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Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Ozymandius2011

This is for people who have already voted in the referendum. How did you vote? I voted yes.

Mod: This thread is little more than a survey about how you voted. Please don't the ins and outs of abortion.

Mod: This is not a reiteration of the previous 8th threads. If you were threadbanned from those, you are not threadbanned here.

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spookwoman

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There was certainly an emphasis on not intervening when there was a heartbeat detected but that was when the consultant was unaware of the sepsis diagnosis. When that diagnosis was made and the results relayed to her, a termination was ordered. Indeed, many other consultants have said that while the 8th impacted on their judgement (it was designed to after all) they felt it never hindered them and they were always able to terminate pregnancies if they felt they needed to. Many that were due to severe sepsis in fact.

Saying that the 8th caused Savita's death is overlooking just how poorly she was treated and how inept her care was:

When was she told she was going to have an inevitable and pending miscarriage?
Sunday the 21st.

When did her membranes brake?
Monday 22 just after midnight.

When did she Miscarry?
Wednesday 24 evening she finally miscarried.

Why did she get sepsis?
Because she was having a miscarriage and her cervix was open for 2 friggin' days!

Why did they not give her a termination when they knew she was having an inevitable and pending miscarriage?
Because of a heart beat and the 8th equal life to mother and foetus.

You don't need to be a doctor to know prevention is better than cure and you don't leave something in that is going to be a serious cause of infection.

I keep saying this but you wont listen

JP Liz V1

PressRun wrote: »

Interesting to see the breakdown of how people voted and why, and also interestong to see that many people had made up their minds on this issue a long time ago. Makes it seem strange now that Leo Varadkar and Simon Harris are front and centre of a lot of the media coverage on this. They dragged their heels on this referendum for quite a long time, particularly Varadkar. Harris also courted pro-life groups when trying to get elected. I know people change, especially when they are in full possession of the facts, but I find it bizarre that two men who for a long time didn't even want this referendum to happen are now being patted on the back for it. Surely more credit should be given to the people on the ground.

I think Simon Harris thinks he won the yes vote single handed

gctest50

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There was certainly an emphasis on not intervening when there was a heartbeat detected but that was when the consultant was unaware of the sepsis diagnosis. When that diagnosis was made and the results relayed to her, a termination was ordered. Indeed, many other consultants have said that while the 8th impacted on their judgement (it was designed to after all) they felt it never hindered them and they were always able to terminate pregnancies if they felt they needed to. Many that were due to severe sepsis in fact.

Saying that the 8th caused Savita's death is overlooking just how poorly she was treated and how inept her care was:

At what time / date did she request a termination ?

.

[Deleted User]

nullzero wrote: »

Don't go waving your facts around here as if logic somehow permeates the thick gooey membrane of group think that surrounds this echo chamber. I've found that when you really stick it to them they move onto another topic and ignore you...

I don't remember you posting any facts during your 34 posts on here, most were just short posts designed to try and piss people off in my opinion. Your last few before today were around the fact that apparently your wife didn't inform herself of the issue and preferred to watch reality tv rather than the debates on the subject and then voted yes because it was the popular stance.

I can double check all your posts to the thread but if you want to actually highlight the ones where you provided facts, then please do.

Sheep breeder

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There was certainly an emphasis on not intervening when there was a heartbeat detected but that was when the consultant was unaware of the sepsis diagnosis. When that diagnosis was made and the results relayed to her, a termination was ordered. Indeed, many other consultants have said that while the 8th impacted on their judgement (it was designed to after all) they felt it never hindered them and they were always able to terminate pregnancies if they felt they needed to. Many that were due to severe sepsis in fact.

Saying that the 8th caused Savita's death is overlooking just how poorly she was treated and how inept her care was:

Please let this poor woman rest in peace and her family have the compassion that they deserve and stop using this to justify the no vote, the vote has taken place in a democratic way and all the people have had their say as they are in titled to have and let’s move forward with the best possible law to protect women. In my view abortion will not become widespread due to women being so educated today and in control of their life. My 13 daughter had her own opinions on the referendum and which I discussed and listened to and totally understand and respect and this is the key respect women to make their choice.

[Deleted User]

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The way the Icbr went about their campaigning pre referendum day turning up outside maternity hospitals done the no side a disservice & didn,t win over many people to their side of the argument.

While I support people,s right to peaceful protest & campaign etc, I really hoped they would of learned from the high per % in the yes side how counter productive their past actions were & go about any future campaigning in a different way.

Yep the no campaign was a little bit toxic enough without them, and they just brought it down another level with some posters on here saying sure their just telling the truth.

Extremists don't care about public opinion as they see it their doing the right thing and everyone is wrong, same with any other form of extremists.

