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Child Item

Is my child being groomed?

LegacyUser

Going unreg for this as its obviously a sensitive subject.

I have a 4 year old son, very outgoing and social who adores his 11 year old cousin. This cousin has been exhibiting some behaviour which has concerned me and I would appreciate any advice on this.
Although there is a large group of cousins within a similar age bracket, this 11 year boy tends to pal off with my 4 year old. This is a boy who I always thought was a bit strange and manipulative. The parents are divorced and I know he saw some abuse in the marriage in his early childhood. He is a very nervous and anxious boy and is prone to emotional break downs, although his mother maintains he's fine and just of a sensitive nature.
Lately I have noticed that when my son is around, he segregates him from the group and takes off him to play just the 2 of them, occasionally joining in on the wider group play.
This week, which is what really concerned me, he took him off for a walk without asking anybody. I quizzed my 4 year old and he maintains it was just a walk and they came back when he got tired. The 11 year old was spoken to about it and told not to go off again without asking but my concern is why is an 11 year old so intent on hanging around with a 4 year old and segregating themselves. Obviously I know I need to keep an eye on this, its just difficult when its family, I have no proof, just a weird feeling that its not right and I keep saying no to sleep overs, which I have caught the 11 year old whispering to the 4 year a couple of times to 'ask your mam if you can come to my house'. Am I over reacting? 11 seems very young to start grooming a child, would he have the mental capacity to do that? Any advice appreciated.

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Neyite

It might not be sinister - the boy may feel more comfortable playing with younger children and enjoy being a kind of role model for your son. Especially if he's a little bit anxious or has other issues. I've a son a year older and his cousin who's 11 and he get on brilliantly like brothers so it's not that odd for an older child to get on well with a younger one. One on one play should not be a cause for concern either.

But it's good practice to have boundaries that apply to all children for general safety and caution. An 11yo is too young to mind a child of that age alone or to take them off for a walk. An accident could occur, or they could still get lost or be approached and neither have the maturity to deal with difficult situations.

Have you had any chats with your son about bodily privacy /autonomy in an age appropriate manner or any of that yet? That's always a good idea, and have rules about secrets as well. Keep chatting to your son and asking questions about his day hanging out with his cousin - I always found bedtime a good time to have a chat about the little cares of the son's day.

Your instincts are telling you something is off and its no harm to be cautious even if it turns out to be nothing.

ahnow

Hi, child/child abuse is much more common than people would think and it is a possibility that that is what’s happening here. You could ask the 11 year old why they wanted to go for a walk with the child, and then tell them you dont want them going off like that, just so that the 11 year old can see you have noticed it.
Abuse can happen very quickly, can last only a split second and can happen when in the company of others so it’s good that you’re keeping an eye on things. A very close eye is recommended.
It could be innocent but if you think something is off it probably is. I would echo what Neyite said and educate your child on body privacy and knowing it’s ok to say no etc. There’s plenty of age appropriate advice on the internet.

Edit: sorry, just re-read that the 11 year old was spoken to about the walk!

The Bishop Basher

Trust your gut. You’re not over reacting.

SuperRabbit

It really could be either. Maybe the 11 year old wants to be able to take care of someone in the way he wasn't taken care of, maybe it feels meaningful for him, like a little brother. It sounds like he's been through a lot.

But maybe not, maybe you are right to feel worried. I don't know what I'd do, but I'd' probably start by talking to the 11 year old. I'd say "You and __________ are really close, aren't you

" and then see if he expanded on that, listening to him, asking him open ended questions, giving him a chance to talk about his feelings so you could try and use your grown-up brain to assess what's going on. If there is something wrong, he won't be able to hide it, but if he thinks that you are annoyed he might get very shy about it, even if it is innocent.

I really don't know, it's a very difficult situation and I wish you and your son the best of luck.

Rubberchikken

I agree it could be a sensitive anxious child that finds a younger childs company easier.
But id also keep a close eye. Your child is only 4. He needs to be looked out for. Tbh how would you feel if years later something horrible came of this?

They can play together they just need supervising.

eviltwin

I'd contact the CARI helpline, don't have the number offhand unfortunately, but they are experts in sexual abuse, sexualized behaviour and grooming. They will be able to talk it through with you and give you advice.

