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Accident

standardg60

Was out for a cycle with my friend, car overtakes us approaching a speed ramp, then slows for the ramp allowing my friend to pass back up to about rear passenger window, I was about three metres behind.
Car then indicates for left hand turn which was about 20ft beyond the ramp and edges in to approx. 45cm from the kerb..i am 2 metres behind, decide that they are making the turn and hit the brakes as hard as I can.
At the same time car has spotted my friend, about level with passenger window, and has jammed on. My bike is already flipping as I hit the rear of the car, I've somehow managed to flip to the lhs of the car, cuts and bruises and a very stiff knee, bike carries on and breaks the rear window.
Driver is claiming they saw us and said I just ran into the back of them.

Any advice or opinions welcome..

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circular flexing

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm possibly misreading the story - but the OP caught up with the car because it had reached a speed ramp; not because it was slowing and indicating for a left turn. an overtake of a car on the right because it has reached a speed ramp is not a manouevre which you'd normally expect to have to perform.

Correct I meant an overtake on the right after the car had indicated left turn and possibly started the left turn manouevre .

In any case, my point is that as soon as car comes to overtake me (even if there's a speed ramp) I usually tap the brakes and let the car go ahead. It's just safer (imo).

standardg60

circular flexing wrote: »

You could have pulled in behind the car after it had overtaken and then when it went to make the left turn, you could have swung around the right hand side of it instead. Going up or ending up the inside of a car (particularly close to a junction) is madness, imo. In this case I don't really car what the rules of the road are, I'm the more vulnerable road user and I need to take account of that.

You don't seem to understand, this was a suburban road with free flowing traffic passing at all times, there are no lights, so you keep to the inside.

circular flexing

standardg60 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand, this was a suburban road with free flowing traffic passing at all times, there are no lights, so you keep to the inside.

No I understand well and am in the same situation on a daily basis (I commute a long a road that has a number of speed ramps). Taking the lane and not keeping to the edge is the safest way to cycle on these roads (ime).

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm possibly misreading the story - but the OP caught up with the car because it had reached a speed ramp; not because it was slowing and indicating for a left turn. an overtake of a car on the right because it has reached a speed ramp is not a manouevre which you'd normally expect to have to perform.

the motorist appeared to have decided to turn left and indicate so *after* the cyclists caught up with him or her.

I don't think they would be expecting a cyclist to undertake at a speed ramp or to have caught up. As a cyclist I wouldn't undertake a car coming up to a left except very slowly. The driver should leave more room and be more aware, as indeed the cyclists anticipation could have been better.

Sorry the OP got hurt, glad its not serious. But rather than do the blame game I think there's a lot for all parties to learn from this. Slight miss judgement from everyone.

beauf

standardg60 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand, this was a suburban road with free flowing traffic passing at all times, there are no lights, so you keep to the inside.

Sounds like one of those roads where you need to a bit more careful.

As a cyclist, I find suburb roads, have some of the worst drivers on them. Therefore I'm expecting the worst.

Rechuchote

ED E wrote: »

Not important, he rear ended the car.

Honestly, this sounds to me like drastic, inattentive driving.

OP had a choice, whether to crash into another person on a bicycle or into the car - not enough room to stop after the car came swerving in - and chose the car. This could've been a fatal crash if s/he had taken the other choice.

Lumen

If we strip out the speed ramp and other cyclist, we get (I think):

- Car overtakes cyclist just before slamming on brakes to turn left.
- Cyclist fails to match the braking of the car, crashes into rear of car.

Clearly it is bad driving to overtake anything immediately before a left turn, but bicycles are well known to have poorer braking performance than cars so the driver is being particularly irresponsible/clueless. And that's even ignoring the vulnerability of the cyclist which warrants a greater degree of care.

What is the cyclist supposed to do? Brake every time they get overtaken in case the car slams on the brakes?

edit: having said that, if the bike was going fast enough at the point of collision to break the rear window, there was probably an element of inattention on the part of the OP. The braking differential isn't that bad.

RacoonQueen

Probably a shared liability situation really. The driver shouldn't have overtaken and then gone to turn left straight away unless they knew they could clear you both. Sounds like they weren't paying attention though as they hadn't even seen you both before/during their overtake and admit that they were lost(?), based on the story, so sounds like they were focused on finding somewhere to turn and not actually paying attention to what else was going on around them.

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

but bicycles are well known to have poorer braking performance than cars
...
The braking differential isn't that bad.

maybe i read it wrong, but i read that the brakes were *too* good:

My bike is already flipping as I hit the rear of the car

i read that as the bike flipped under braking, which would explain why it was high enough to smash the rear windscreen.

Glass fused light

Lumen wrote: »

If we strip out the speed ramp and other cyclist, we get (I think):

Do cyclists cycling in single file normally aim to go over the ramps or do they aim to use the gap between the ramp and the pavement?

TheChizler

To me it sounds like a car overtook, slowed down, and in quick succession indicated, moved left, and slammed on without leaving the OP sufficient gap to stop before they drew level with the car. I don't know how the OP could get any blame for that.

