SusieBlue wrote: » There was the woman on the Prime Time debate whose daughter had an FFA, I frankly found her insufferable and she was extremely rude and condescending towards the other mother who had chose to give birth to her FFA baby in the UK. One crucial element that woman forgot to recognise was that even with a Yes vote, she would still have been allowed to carry her baby to term here should she wish, that choice won't be taken from her. Yet here she is, on national telly, advocating the choice be removed from a woman in her exact circumstances. It was horrible to watch.
SusieBlue wrote: » We then had the various women who had abortions and regretted them - but at least they had the CHOICE. A choice they didn't want other women to have.
SusieBlue wrote: » And we also had the woman on Claire Byrne who claimed her 12 week old baby miscarried and came out full size, perfectly formed, with her head in her hands smiling. I'm sorry - and I know this won't be popular - but that simply is NOT possible.
SusieBlue wrote: » Then there were the various doctors, who were more concerned with their own personal beliefs being upheld than they were about their patients welfare. I couldn't believe the own goal they scored when their Doctor admitted that he would REFUSE to refer a patient elsewhere for an abortion should the referendum pass.
end of the road wrote: » it's a valid point to make in relation to abortion in general, yes. whether such could happen in ireland or not, it's probably likely it couldn't. but i would never 100% rule it out long term.
King Mob wrote: » So didn't strike you as dishonest racist scaremongering at all? Did you 100% rule out that foreigners might want to keep the 8th so that more babies were born, thus have more babies to eat?
King Mob wrote: » So didn't strike you as dishonest racist scaremongering at all?
end of the road wrote: » not at all no . i don't believe it is as such.
aloyisious wrote: » Simon Harris, Ailbhe Smythe, Mary Lou McDonald are on Claire Byrne Live now on RTE TV1 with other guests, incl David Quinn
recedite wrote: » Is this the woman you want EOTR to condemn? I think she had a baby, which survived, is that correct? In which case one of her points was that a FFA diagnosis is not always technically correct. If she had a live daughter, then the condition was not a fatal foetal abnormality. She was not being rude or condescending in saying that..
They don't have the choice to bring their aborted babies back to life, do they? They were entitled to make that point too.
I don't think she ever said "fully formed". Many times on this thread it has been pointed out by pro-choice posters that a 12 week old foetus "looks" more advanced than it actually is. That it has a recognisable baby shape but that (allegedly) its brain is "not working". This woman saw the dead foetus, and instinctively recognising the humanity of it, had an emotional maternal reaction to that sight. Don't try to take that away from her, or try to criticise her for behaving with humanity. It only reflects badly on you.
Again, they were entitled to say they wanted no hand act or part in abortion. A patient is free to go elsewhere if they want a referral. It remains to be seen how the new laws will handle this issue, but regardless, medics should have been consulted in advance if the law will require pro-life doctors to provide referrals to the newly established abortion clinics
end of the road wrote: » abortion takes the life of another human being. it doesn't need to effect me personally but it will have effects on society. the same as someone killing anyone i don't know, it won't effect me personally but it doesn't mean it isn't wrong and that society should say no to allowing it.
King Mob wrote: » What's the difference between that claim and mine that the dastardly foreigners might eat babies?
recedite wrote: » Most of them are never going to live in Ireland again, and have been out of the country for way longer than the 18 months threshold.
How is it "correcting me" when you concede the point? But thanks anyway for the unpology.
Loafing Oaf wrote: » Mary Lou suggesting carol Nolan and Peadar toibin will be shown the door if they don’t toe the line.
SusieBlue wrote: » I absolutely love how you selectively quoted me there, chopping off ... My point remains. She was incorrect. Her baby did not come out with its chin in its hands, smiling. If she needs to believe that to rationalise her loss I have no problem with it. Using that to manipulate other women into not seeking terminations, under the guise of the fact that the baby is "fully formed", is not ok and extremely dishonest.
Week 11 of pregnancy The baby grows quickly and the placenta is rapidly developing – it'll be fully formed at about 12 weeks.
SusieBlue wrote: » Well firstly, there won't be abortion clinics. This will be a GP led service. If a GP is unwilling to prescribe the two tablets required to induce a miscarriage, due to contentious objections, they are obliged to refer the patient to a GP that will.
recedite wrote: » How do you know how it came out? Were you there? I don't particularly like the term "fully formed" myself, because IMO the human body is in a constant state of change from conception right through to old age and death. Also i'm not convinced the woman in question even said "fully formed". However in this context, if we take that to mean "a recognisable human" possessing all the usual human organs etc.. then according to the British NHS...Feel free to discredit the NHS with a link to an alternative viewpoint, if you can find one. Pills only work in the early stages. I'd be very surprised if private abortion clinics don't set up here. Somebody like Peter Boylan is now in a prime position to make a financial killing by setting up his own clinic and calling it "the gold standard in abortion". Lists of GPs are easily available. The idea that a woman would go to a known pro-life GP just so she could get a referral to a pro-choice GP down the road is a bit strange. The only way I could see it happening would be for vexatious reasons. Similar to the guy who went to Ashers bakery demanding a cake with a gay slogan on it. Its more likely they'll be looking for a referral to an abortion clinic, in which case they should go to a pro-choice GP in the first place.
The baby grows quickly and the placenta is rapidly developing – it'll be fully formed at about 12 weeks.
In the UK, it has reduced the female population by between 1,500 and 4,700...gender-based abortions are happening within the South Asian population in Britain. The practice has been seen amongst British Indians and Pakistanis who believe sons will continue on the family line, and are economically preferable as they do not require dowries.