Ghekko

Don't leave him in a situation where he can be alone with the 11 year old. If all cousins are playing together make sure your son stays with them. If he veers towards the 11 year old call him back and encourage the 11 year old to join in with the group instead. Go with your gut and whether it's right or wrong it's best that your son is within your sights at all times so as nobody has opportunity to bring him off on his own. Make sure you reiterate that they are all to stay together in the house/garden to the older cousins whenever they get together.

Dial Hard

I think "grooming" is a very strong word to use here. It implies a level of cunning, manipulation and forward planning that I'm not sure is present here or that an 11-year-old is even capable of. I suspect it's as others have said; that he simply feels more comfortable with a younger child: there's less pressure to be cool, less pressure to have his sh*t together, he can regress somewhat to an easier time, etc.

But, as others have also said, it's never too early to have an age-appropriate chat with your son about boundaries, agency over his body and whatnot. You should be doing this anyway, tbh. I wouldn't even bring the cousin into it, make it an "anyone" conversation.

Xterminator

Hi Op

Grooming is a specific behaviour & relates to an intent to abuse a child. As you have no reason to suspect sexual abuse is the motive for befriending your child its totally wrong to use the term grooming. it is at least possible that you are the one with the problem, as opposed to the 11 year old child.

However as a parent if you feel the relationship is suspicious or unhealthy you can and should act accordingly to shield your child.

ManOfMystery

Dial Hard wrote: »

I think "grooming" is a very strong word to use here. It implies a level of cunning, manipulation and forward planning that I'm not sure is present here or that an 11-year-old is even capable of. I suspect it's as others have said; that he simply feels more comfortable with a younger child: there's less pressure to be cool, less pressure to have his sh*t together, he can regress somewhat to an easier time, etc.

But, as others have also said, it's never too early to have an age-appropriate chat with your son about boundaries, agency over his body and whatnot. You should be doing this anyway, tbh. I wouldn't even bring the cousin into it, make it an "anyone" conversation.

You may be right, but don't underestimate what an 11yr-old is capable of. Jamie Bulger was taken away, tortured and murdered by two 10-yr olds. I would hope that that scenario is so far removed from this situation that it shouldn't even be considered, but in this day and age I would certainly be talking to that 11 yr-old and asking him not to go off alone like that again,

The OP's first priority is to the well-being of his child so whilst I would urge them not to over-react, it is certainly prudent to take some precautions here.

meathstevie

ManOfMystery wrote: »

You may be right, but don't underestimate what an 11yr-old is capable of. Jamie Bulger was taken away, tortured and murdered by two 10-yr olds. I would hope that that scenario is so far removed from this situation that it shouldn't even be considered, but in this day and age I would certainly be talking to that 11 yr-old and asking him not to go off alone like that again,

The OP's first priority is to the well-being of his child so whilst I would urge them not to over-react, it is certainly prudent to take some precautions here.

I think it may be a bit too far fetched to bring the Jamie Bulger case into this especially since one of the murderers has since been proven to be a callous cold blooded serial offender. That type of extreme characters are fortunately far and few between.

On the other hand some open questions like "What do you guys get up to when you're playing together ?" or "You seem to be getting on really well with your cousin, what do you get up to when you're playing together ?" could shed quite some clarity.

LegacyUser

When I was 4 I loved hanging around with my 11 year old cousin. In fact, I still like the guy 30 years later.

I was an only child, had no brothers and sisters and missed out on that. My cousin had a younger sister that wasn't into boys things so i was the surrogate brother if you like.

If he is an anxious child chances are that the rest of the group of cousins pick up on that and may ostracise him for it. He may feel like an outsider and the only person that listens to him is your boy.

A small bit of affection from a loner does not mean that he is being groomed.

Bear in mind, if you mention this to your family and this turns out to not be the case, be prepared for losing your family and possibly a defamation lawsuit

Not everyone is a paedophile/pederast.

LegacyUser

I couldn't not reply although I'm not really sure how to put this into coherent words. I was sexually abused when I was 10 by a 19 year old "boy" and obviously looking back this was "abuse" and completely his fault. However, when I was even younger - about 6 or possibly 5 - a boy my age who had been around a lot of older kids "experimented" oral sex with me on several occasions. I don't think he had any deviant or sinister intentions (I actually still know him and he is a really sound guy) but obviously it still wasn't okay.
What I'm trying to say (not very well) is that it might be nothing and the 11 year old just finds it easier and less stressful being around a younger person. Or you're instincts could be spot on but, even it the older boy is doing things he shouldn't or being more curious than he should be, it doesn't necessarily mean he is grooming your child or that it could escalate to anything more. Although obviously it needs to be prevented, if it's innocent curiosity then it should be able to be dealt with easily. Your instincts might be correct but you don't need to automatically jump to the very worse possible conclusion.

wiggle16

I think it could be either or. Grooming is, as another poster said, a bit strong for this sort of situation, and in all likelihood there isn't anything sinister going on - but if you get a bad feeling from it, you shouldn't dismiss it outright.