Look at westboro, if we were to believe them God hates the whole world except for them.

nozzferrahhtoo

I wonder if some people also just get addicted to the buzz or exhilaration or whatever it is they get by causing the deepest level of upset and offence and aggression they can in the most amount of people. The adrenaline rush of conflict when people rush over to scream abuse and hostility at them for their base and fetid and contrived little actions.

And like any drug they have to escalate the dosage to get the same high. Just like westboro going to picket funerals being about as low as you can get......... some people showing pictures of a dead fetus where pregnant women already stressed about their pregnancy.......... or mourning women who have miscarried or had a still birth...... will see them........ is just these people looking for their next high that they get when the public rush over to scream angrily in their faces.

I fear for what their next move will be when they start getting accustomed to this dosage and they need to escalate again. What have the westboro people done since targeting mourners at funerals?

[Deleted User]

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Please let this poor woman rest in peace and her family have the compassion that they deserve and stop using this to justify the no vote, the vote has taken place in a democratic way and all the people have had their say as they are in titled to have and let’s move forward with the best possible law to protect women. In my view abortion will not become widespread due to women being so educated today and in control of their life. My 13 daughter had her own opinions on the referendum and which I discussed and listened to and totally understand and respect and this is the key respect women to make their choice.

Not going to happen unfortunately at least not for some time. Her death was a catalyst for actually getting the referendum which they fought against happening in the first place and since they have lost the refurendum, their bitterness just won't let them let it go by clinging to one report that doesn't mention the 8th while ignoring the independent review of her case shows quite clearly that it did.

[Deleted User]

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I wonder if some people also just get addicted to the buzz or exhilaration or whatever it is they get by causing the deepest level of upset and offence and aggression they can in the most amount of people. The adrenaline rush of conflict when people rush over to scream abuse and hostility at them for their base and fetid and contrived little actions.

And like any drug they have to escalate the dosage to get the same high. Just like westboro going to picket funerals being about as low as you can get......... some people showing pictures of a dead fetus where pregnant women already stressed about their pregnancy.......... or mourning women who have miscarried or had a still birth...... will see them........ is just these people looking for their next high that they get when the public rush over to scream angrily in their faces.

I fear for what their next move will be when they start getting accustomed to this dosage and they need to escalate again. What have the westboro people done since targeting mourners at funerals?

Apart from physically attacking police and members of the gay community you mean?

gctest50

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There was certainly an emphasis on not intervening when there was a heartbeat detected but that was when the consultant was unaware of the sepsis diagnosis. When that diagnosis was made and the results relayed to her, a termination was ordered. Indeed, many other consultants have said that while the 8th impacted on their judgement (it was designed to after all) they felt it never hindered them and they were always able to terminate pregnancies if they felt they needed to. Many that were due to severe sepsis in fact.

Saying that the 8th caused Savita's death is overlooking just how poorly she was treated and how inept her care was:

gctest50 wrote: »

At what time / date did she request a termination ?

.

When the patient and her husband enquired about the possibility of having a termination, this
was not offered or considered possible by the clinical team until the

afternoon of the 24th of October

due to their assessment of the legal context in which their clinical professional
judgement was to be exercised. The Irish constitution Article 40.3.3 (as inserted by the eight amendment in 1983) states that: ‘the state acknowledges the right to life of the un
born and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right’

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/nimtreport50278.pdf

nozzferrahhtoo

DubInMeath wrote: »

Apart from physically attacking police and members of the gay community you mean?

Well I meant more at the level of emotional attacks rather than physical ones, but yes we have to hope that this is not the escalation direction our local version of them decides to take. If they have not been already.

nullzero

DubInMeath wrote: »

I don't remember you posting any facts during your 34 posts on here, most were just short posts designed to try and piss people off in my opinion. Your last few before today were around the fact that apparently your wife didn't inform herself of the issue and preferred to watch reality tv rather than the debates on the subject and then voted yes because it was the popular stance.

I can double check all your posts to the thread but if you want to actually highlight the ones where you provided facts, then please do.

That's complete nonsense.
If my posts pissed you off it's because shock horror, my opinion was different to yours.
The notion that I haven't "provided facts" is a ridiculous one.
I'm sure you won't check my posts for clarity because it will show your complete ignorance of the reality of the situation.
I see you have collected a nice amount of thanks for your tirade against me, from the usual people who share your penchant for rash judgement and intolerance of differing opinions.
My last post on this thread was in reply to a post made by Overheal about the gender pay gap, in which he provided a link to an article on the journal which he felt repudiated my claim that the notion of a gender pay gap is exaggerated. The article itself contradicted what he was saying and I pointed out the facts to him which he ignored in favour of having an argument with a poster called The Golden Miller.
Essentially he was made to look foolish and so avoided any further discussion to post more argumentative nonsense on an unrelated topic.
Overheal is a bully, and I'm simply highlighting that fact and to be completely honest you're not a particularly pleasant individual either.
The quicker people here learn to accept that people have differing opinions and deal with that like adults the better.