Their companion only got away without incident because they had started to overtake on the left when the car originally slowed down and the driver saw them. The OP had no such luxury.

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe i read it wrong, but i read that the brakes were *too* good:

i read that as the bike flipped under braking, which would explain why it was high enough to smash the rear windscreen.

Poor braking, not poorer brakes. As in slowing down the bike, not slowing down the wheel.

Wishbone Ash

Glass fused light wrote: »

Do cyclists cycling in single file normally aim to go over the ramps or do they aim to use the gap between the ramp and the pavement?

I'd go over the ramp - trying to squeeze between the end of the ramp and the kerb is an incident waiting to happen especially in the wet.

(If you're referring to speed cushions, I either go around them or over the top - depends on the scenario).

Pkiernan

standardg60 wrote: »

Was out for a cycle with my friend, car overtakes us approaching a speed ramp, then slows for the ramp allowing my friend to pass back up to about rear passenger window, I was about three metres behind.
Car then indicates for left hand turn which was about 20ft beyond the ramp and edges in to approx. 45cm from the kerb..i am 2 metres behind, decide that they are making the turn and hit the brakes as hard as I can.
At the same time car has spotted my friend, about level with passenger window, and has jammed on. My bike is already flipping as I hit the rear of the car, I've somehow managed to flip to the lhs of the car, cuts and bruises and a very stiff knee, bike carries on and breaks the rear window.
Driver is claiming they saw us and said I just ran into the back of them.

Any advice or opinions welcome..

I hope you are ok.
The above reads to me that your friend decided to undertake the car on the left side when it slowed down. This is very unsafe cycling. You and your friend should have remained behind the car.

Kaisr Sose

Glass fused light wrote: »

Do cyclists cycling in single file normally aim to go over the ramps or do they aim to use the gap between the ramp and the pavement?

No clear cut policy for me. It depends on:
The height of the ramp
It’s condition, before, on and after
The surface (gap and condition) between it and kerb
Road surface-wet or dry
Volume of traffic

Kaisr Sose

standardg60 wrote: »

Sorry should have said they rang the guards, but moved the car before consulting me and before they arrived.
First thing the guard said to me was that they had their indicator on..
I've yet to make a statement, was a bit shook up at the time so only really coming to terms with it now.

Hope you are OK!

In my view, no motorist that is paying attention and being considerate of other more vulnerable road users should attempt to overtake, if their intention is to turn left, or stop very soon after overtaking. It happens too often though.

A car would not overtake another car or vehicle and then drop anchor or turn left so what makes it ‘OK’ to do this to a cyclist?

The motorist should cop on in this situation and realise their inatention/ poor driving put in train a series of events that led to this incident. Its chicken and egg stuff. Motorist is unlikely to agree.

Make your statement but Garda will be useless in a civil matter. Its no harm to get yourself a free consultation with a solicitor. The driver may be chancing their arm here. Get their insurance details (which are obligatory for the motorist to provide to Garda) and report incident to their insurance company. They will regard a potential claim as reason to note on the drivers record/file, and they may loose their NCB for being too stupid to realise or quit when they are ahead.

standardg60

Thanks to all who took the time to read and post their observations..positive or negative all appreciated.

Knee was very swollen and stiff this morning but hopefully nothing a couple days rest won't sort out (I was able to cycle home afterwards).
On reflection things could have been a lot worse, speaking to my friend today we both agreed he was in the more vulnerable position, had he been slightly further back out of the driver's eyeline who knows what could have happened.

Just a note on the undertaking observation, he had passed back up to the inside as the car slowed for the ramp, not the turn, and before any indication was given, and the car was still well out in the road. We're not reckless, this was the first incident we've had in over five years of regular cycling.

Will update as to any outcomes.

Fann Linn

Did any of the parties involved have camera footage?

standardg60

Unfortunately not..it was only after the car was moved that we realised we should have taken a pic of its position on the road, but you just don't think of those things in the aftermath.

Pkiernan

Question for me would be why would your friend even want to undertake the car when it slowed down?
Why wouldn't your friend just slow down?
If undertaking o the road as you describe, surely there wouldn't be a metre space either.

Not having a go, and the car driver sounds very inattentive, but your friend made a big mistake here.

circular flexing

standardg60 wrote: »

he had passed back up to the inside as the car slowed for the ramp, not the turn, and before any indication was given

That doesn't matter - going up the inside of any moving vehicle is madness.

magicbastarder

i do it all the time. cycling in any urban environment involves filtering up past slower moving traffic. i have often passed cars which have slowed for speed ramps - i can usually take them without slowing down.

amcalester

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do it all the time. cycling in any urban environment involves filtering up past slower moving traffic. i have often passed cars which have slowed for speed ramps - i can usually take them without slowing down.

Agreed, certain sections on my commute where I pass cars on the left as they slow for ramps.