The 11yo could simply find it easier to get along with a 4yo if he has poor social skills or is poorly socialised. He gets to decide everything when theyre together, the 4yo idolises him, he might just like having a little sidekick. And that's fine.

At the same time, i think if the 11yo is pushing for playing together alone, or having sleepovers, you have every right to limit that on the grounds that you don't consider it age appropriate for your son - grooming or sinister behaviour need not come into it.

I don't think youre overreacting but you have no other evidence other than a (very justifiable) bad feeling, so i wouldn't separate them entirely, but treat your 4yo as you would in any other situation: don't let him get into a position where he would be at risk from someone else. If they play, they have to stay where you can see them etc.

I think its probably nothing sinister, but it is a little strange.

never_mind

Not dismissing the OP here but if it were an 11yo girl would you have the same suspicions?

You need to remind yourself that it’s ok to supervise play, particularly with a 4 year old, and that an 11 year old does not have the capacity to look after your child. Start drawing boundaries and consider discussing bodily autonomy with your child.

LegacyUser

Op please trust your gut on this, keep an eye on your son and reinforce with him to come to you if he ever feels uncomfortable. I was in a similar situation as a child, singled out by an older cousin, i don’t remember much of what happened just snippets and the awful feelings of dread and fear when I was alone with him, eventually it got to a point where I told my mother that he made me feel uncomfortable, I was never alone with him again. Fast forward to last year when a younger cousin admitted he abused her over a number of years, I can’t help thinking that it was being comfortable enough to approach my mother that saved me. Just reassure your son that he can come to you whatever the situation

zoobizoo

Calm Down wrote: »

If he is an anxious child chances are that the rest of the group of cousins pick up on that and may ostracise him for it. He may feel like an outsider and the only person that listens to him is your boy.

A small bit of affection from a loner does not mean that he is being groomed.

Bear in mind, if you mention this to your family and this turns out to not be the case, be prepared for losing your family and possibly a defamation lawsuit

Not everyone is a paedophile/pederast.

Think this post says it all.

LegacyUser

My brother was groomed and made to "play" sexual games (abused) when he was 5 years old. The guy who did this to him was around 13 at the time.

None of us knew as they were just "kids together", playing in the other room while the adults were chatting.

My brother is an alcoholic and his life is ruined - he has never got to a headspace to follow up on this and get some counselling or what have you (you can't save a person from themselves), so as so many abused people, he chose escapism instead.

Be very, VERY vigilant, OP. Trust your instincts. An early abuse can absolutely ruin a person's whole life, the damage is so far-reaching. Trust me, I know, and I dearly wish I didn't. Don't gamble with your child's life.

shesty

I don't know if he is being groomed but if I were you I would not let them out of eyeshot when they are all together.And no to sleepovers, end of.It may be totally innocent but you would never forgive yourself if it wasn't. Look at it that way.

SirChenjin

As others have said, not necessarily anything other than a lonely child who sees your little guy as being like a little brother.

Do as you have been doing, keep a very close eye. Make sure you always know where your own child is. If there is an opportunity to encourage the other children to include the older child into whatever they are doing, take it.

Sleepovers would be an absolute no no, in my view anyway, as four is far too young.

LegacyUser

OP here. Thank you for all of your messages and I took them all on board and agreed with many of you. In particular, the ones who said that maybe the fact that he is an anxious child with few friends that he enjoyed the attention my youngest gave him. I also agreed that yes if it was a girl displaying this behaviour it wouldn't have alarmed me as much.
So while we agreed to keep a close eye on it, we thought maybe we were over reacting.
Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny. I told him he shouldn't have that and had the chat about not touching anyone's underwear areas unless it was me, his dad or a doctor. A few days later we went for a family day out with said boy. He kept trying to take him off by himself but we were watching all the time and seperated them, but my oldest son, who is 13 noticed and got extremely upset that night and said he was worried about what was going on. He didn't sleep all night. And he did not ever hear any conversations about this that we had. We have also since found out that on the last sleep over, a few months ago, that the older cousin got my son out of bed in the middle of the night to play video games. He was quizzed about this too but said they just played video games. I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war. The struggle now is my little lad is constantly on about going for another sleep over, which my sister encourages and when in front of each other, she asks why can't he come. I know we have to keep saying no obviously but some day I'll be asked why I keep refusing.

rainbowtrout

Worried....... wrote: »

Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny.

