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Work issue with holidays

Steven Seagal

So I work in an IT job where my shifts are 3 days on, 2 days off, and have been saving my paid holidays for an extended trip away with my gf.
It would be 8 paid days off in total and mentioned it to my boss a few months back and told me to just fill in our usual PTO Form and ask him to sign it closer to the time.
So last week I filled it in and he told me his boss is now the one approving time off requests and she needs to sign off on it but had refused my request.
I told my boss the purpose of the trip was to propose to my gf and the holiday was all inclusive and non refundable, I have paid near 8k for this. He was very sympathetic and saod he would have approved it no prob but his boss still refused.
Just before Christmas another person on my team took 11 pto days off in a row and we werent informed of any changes to the lengths we were allowed to take at a time.

Any ideas what my options are here???
It’s a very expensive loss if I cant go and would seriously consider resigning over it.

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jimmycrackcorm

Pelvis wrote:

I'd be leaving, but I wouldn't tell them that until the day before you go off on holiday.

OP has to give notice. But that month could include the holiday period so hand in notice roughly two weeks before going on holiday.

There'll always be other jobs but life's too short to abandon a holiday costing thousands.

[Deleted User]

Is the person who said no based in the US?
They can have funny notions about holiday time and presenteeism.

Edit: I don't know why you have to deal with your managers manager about this.

Sit down with you manager and outline what you agreed, tell them that as agreed you won't be there that time and let them do their job and manage.

RedXIV

I think the key thing here is the fact that working in IT, especially if based near Dublin, there are tons of jobs out there, and coupled with the fact that it's a pain to train someone else up, that should work in your favour. But to be honest, rather than trying to work it out with the current bosses, I'd be looking at moving. Maybe it's a case of being lucky but in the last few jobs I've been in, I've felt appreciated which is important to me. If I couldn't get some sense of give and take with management, I'd be moving on immediately.

jamesbere

Just a word of advice op, always get holiday requests in writing and confirmed by management. A letter, request form, email or even a text. Once you cover your backside there's nothing to worry about. Verbal is fine if you can trust the word of the person of above you but they could conveniently forget closer to the time. Hasn't happened to me but I know of people it has happened to.

Can make things very stressful for when it's a time you should be relaxing.

[Deleted User]

RedXIV wrote: »

I think the key thing here is the fact that working in IT, especially if based near Dublin, there are tons of jobs out there, and coupled with the fact that it's a pain to train someone else up, that should work in your favour. But to be honest, rather than trying to work it out with the current bosses, I'd be looking at moving. Maybe it's a case of being lucky but in the last few jobs I've been in, I've felt appreciated which is important to me. If I couldn't get some sense of give and take with management, I'd be moving on immediately.

Being in IT is a major plus in the OPs favour - there's no shortage of well paying jobs out there at the moment - they could even have a short term contract lined for when they come back from honeymoon so no gap of employment if things are played right!

Banterbus28

Of you are in IT maybe consider Agency or consulting?

Tske as much time off as you please

stateofflux

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

OP has to give notice. But that month could include the holiday period so hand in notice roughly two weeks before going on holiday.

There'll always be other jobs but life's too short to abandon a holiday costing thousands.

whether to give notice or notice or not depends mostly on the need for a good reference and the likelihood of the action affecting your new employment -- the chances of ex employers following up with litigation are rare apart from in specific professions

jimmycrackcorm

stateofflux wrote:

whether to give notice or notice or not depends mostly on the need for a good reference and the likelihood of the action affecting your new employment -- the chances of ex employers following up with litigation are rare apart from in specific professions

The op has a sympathetic and understanding manager who will give a reference. Giving the proper notice even including holiday entitlement will mean that the company cannot give a bad reference either.

Also it's pretty common now that companies only give references that specify dates worked.

In IT it's not a problem.

yogi37

First thing I would do is start working on my CV and get that out there. Regardless of how this works out that I would not want to be working under that manager long term.

I would defo be taking the holiday and all going well (she says yes) your going to be paying for a wedding soon so will need a job to get saving.

In the meantime, I would be fighting my corner as others have suggested by arranging meeting with the manager who has rejected your request. Explain your situation and outline that you had verbal approval to take the AL. Dont step out of line but also dont let them push you around.

If training a replacement would be more costly to your employer than giving you the leave you are in a strong position for the negotiations.

Del2005

Banterbus28 wrote: »

OP clearly stated that colleagues have been treated differently.

Also it is highly likely that the manager that originally verbally agreed the leave has done the "verbal agreement then put it in writing later" on multiple occasions.

As such it is unfair treatment

OP said someone got 11 days before but they are looking for more than 11 days. They are working shifts so that's over 3 weeks and they have arranged a swap of some other shifts so it's around a month they want off. There's also the possibility that the company learnt a lesson from letting the last person off for so long and have now changed policy.

AmberGold

I've skipped a fair bit of the replies as I'm getting annoyed reading about how you are being treated.