_Dara_

spookwoman wrote: »

When was she told she was going to have an inevitable and pending miscarriage?
Sunday the 21st.

When did her membranes brake?
Monday 22 just after midnight.

When did she Miscarry?
Wednesday 24 evening she finally miscarried.

Why did she get sepsis?
Because she was having a miscarriage and her cervix was open for 2 friggin' days!

Why did they not give her a termination when they knew she was having an inevitable and pending miscarriage?
Because of a heart beat and the 8th equal life to mother and foetus.

You don't need to be a doctor to know prevention is better than cure and you don't leave something in that is going to be a serious cause of infection.

I keep saying this but you wont listen

Yes. YES!

In my early 20s, I was perilously close to developing sepsis because of an extremely severe, undiagnosed, deep-seated infection. I’ll never forget my hospital registrar’s relief that I got myself to A&E when I did. He said that even in a young person such as myself, death from sepsis can come quickly even WITH treatment being given prompty. Sepsis is incredibly dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.

She developed sepsis because her cervix was open for much longer than it should have been. Sepsis should never have developed and most likely wouldn’t have had she been given the termination when she asked for it. This is the view of both the independent medical examiner and Peter Boylan.

It’s very clear to me that the 8th amendment has a chilling effect on the treatment pregnant receive due to how confusing it is.

I also loathe the contention that we don’t give a shit about Savita and just used her to further our cause. People were deeply shocked by her needless death and it was a galvanising moment in Irish history. I think about her a lot actually. What would she be doing now? Building her career? Raising a family. But instead she’s not here.

pleas advice

We can all agree it was a tragedy that needn't have happened

Lori2018

I overheard one man saying “ imagine what it’ll be like when the HSE take over. There will probably be a ten month waiting list.”

[Deleted User]

nullzero wrote: »

That's complete nonsense.
If my posts pissed you off it's because shock horror, my opinion was different to yours.
The notion that I haven't "provided facts" is a ridiculous one.
I'm sure you won't check my posts for clarity because it will show your complete ignorance of the reality of the situation.
I see you have collected a nice amount of thanks for your tirade against me, from the usual people who share your penchant for rash judgement and intolerance of differing opinions.
My last post on this thread was in reply to a post made by Overheal about the gender pay gap, in which he provided a link to an article on the journal which he felt repudiated my claim that the notion of a gender pay gap is exaggerated. The article itself contradicted what he was saying and I pointed out the facts to him which he ignored in favour of having an argument with a poster called The Golden Miller.
Essentially he was made to look foolish and so avoided any further discussion to post more argumentative nonsense on an unrelated topic.
Overheal is a bully, and I'm simply highlighting that fact and to be completely honest you're not a particularly pleasant individual either.
The quicker people here learn to accept that people have differing opinions and deal with that like adults the better.

Your posts don't piss me off, so guess again they may piss some people off but hey maybe that's your style of writing, some of your posts actually gave me a giggle.

I did check your posts and not once could I find a link to data to back up what you said. As I said if you wanted to link to the post(s) where you did please do and I'll stand corrected.
The closest I found was this one
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107109362&postcount=3225

If you have a problem with Overheal, try the report button. You believe I'm not a particularly pleasant poster, well OK thats your opinion and again use the report button if I'm being an arsehole or posting anything thats a lie, trying to derail the thread etc.

Sure people have different opinions, but to say people are childish and are in an echo chamber when they argue with the same posters who after the refurendum are still posting the same sh*te as they did before the vote and igoring evidence to the contrary, is that not a little childish itself and ignoring that other people have differing opinions on your behalf.

Fighting Tao

The one thing that gets me about the Savita case is that if a woman is pregnant she is told many times that if her water brakes, she needs to get to the hospital as the longer her cervix is open, the more risk of sepsis and death. Basically, a delivery has to occur by any means to ensure her life is saved.

The 8th stopped this happening because the foetus wasn't past the stage where it had a high enough chance of surviving outside of the womb.

Fighting Tao

pleas advice wrote: »

We can all agree it was a tragedy that needn't have happened

It was a tragedy but one that should never have happened and only did so because of the 8th.

pleas advice

Fighting Tao wrote: »

It was a tragedy but one that should never have happened and only did so because of the 8th.

Should never have happened, regardless

ELM327

pleas advice wrote: »

Should never have happened, regardless

And it won't happen again now.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Fighting Tao

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think your last line is inaccurate. IMO "It's shameful to 2/3 of us" would be more accurate.

Reesy

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary

John Waters claims Ireland has gone to the dogs. Can't say I agree with him, but it makes me think about the importance of religion to Irish society.

For a while I've thought that the Catholic church should consider dropping the pretence that it's part of the national fabric, and retreating to a line that it can defend - only offering its rituals to massgoers, giving up patronage of schools, or insisting on a proper relious ethos for schools that it does manage.

