Work issue with holidays

testicles wrote: »

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No it isn't. Make a grievance...

Rulmeq

Banterbus28 wrote: »

No it isn't. Make a grievance...

Not only that, but this could very easily be construed as constructive dismissal if OP did resign over it. Espeically given the precedence of someone taking 11 days holidays.

Having said that, this is the fault of he spinless manager who is making out as if this was someone else's fault. From what I can see the HR person is attempting to put her stamp on things. But frankly, if you are qualified and experienced in IT then you should be fighting this hard (and dragging the manager who approved this kicking and screaming into it, this is his fault, and he should suffer for it). Verbal agreements are accepted by judges, where on the balance of probability they believe you (assuming there's no glaring reason for them not to believe you)

splinter65

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nowhere, you have no entitlement to unbroken leave

From citizens information :

An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave.

modmuffin wrote: »

You need to request a meeting with your bosses boss, explain in a clear, calm and rational way what has transpired.
Apologise for the misunderstanding, nobodies fault etc, and then give her an option to reflect and to approve leave.

If she argues with facts (such as company procedure etc) - use emotion (ie intent to propose, financial burden etc)
If she argues with emotion (no cover for the company etc) - use facts.

Either way she will respect you more for addressing the issue head on in a calm and measured way.

If you don't get approved, hand in your notice with your head held-high, but do so having worked towards a solution (as opposed to throwing toys out of the pram).

Also - remember its a pain in the ass for the company to replace you too. A couple of weeks inconvenience is a small price to pay.

Finally, if you do leave - make sure to do an exit interview with HR and explain exactly the circumstances for your departure. (If I found out one of my managers behaved this way they would face disciplinary.)

I would dare one of my managers to this, they'd have a very very bad time.

Jim2007 wrote: »

If you want to go on leave, then stop pussy footing around!

Send an email to all three of them, inform them that based on the verbal approval of your manager you have already booked your holidays and they now have a choice of either confirming your leave or fulling compensating you for all your costs. The alternative is that you will seek legal advice on how to recover your costs from the company or failing that from them individually.

Personally I find that nothing brings managers to their sense so quickly as when they realise they many have to justify their actions in a court of law and will not be able to hide by hind their company.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but what law would you think the op could use to threaten his employer? Employment law clearly states that leave times are at the discretion of the employer. That being the case, how could the op use the legal system to recover costs for leave which his boss told him he had to submit a written PTO form for?

I think the best advice on this thread was posted by modmiffin, ask for a meeting with bosses boss and put your case forward, explaining how the situation reached this point. If she says no, I suspect she couldn't care less whether you leave or not.

As a matter of interest op, are other members of your team on AL at the same time you want and did they send in request forms for consideration/confirmation?

davo10 wrote: »

Jim2007 wrote: »

If you want to go on leave, then stop pussy footing around!

Send an email to all three of them, inform them that based on the verbal approval of your manager you have already booked your holidays and they now have a choice of either confirming your leave or fulling compensating you for all your costs. The alternative is that you will seek legal advice on how to recover your costs from the company or failing that from them individually.

Personally I find that nothing brings managers to their sense so quickly as when they realise they many have to justify their actions in a court of law and will not be able to hide by hind their company.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but what law would you think the op could use to threaten his employer? Employment law clearly states that leave times are at the discretion of the employer. That being the case, how could the op use the legal system to recover costs for leave which his boss told him he had to submit a written PTO form for?

I think the best advice on this thread was posted by modmiffin, ask for a meeting with bosses boss and put your case forward, explaining how the situation reached this point. If she says no, I suspect she couldn't care less whether you leave or not.

Simply because hop made a significant financial outlay based upon a verbal agreement that he would be able to take it off. Regardless of it being in writing or not there was an expectation that it would be approved.

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Simply because hop made a significant financial outlay based upon a verbal agreement that he would be able to take it off. Regardless of it being in writing or not there was an expectation that it would be approved.

But what law are you basing that on? The organisation of working time Act clearly states that AL is at employer discretion so it can't be that. The boss said the op must submit a PTO form for confirmation, that was only done recently after holiday booked.

I think the op got a raw deal and if they don't give him the time off, he will have no option but to leave. But, legally, the op jumped the gun booking before AL was confirmed. Also, if be interested in what the ops contract says about AL, does it for instance state that request for leave over a certain length of time must be submitted in writing?

davo10 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Simply because hop made a significant financial outlay based upon a verbal agreement that he would be able to take it off. Regardless of it being in writing or not there was an expectation that it would be approved.

But what law are you basing that on? The organisation of working time Act clearly states that AL is at employer discretion so it can't be that. The boss said the op must submit a PTO form for confirmation, that was only done recently after holiday booked.

I think the op got a raw deal and if they don't give him the time off, he will have no option but to leave. But, legally, the op jumped the gun booking before AL was confirmed. Also, if be interested in what the ops contract says about AL, does it for instance state that request for leave over a certain length of time must be submitted in writing?

Employment law is a framework there was a consensual agreement ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

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J Mysterio

splinter65 wrote: »

From citizens information :

An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave.

Use this

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Employment law is a framework there was a consensual agreement ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

No, The OWTA states that an employer must take into account family needs and recreation time when considering a request. The family needs doesn't apply here, the employer is not refusing leave that has been accrued, merely the timing. I don't see how the op can take legal action to recoup costs. If leave was granted then withdrawn, then yes, but the key fact is that op submitted a written request only recently for leave in September and it was refused 4 months in advance.

testicles wrote: »

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Yes. It. Is.