Ok the facts as I see them are are:

1. Your request is not unreasonable
2. You gave them lots of notice
3. You received verbal approval
4. The precedent has been set, its allowed

You've tried the softly softly approach so now the gloves are off.

I'd draft a letter to HR & other senior bods copying them all and seeking confirmation of the leave. Time to put everything in writing, if it's declined I'd lodge a grievance. If that's overturned cite constructive dismissal and resign yourself to leaving, albeit under (hopefully) a compromise agreement. They pay you a parting gift for all this hassle.

You can also stipulate in the compromise agreement that they have to give you a reference, some employers will only state the dates you worked there as a reference anyway.

While you are resigned to leaving, don't leave, take it easy, become a clock watcher, drag it out & take your time finding the right job all while you have a formal complaint lodged. They won't be able to get rid of you at this point.

Don't worry about references, I've worked with people who've been sacked from senior roles for all sorts of reasons (some dodgy) and are now working back in similar roles at other companies.

Most of all don't stress and don't let it ruin your planned vacation, there are lots of jobs out there.

I don't normally advise things like this but your managers' manager seems like a right hatchet and without a doubt this is unfair.

davo10

AmberGold wrote: »

I've skipped a fair bit of the replies as I'm getting annoyed reading about how you are being treated.

Ok the facts as I see them are are:

1. Your request is not unreasonable
2. You gave them lots of notice
3. You received verbal approval
4. The precedent has been set, its allowed

You've tried the softly softly approach so now the gloves are off.

I'd draft a letter to HR & other senior bods copying them all and seeking confirmation of the leave. Time to put everything in writing, if it's declined I'd lodge a grievance. If that's overturned cite constructive dismissal and resign yourself to leaving, albeit under (hopefully) a compromise agreement. They pay you a parting gift for all this hassle.

You can also stipulate in the compromise agreement that they have to give you a reference, some employers will only state the dates you worked there as a reference anyway.

While you are resigned to leaving, don't leave, take it easy, become a clock watcher, drag it out & take your time finding the right job all while you have a formal complaint lodged. They won't be able to get rid of you at this point.

Don't worry about references, I've worked with people who've been sacked from senior roles for all sorts of reasons (some dodgy) and are now working back in similar roles at other companies.

Most of all don't stress and don't let it ruin your planned vacation, there are lots of jobs out there.

I don't normally advise things like this but your managers' manager seems like a right hatchet and without a doubt this is unfair.

How is this constructive dismissal and on what would base your demand for a good reference?

While I think the op was hard done by, and this is making some people's blood boil, talking crap about suing for holiday costs and bringing a case for CD does not help the op. The fact remains, the op didn't have AL approval, that only comes after a written request is submitted, and AL is, legally, at the discretion of the employer.

Banterbus28

The constructive dismissal theory in this situation is baseless.

There has been no disciplinary proceedings started. There's no indication management are trying to make OP leave the company.

hots

davo10 wrote: »

How is this constructive dismissal and on what would base your demand for a good reference?

While I think the op was hard done by, and this is making some people's blood boil, talking crap about suing for holiday costs and bringing a case for CD does not help the op. The fact remains, the op didn't have AL approval, that only comes after a written request is submitted, and AL is, legally, at the discretion of the employer.

Why only after a written request?

AmberGold

Banterbus28 wrote: »

The constructive dismissal theory in this situation is baseless.

Yes there is, the precedent has been set. The OP is not being allowed the same leave as other employees. The OP has had verbal approval.

There has been no disciplinary proceedings started.

There doesn't need to be, the employer is acting unreasonably.

There's no indication management are trying to make OP leave the company.

As above, these cases are never clear-cut. The course of action above really only applies if OP wants to leave.

MarkR

I may have glossed over some of this, but from my understanding they've rejected a holiday you had verbal approval for, and the time period is months away yet.

Hand in your notice.

Plenty of IT roles out there. You have experience and a valid reason for leaving.

davo10

hots wrote: »

Why only after a written request?

In the op, he states that boss told him he had to submit the "usual" request form to be signed for time off. Op appears to have booked the holiday before submitting the form.

Galadriel

davo10 wrote: »

In the op, he states that boss told him he had to submit the "usual" request form to be signed for time off. Op appears to have booked the holiday before submitting the form.

But wasn't the OP told that he could take the holidays and to submit the form nearer the time?

Banterbus28

Galadriel wrote: »

davo10 wrote: »

In the op, he states that boss told him he had to submit the "usual" request form to be signed for time off. Op appears to have booked the holiday before submitting the form.

But wasn't the OP told that he could take the holidays and to submit the form nearer the time?

This is my point. Yes OP may have difficulty proving it, except if there is a witness, but yes there is a verbal agreement in place. And as such there was an expectation of the leave being approved.

davo10

Galadriel wrote: »

But wasn't the OP told that he could take the holidays and to submit the form nearer the time?