@OP if this motorist overtook you, indicated and moved left and then slammed on I’d be asking for his insurance details and then letting his insurance company decide if he is liable.

circular flexing

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do it all the time. cycling in any urban environment involves filtering up past slower moving traffic. i have often passed cars which have slowed for speed ramps - i can usually take them without slowing down.

Yes but would you do it if there was a junction 20 feet after the ramp? It's all about situation awareness. Now if the traffic was moving slowly (e.g. because of a tailback) and there were no junctions coming up, then I would say that proceeding slowly up the inside is probably safe but always be aware of the fact that a car might pull into the left for no reason. Yes they would (potentially) be in the wrong but what use is that if you are the one who ends up seriously injured.

I approach all cycling with the following in mind: 1) I'm going to come out the (physically) worse off in any impact with a car. 2) one of the cars surrounding me is going to do something unpredictable.

Kaisr Sose

circular flexing wrote: »

Yes but would you do it if there was a junction 20 feet after the ramp? It's all about situation awareness. Now if the traffic was moving slowly (e.g. because of a tailback) and there were no junctions coming up, then I would say that proceeding slowly up the inside is probably safe but always be aware of the fact that a car might pull into the left for no reason. Yes they would (potentially) be in the wrong but what use is that if you are the one who ends up seriously injured.

I approach all cycling with the following in mind: 1) I'm going to come out the (physically) worse off in any impact with a car. 2) one of the cars surrounding me is going to do something unpredictable.

You do know that a motorist is supposed to indicate well before a junction (20ft does not satisfy that requirement), and before manoeuvring, check mirrors...not indicate at the last minute.

Please don’t put the onus on the cyclist to second guess every single motorist. Motorists have responsibilities to all other road users.

[Deleted User]

standardg60 wrote:

Was out for a cycle with my friend, car overtakes us approaching a speed ramp, then slows for the ramp allowing my friend to pass back up to about rear passenger window, I was about three metres behind. Car then indicates for left hand turn which was about 20ft beyond the ramp and edges in to approx. 45cm from the kerb..i am 2 metres behind, decide that they are making the turn and hit the brakes as hard as I can. At the same time car has spotted my friend, about level with passenger window, and has jammed on. My bike is already flipping as I hit the rear of the car, I've somehow managed to flip to the lhs of the car, cuts and bruises and a very stiff knee, bike carries on and breaks the rear window. Driver is claiming they saw us and said I just ran into the back of them.

I hope every one is OK.

The way you describe it doesn't put you in a good light. I wasn't there so I'm not saying who was in the wrong.
You decided that he was turning. Didn't his indicator tell you this was happening anyway? Regardless of why he hit the breaks you seemed to be cycling too fast and close & not prepared for him to stop.
I'm not having a pop at you. I wasn't there. It's just the way that you describe it. Maybe you are still shaken.
I hope you aren't too badly injured.

[Deleted User]

standardg60 wrote:

Intrigued by the replies so far..is a car entitled to take up my space on the road just by an indicator. In a split second I took the lesser of two evils..self preservation kicks in.

Yes. A car in front of you indicating left has right of way. Even in a dedicated cycle lane the car has right of way when indicating & in that lane. If you tried to squeeze in beside him you are undertaking him.

amcalester

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I hope every one is OK.

The way you describe it doesn't put you in a good light. I wasn't there so I'm not saying who was in the wrong.
You decided that he was turning. Didn't his indicator tell you this was happening anyway? Regardless of why he hit the breaks you seemed to be cycling too fast and close & not prepared for him to stop.
I'm not having a pop at you. I wasn't there. It's just the way that you describe it. Maybe you are still shaken.
I hope you aren't too badly injured.

OP says he pulled the brakes as hard he could as soon as he saw the indicator and still ended up hitting the car. In fact he was flipping over the handlebars regardless.

Not much he could have done to avoid a car that overtakes him, moves left and then slams on; indicator or no indicator.

amcalester

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Yes. A car in front of you indicating left has right of way. Even in a dedicated cycle lane the car has right of way when indicating & in that lane. If you tried to squeeze in beside him you are undertaking him.

This is not necessarily true.

It is illegal for a cyclist to pass on the left if the motorist is indicating AND likely to complete the maneuver before the cyclist can pass.

I don’t think that’s applicable here though because the OP wasn’t really passing on the left until the motorist started to brake and move left.

[Deleted User]

amcalester wrote:

Not much he could have done to avoid a car that overtakes him, moves left and then slams on; indicator or no indicator.

He was too close for the speed he was going.

OP also said he planned to overtake him on the right because he was turning. Op saw that he was turning but didn't slow down. Op didnt slow down because he planned to overtake on the right. The car had to break & op went in the back of the car. Too close for the speed.

Driver sounds like a dick driver too that could use some lessons & a month in driving manners class.
If it were me my windscreen cover sorts out the window (well I don't actually have a back window) & if there was only a scratch on the bumper I wouldn't be looking for anything from the cyclist. End of the day I'd be relieved that no one was badly injured regardless of who's fault