How many single 'yes' voters want to get married in a church / have future future kids be baptised & have first communions? Isn't this the height of hypocrisy?

Yes, I know, it would make people leave the church (and the church would lose the benefits of them turning up for the occasional ritual) but wouldn't that leave a stronger core?

7aubzxk43m2sni

Reesy wrote: »

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary

How many single 'yes' voters want to get married in a church / have future future kids be baptised & have first communions? Isn't this the height of hypocrisy?

Yes, I know, it would make people leave the church (and the church would lose the benefits of them turning up for the occasional ritual) but wouldn't that leave a stronger core?

Good question. I think a majority will still want to get married in a church, although it would be interesting to know how much of that is due to expectations from parents / family.

I think if the requirement of baptism for schools was removed there would likely be a huge reduction in the number of baptisms. Likewise if schools did not organise communions, it is hard to imagine that a substantial number of people would still choose to put their child through communion.

I think religious education in the secular sense (i.e an overview of world religions, their beliefs and practices) is still quite important though.

seamus

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Good question. I think a majority will still want to get married in a church, although it would be interesting to know how much of that is due to expectations from parents / family.

A lot of the traditions around weddings are cultural. Girls are raised watching romantic movies and fairytales where the princess has a huge white dress and a wedding in a big bright church, and they get swept up in it - and this becomes the romantic ideal.

Look at the royal wedding; how many little girls watched that and now have the seed embedding in their minds about how that's the ideal celebration.

Objectively of course it can't be denied that a ceremony in a conference room cannot compare to one out in some of the wonderful religious architecture.

But that doesn't necessarily require a religious wedding, and I wonder in years to come will we start seeing the practice of churches being bought and maintained explicitly as wedding venues rather than as places of worship.

I think if the requirement of baptism for schools was removed there would likely be a huge reduction in the number of baptisms. Likewise if schools did not organise communions, it is hard to imagine that a substantial number of people would still choose to put their child through communion.

Numbers would collapse. I think this is the main resistance. Although there would certainly be a decent amount of people doing it to give the grandparents a day out, there are a lot of people going through the motions so they can secure a school place.

kunst nugget

Reesy wrote: »

How many single 'yes' voters want to get married in a church / have future future kids be baptised & have first communions? Isn't this the height of hypocrisy?

Why? Just because they are pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean that they would ever dream of having an abortion themselves - they just won't stop someone else from having that choice.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Cupcake_Crisis

Reesy wrote: »

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary

John Waters claims Ireland has gone to the dogs. Can't say I agree with him, but it makes me think about the importance of religion to Irish society.

For a while I've thought that the Catholic church should consider dropping the pretence that it's part of the national fabric, and retreating to a line that it can defend - only offering its rituals to massgoers, giving up patronage of schools, or insisting on a proper relious ethos for schools that it does manage.

How many single 'yes' voters want to get married in a church / have future future kids be baptised & have first communions? Isn't this the height of hypocrisy?

Yes, I know, it would make people leave the church (and the church would lose the benefits of them turning up for the occasional ritual) but wouldn't that leave a stronger core?

Single yes voter here. Should I ever get married it won’t be in a church, or a religious matter. Kids will go to an educate together school. I’m very far removed from the church at this point, as are a lot of friends in my age group.

Neyite

Reesy wrote: »

How many single 'yes' voters want to get married in a church / have future future kids be baptised & have first communions? Isn't this the height of hypocrisy?

Yes, it's hypocrisy. I'm one of them. Atheist who plans on having a church wedding and kid is in a catholic school. I'm doing the former for the quiet life - my stance is that my dislike of the church is not stronger than my love for the few relatives to whom us having a catholic wedding is extremely important to them. It's meaningless to me, but means a lot to them and I want family harmony more. The school choice was simply that it's the best school that suited us. I plan to supplement the RCC doctrine he's learning with chats about other religions at home so that he's aware that he's learning about one religion of many rather than the One True Faith. Communion and confirmation will be a choice he makes for himself.

The church's grip will pretty much die out in a generation anyway, it will start in the hospitals with abortion services being required, moves are afoot to bring more and more schools away from religious influence.

I'd like to see religious instruction similar to that of the Anglican church - give the children Sunday School instruction if you want, but Monday to Friday concentrate on education. I'd prefer that if religion must be taught in schools, should be about children getting an overview of all the religions of the world and how they shape culture and laws in certain areas.

For now though, I do what suits our family best.

pleas advice

ELM327 wrote: »

And it won't happen again now.

Do you think the HSE will magically transform into a utopian healthcare system now that the 8th is gone, or do you think mistakes might still happen? Or, never mind mistakes, do you think the actual level of healthcare will magically rise to NHS standards?