Ya, that's why I think he is being harshly treated and if it was me I'd leave. But it seems there is a protocol for submitting written requests and until that is done, the employer/boss above boss can argue that it was not confirmed, and she will have the benefit of employment legislation to back up her stance that the timing is at the discretion of the employer. I asked earlier what the OPs employment contract says about leave, if it states that leave longer than a certain period requires a written form be submitted, then that's the whole ball game. Also, if a colleague has submitted a written request already for that period, the op will be at a disadvantage.

For me, the culprit in this is the ops boss, the one he asked months ago. He should have had the balls to say to his boss, " look, I gave permission for those dates, give the guy his holiday" it looks like he shrunk though.

Steven Seagal

Thanks for all the feedback, I was asked to attend a meeting at 3 today with both managers and explained my reasoning. I mentioned that I had communicated to my initial manager verbally when I was planning to take off and that I would put it in writing once we hit the summer perod for PTO requests. I also reiterated that another employee had taken a longer period off before Christmas, the US manager said that was a management mistake approving it and wouldnt happen again, so I told them I would have no option but to leave as I wasn’t not going to take the holiday. The US mananger immediately ended the meeting and scheduled another meeting next week with HR. My immediate manager was confused and told me to rethink leaving.

Dermo

Steven Seagal wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback, I was asked to attend a meeting at 3 today with both managers and explained my reasoning. I mentioned that I had communicated to my initial manager verbally when I was planning to take off and that I would put it in writing once we hit the summer perod for PTO requests. I also reiterated that another employee had taken a longer period off before Christmas, the US manager said that was a management mistake approving it and wouldnt happen again, so I told them I would have no option but to leave as I wasn’t not going to take the holiday. The US mananger immediately ended the meeting and scheduled another meeting next week with HR. My immediate manager was confused and told me to rethink leaving.

Good job on standing up for yourself.
Don't forget to mention that you have a right to take 2 weeks unbroken holidays as per: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/19/enacted/en/html unless they have legitimate reasoning.

donegal.

splinter65 wrote: »

From citizens information :

An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave.

except the op is looking for 3 weeks off

Rulmeq

Steven Seagal wrote: »

My immediate manager was confused and told me to rethink leaving.

Tell them to rethink refusing.

You have all the power in this relationship, the IT market is bubbling over, there's worhtless f*ckers getting paid nearly 70k per year in my company, and these people can barely use google to do their copy/paste coding. You can have a new job lined up before you go on holidays.

Also, once a precedent has been set, then it's next to impossible for a company to undo it (without at least some sort of an incentive to take it away from you), of course where there's no union, companies can often railroad employees (but as already pointed out, you are in the position of power here, and you are within your rights to insist that you get the same treatment as the other employee)

Banterbus28

The length of time the OP is requesting off is irrelevent. The manager has approved it verbally.

The OP had the good nature and good faith to approach the manager before the summer leave window opened.

The manager agreed to it.

There seems to be a circumstantial administrative limitation within the Company's policies, which isnt the OPs concern.

need i.e. summer leave period. And as such the OP was under the impression thay this had been sorted before the summer leave period had opened for requests as they knew that it may cause an issue closer to the time, so got it okayed beforehand then the company has operated in bad faith (the manager wjo agreed the leave jas operated in bad faith) and technically didn't follow company policy himself so good luck trying to disciplining the OP.

Immediate manager has just wrecked his credibility within his team and with his own management.

Tefral

Steven Seagal wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback, I was asked to attend a meeting at 3 today with both managers and explained my reasoning. I mentioned that I had communicated to my initial manager verbally when I was planning to take off and that I would put it in writing once we hit the summer perod for PTO requests. I also reiterated that another employee had taken a longer period off before Christmas, the US manager said that was a management mistake approving it and wouldnt happen again, so I told them I would have no option but to leave as I wasn’t not going to take the holiday. The US mananger immediately ended the meeting and scheduled another meeting next week with HR. My immediate manager was confused and told me to rethink leaving.

I know you probably don't think you did the right thing now OP, but once this is over save this thread. Come back to us in 6 months and tell us do you regret it. I've been down this road before, you'll be better off for it!

con___manx1

I need a day off tomorrow the company cut staff just for 2 months to cut costs. The company directors upstairs need there bonus.
Will be callin in sick tomorrow. Dont get pushed around op.

Brian201888

Well OP how did the follow up meeting with HR go?

Steven Seagal

Eoghan_2 wrote: »

Well OP how did the follow up meeting with HR go?

Sorry for the delay, long story short, the meeting turned into a lot of he said, she said about approving time off. I contacted the colleague who had a longer PTO request approved last year and he agreed he would provide testimony if I wanted to take this further.
Once upper management heard I handed in my notice, they said I could take 2 weeks PTO paid plus 1 extra day but no longer than that.
So I stuck to my guns and im leaving friday week.
I also have an exit interview planned on Monday and I heard that the EU director of operations sits in so will make it perfectly clear of what happened.

billybonkers

Good man for sticking to your guns, you will no doubt be much happier for it. Plenty of great IT jobs around also. Hope the proposal goes well!!