Loafing Oaf wrote: » Anyone catch Peadar's interview on SOR or PK this morning? I wonder has he been 'on a journey' since the referendum.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » I am open to correction on this but when i read the above i quote i read it as saying the PLACENTA is fully formed not the BABY.
recedite wrote: » How would the foetus get to 12 weeks without a placenta?
As the placenta develops, it extends tiny hairlike projections (villi) into the wall of the uterus. The projections branch and rebranch in a complicated treelike arrangement. This arrangement greatly increases the area of contact between the wall of the uterus and the placenta, so that more nutrients and waste materials can be exchanged. The placenta is fully formed by 18 to 20 weeks but continues to grow throughout pregnancy. At delivery, it weighs about 1 pound.
recedite wrote: » How do you know how it came out? Were you there? I don't particularly like the term "fully formed" myself, because IMO the human body is in a constant state of change from conception right through to old age and death. Also i'm not convinced the woman in question even said "fully formed". However in this context, if we take that to mean "a recognisable human" possessing all the usual human organs etc.. then according to the British NHS...Feel free to discredit the NHS with a link to an alternative viewpoint, if you can find one.
Pills only work in the early stages. I'd be very surprised if private abortion clinics don't set up here. Somebody like Peter Boylan is now in a prime position to make a financial killing by setting up his own clinic and calling it "the gold standard in abortion".
Lists of GPs are easily available. The idea that a woman would go to a known pro-life GP just so she could get a referral to a pro-choice GP down the road is a bit strange. The only way I could see it happening would be for vexatious reasons. Similar to the guy who went to Ashers bakery demanding a cake with a gay slogan on it. Its more likely they'll be looking for a referral to an abortion clinic, in which case they should go to a pro-choice GP in the first place.
recedite wrote: » Not this old trick again. Dismissing all debate by calling the other person a racist.Sex selection abortions already happen in the UK. A political decision has been made to "bring abortion home". If Irish women are not to travel to England for abortion, then we must expect that abortion laws here will eventually be harmonised, more or less, with those in England. Therefore the presumption, beyond a reasonable doubt, is that sex selective abortions will also happen here. They won't be recorded as such, because those seeking them will not be required to give any reason for their "choice".Technology and testing is advancing all the time. It is already possible to test for eye color and various racial characteristics at a very early stage for "in vitro" fertility treatment pregnancies. Note this is not about "choosing" the desired characteristics from a colour chart. Its about culling all the undesirables, until only the desirables are left.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » fully formed placenta. The english shouldn't be that hard for you to understand.https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/women-s-health-issues/normal-pregnancy/stages-of-development-of-the-fetus
Just 12 weeks after your last period, the foetus is fully formed. All the organs, muscles, limbs and bones are in place, and the sex organs are well developed. From now on, the baby has to grow and mature.
And we also had the woman on Claire Byrne who claimed her 12 week old baby miscarried and came out full size, perfectly formed, with her head in her hands smiling. I'm sorry - and I know this won't be popular - but that simply is NOT possible.
King Mob wrote: » So we should have voted No to prevent those dastardly foreigners from having gender selective abortions then? Yes. That is a racist argument. If you don't like people pointing out it's a bit racist, don't use it. It's arguments like the above that cost your team this referendum.
recedite wrote: » Well, lets say the NHS text I quoted is ambiguous. But the next paragraph in the same link is not. It makes sense that the foetus and the placenta develop in tandem, so when one is "fully formed" so is the other. But as I said "fully formed" would not be my choice of words.
recedite wrote: » Incidentally, your link there shows an image of a foetus at 8 weeks, with head in hands, and is that a sort of smiley face I see?
recedite wrote: » Same old strawmanning and calling others racist. But too cowardly to put forward your own argument. I said "beyond a reasonable doubt" sex selective abortions will happen, and I explained my reasons for thinking that. Will you now deny that, and tell me they won't happen? And give reasons for why you think that? If not, just GTFO.
recedite wrote: » Pills only work in the early stages. I'd be very surprised if private abortion clinics don't set up here. Somebody like Peter Boylan is now in a prime position to make a financial killing by setting up his own clinic and calling it "the gold standard in abortion".
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » A despicable, potentially libellous slur on the professionalism and motivations of Prof Boylan.
SusieBlue wrote: » Ok, please explain, coherently to me, how the No FFA mother who saw through her pregnancy in the comfortable care of Ireland was affected by the Yes FFA mother travelling to the UK to have her pregnancy induced? Please explain the effects it would have had on that woman. I'm all ears.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » the original post you responded to said perfectly formed and full size. We can argue over perfectly formed but a 12 week old fetus is not full size.
King Mob wrote: » It's a racist argument. Pure and simple. You are arguing that we should not allow abortions based on the presumed actions of some foreigners. This is regardless of whether or not these groups actually engage in this behavior. Note also, that the first person to use this argument refused to identify which group he was accusing, nevermind any evidence, instead pretending that he "just wanted to know if that group existed". So we also have the fact that this is dishonest. And because it's an attempt to stoke fear and emotion, we can describe it as fearmongering and propaganda.
The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class and gender—contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; fear that the perpetrators' ethnicity would trigger allegations of racism and damage community relations; the Labour council's reluctance to challenge a Labour-voting ethnic minority
recedite wrote: » Not only that, but you ignore the only genuine racist angle to this. The whole concept that people in future will be able to selectively abort foetuses based on racial characteristics such as eye colour or skin colour.
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