount as appropriate. You'd be unlucky to have a problem.

But I've seen a few act the moron on them, same with electric bikes. Slalom through busy street with no care about others well being.

Same with cars and bicycles too though.

[Deleted User]

It's as simple as this, in Ireland, if the bike has throttle it's illegal if it does not then it is not illegal.

You can ride a s-pedelec 45 Km/h perfectly legal in Ireland and it's still classed as a bicycle.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a
public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is
obliged to wear a crash helmet.

[Deleted User]

LOL funny, I just came across another article. Read here http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

As usual no one know what's going on. I've yet to see actual legislation written down on this matter , is the minister speculating Irish law ?

It seems the bureaucrats in the E.U don't understand basic physics or mechanics and still refuse to increase the power limits, they fail to see that higher power does not mean more speed = more danger, they're simply idiots. Speed and acceleration can be limited and full power applied only when claiming hills where max power is required.

250 watts wouldn't pull you out of bed which is why some ebike manufacturers ( Bosch to name 1 )hide it by limiting acceleration and top speed and use pedelec system via human cadence V speed to determine motor output.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

...ou can ride a s-pedelec 45 Km/h perfectly legal in Ireland and it's still classed as a bicycle....

You can ride at at 45 as long as the assistance cut off at 25.

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

[Deleted User]

Yeah that's a joke, so in other words , idiot politicians tell us we can pedal at 45 with no motor but limit power to 250 watts and 25 km/h, you couldn't make this sh1t up if you tried.

The danger here is not power but speed and acceleration, both can be limited.

goz83

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah that's a joke, so in other words , idiot politicians tell us we can pedal at 45 with no motor but limit power to 250 watts and 25 km/h, you couldn't make this sh1t up if you tried.

The danger here is not power but speed and acceleration, both can be limited.

It's mad alright. I think loads of people would use these things for personal transport which could only be a good thing for congestion in the cities.

All going well, I should have mine end of next week.

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah that's a joke, so in other words , idiot politicians tell us we can pedal at 45 with no motor but limit power to 250 watts and 25 km/h, you couldn't make this sh1t up if you tried.

The danger here is not power but speed and acceleration, both can be limited.

I think the point is people are naturally limited on a bicycle. Especially those less physically fit won't get to dangerous speeds.

liamog

I saw a guy in Dun Laoghaire with an e-bike that had a small number plate, he must have managed to get it taxed and insured.

cros13

In netherlands, germany, switzerland and austria they have licensing for "speed pedelecs" over the power and speed limits.
Nominal annual registration fee (€5 to 50), small license plate for your bike and some areas require a cheap (€25) 3rd party insurance or proof of haftpflichtversicherung (personal liability insurance).

C01M_k-VIAAHqf-.jpg:large

goz83

cros13 wrote: »

In netherlands, germany, switzerland and austria they have licensing for "speed pedelecs" over the power and speed limits.
Nominal annual registration fee (€5 to 50), small license plate for your bike and some areas require a cheap (€25) 3rd party insurance or proof of haftpflichtversicherung (personal liability insurance).

Imagine trying to get our bunch of idiots to do similar. IMO, anyone on a bike or scooter or board (electric or not) using the road should have to pay a small fee per year if over 16. If using an electric version, the fee should be higher, but no more than €100. Could be an insurance fund.

ted1

goz83 wrote: »

cros13 wrote: »

In netherlands, germany, switzerland and austria they have licensing for "speed pedelecs" over the power and speed limits.
Nominal annual registration fee (€5 to 50), small license plate for your bike and some areas require a cheap (€25) 3rd party insurance or proof of haftpflichtversicherung (personal liability insurance).

Imagine trying to get our bunch of idiots to do similar. IMO, anyone on a bike or scooter or board (electric or not) using the road should have to pay a small fee per year if over 16. If using an electric version, the fee should be higher, but no more than €100. Could be an insurance fund.

Anybody who cycles in a club has Insurance as do any members of cycle Ireland.

goz83

ted1 wrote: »

Anybody who cycles in a club has Insurance as do any members of cycle Ireland.

They are used on the road, so insurance should be compulsory.

I didn't even know cycling insurance was available in Ireland.

ted1

goz83 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Anybody who cycles in a club has Insurance as do any members of cycle Ireland.

They are used on the road, so insurance should be compulsory.

I didn't even know cycling insurance was available in Ireland.

Why should it be compulsory?

It’s compulsory for Motor vehicles because the nature of the accidents means that the claims are beyond the financial means of the party who caused them.

Bikes are about 7-20Kg and carry little momentum, the accidents that they are involved in have some financial loss which generally isn’t beyond the Means if the person involved.

I believe that your desire to have them, have compulsory insurance is more out if begrudgary than solid reasons

Here’s the link :
http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/insurance