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Simply because hop made a significant financial outlay based upon a verbal agreement that he would be able to take it off. Regardless of it being in writing or not there was an expectation that it would be approved.

Utterly irrelevant[/quote]

So what your saying is that the employment rights set down under European employment law and the ECHR simply don't apply?

You have a right to appeal you weapon. First inside the organisation and then outside the organisation.

Clear discrimination as well. One employee got 11 days OP got chinned..

gordongekko

davo10 wrote: »

But what law are you basing that on? The organisation of working time Act clearly states that AL is at employer discretion so it can't be that. The boss said the op must submit a PTO form for confirmation, that was only done recently after holiday booked.

I think the op got a raw deal and if they don't give him the time off, he will have no option but to leave. But, legally, the op jumped the gun booking before AL was confirmed. Also, if be interested in what the ops contract says about AL, does it for instance state that request for leave over a certain length of time must be submitted in writing?

Ive done this loads of time myself. The chat goes something like this.

Me.. Myself and the gf are thinking of going away long haul in September. Whats the story around holidays?

Boss. Ah ya shouldnt be any problem. Fill in the holidayform nearer the day.

Me. Grand

I book the holidays give the boss the dates and he signs them off.

Banterbus28 wrote: »

So what your saying is that the employment rights set down under European employment law and the ECHR simply don't apply?

You have a right to appeal you weapon. First inside the organisation and then outside the organisation.

Clear discrimination as well. One employee got 11 days OP got chinned..

European law does not necessarily mean it applies here, an example of this is consumer law, our SOGASSA is different from EU law.

davo10 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

So what your saying is that the employment rights set down under European employment law and the ECHR simply don't apply?

You have a right to appeal you weapon. First inside the organisation and then outside the organisation.

Clear discrimination as well. One employee got 11 days OP got chinned..

European law does not necessarily mean it applies here, an example of this is consumer law, our SOGASSA is different from EU law.

Good point. Except European employment law applies everywhere in the EU. It is generally incorporated into local legislation but it does mirror.

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Good point. Except European employment law applies everywhere in the EU. It is generally incorporated into local legislation but it does mirror.

In some cases our laws grant more rights than EU law, but that does not mean EU law applies here.

Another example is, the EU has ruled that the way Ireland applies car VRT is illegal in some instances, but in Ireland the legislation allows for it to be applied.

Look at this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/20/enacted/en/html#sec20

davo10 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

Good point. Except European employment law applies everywhere in the EU. It is generally incorporated into local legislation but it does mirror.

In some cases our laws grant more rights than EU law, but that does not mean EU law applies here.

Another example is, the EU has ruled that the way Ireland applies car VRT is illegal in some instances, but in Ireland the legislation allows for it to be applied.

Look at this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/20/enacted/en/html#sec20

But i'm tslking about employment law you weapon.

Banterbus28 wrote: »

But i'm tslking about employment law you weapon.

That is the employment law relating to annual leave, it's there in plain English. The example I gave as in response to your statement that EU laws must be applied here, only if they are adopted into Irish law, you weapon yourself.

I'm not talking about the law applying to annual leave i'm talking about the law that applies to fair and equal treatment.

Which I know for a fact applies everywhere in the EU.

Shakey_jake

Just quit OP

Life's too short, the next job is always around the corner its not like your gunna be there forever anyway

Twats!

stateofflux

brookers wrote: »

Go on your holidays, when you are as old as I am, you will look back and wonder why you even worried about this. How dare she stop you. Enjoy life and dont let some rotten boss stop you. She must be some sour bitter person, it is the summer people entitled to go on holidays. Never ever let another person treat you like this.....

I agree with this. there is a duty of self respect to yourself here also...which is worth more than any job. On principle i would take the holiday without a second thought. would not resign either as it may affect your social welfare entitlements.

Banterbus28 wrote: »

I'm not talking about the law applying to annual leave i'm talking about the law that applies to fair and equal treatment.

Which I know for a fact applies everywhere in the EU.

What are you on about? There is a specific law relating to employment, it is The Organisation of Working Time Act. This applies to granting of annual leave, that is the link I posted. Granted I might have missed a post by the OP saying a different rule was applied to him than his fellow employees, but from his posts, it seems a PTO form has to be submitted before leave is confirmed.

This post has been deleted.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/19/enacted/en/html

davo10 wrote: »

Banterbus28 wrote: »

I'm not talking about the law applying to annual leave i'm talking about the law that applies to fair and equal treatment.

Which I know for a fact applies everywhere in the EU.

What are you on about? There is a specific law relating to employment, it is The Organisation of Working Time Act. This applies to granting of annual leave, that is the link I posted. Granted I might have missed a post by the OP saying a different rule was applied to him than his fellow employees, but from his posts, it seems a PTO form has to be submitted before leave is confirmed.

OP clearly stated that colleagues have been treated differently.

Also it is highly likely that the manager that originally verbally agreed the leave has done the "verbal agreement then put it in writing later" on multiple occasions.

As such it is unfair treatment

JaCrispy

(3) The annual leave of an employee who works 8 or more months in a leave year shall, subject to the provisions of any employment regulation order, registered employment agreement, collective agreement or any agreement between the employee and his or her employer, include an unbroken period of 2 weeks.

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testicles wrote: »

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Policies change, nothing illegal about that... "Unfair" treatment is subjective and definitely not one of the grounds for discrimination[/quote]
It is if if the person allowed leave is a differnet gender, race, religion or sexual orientation...

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Stheno

mod

enough of the name calling.