That's quite a specific thing he asked your younger child to do and obviously inappropriate, I don't think you are overreacting at all.

Worried....... wrote: »

I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war.

The thing is this cousin is behaving inappropriately. The child might not fully understand what they are doing, but it is not right. And your sister needs to have a chat with her son.

I don't think the family member you spoke to is correct myself. Covering things up and sweeping things under the carpet is how children were abused in the past and nothing was done. You are aware that this cousin is acting inappropriately so at least you can nip it in the bud, but it might come to having to chat to your sister.

I don't have experience of this, as most wouldn't but maybe if you do talk to her keep it factual. 'Mary, I was at home with '3 year old' the other day and she was chatting and said that '11 year old' asked her to touch his willy with her foot several times. She doesn't understand that it's inappropriate as we hadn't had that chat yet, but we have now and I have chatted with her about it, so perhaps you need to talk to '11 year old' in a similar manner. Perhaps point out that he needs this talk sooner rather than later as it's better to nip that behaviour in the bud quickly. It might mean that you don't have to go down the route of suggesting there was anything sexual or abusive about it, but at the same time if she doesn't take you seriously, then you might have to spell it out a bit clearer and tell her that you won't be letting you child stay over until this is sorted. It might also be worth saying that you are able to say this as her sister, but it's not the type of thing she wants a call about from the parent of a friend of his or from his school, if he repeats the behaviour elsewhere, if you really want to get the message home to her.

Your sister is also being a bit of a shit stirrer by winding up your child in front of you by asking why he can't come over.

The Bishop Basher

Worried....... wrote: »

OP here. Thank you for all of your messages and I took them all on board and agreed with many of you. In particular, the ones who said that maybe the fact that he is an anxious child with few friends that he enjoyed the attention my youngest gave him. I also agreed that yes if it was a girl displaying this behaviour it wouldn't have alarmed me as much.
So while we agreed to keep a close eye on it, we thought maybe we were over reacting.
Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny. I told him he shouldn't have that and had the chat about not touching anyone's underwear areas unless it was me, his dad or a doctor. A few days later we went for a family day out with said boy. He kept trying to take him off by himself but we were watching all the time and seperated them, but my oldest son, who is 13 noticed and got extremely upset that night and said he was worried about what was going on. He didn't sleep all night. And he did not ever hear any conversations about this that we had. We have also since found out that on the last sleep over, a few months ago, that the older cousin got my son out of bed in the middle of the night to play video games. He was quizzed about this too but said they just played video games. I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war. The struggle now is my little lad is constantly on about going for another sleep over, which my sister encourages and when in front of each other, she asks why can't he come. I know we have to keep saying no obviously but some day I'll be asked why I keep refusing.

Honestly you need to trust your gut on this.

It’s rarely wrong.

Your kid is being groomed and sexually abused to some extent. Let’s hope it’s all been “innocent” enough up to now.

I don’t know how you should deal with it as I don’t know your family dynamics but I’d be putting my kid first and would be prepared to walk away from family members over something so serious and damaging to your child.

There’s nothing I wouldn’t do to make sure those two are never ever alone together again.

I really hope this works out ok for you and your son OP..

ahnow

Contact Tusla.
If a man did that to your child it would be considered abuse. It is abuse, and your child is being groomed. Have you told your sister about the foot incident?
I would be very matter of fact about it all, x is not going for sleepover’s at y’s house because of inappropriate behaviour. It’s as simple as that.
I think you need to give Tusla a ring and get them involved because if he’s been grooming your child there will be other children involved down the line at risk. It is now your legal obligation to bring this forward.
Also I know that it’s very difficult to manage around families but your child should not be anywhere near this other child now that you know what you know. Think about it. When your child grows up they’ll wonder why their mother put them anywhere near someone they were abused by, even in family settings. It ****s their boundaries up and ****s with their self work, and how the immediate family deals with it is central to this.
I think you need more help than just posting on boards, you need proper advise because this is far too serious.

LegacyUser

This makes for uncomfortable reading for me. When I was a girl of 9 or 10 my paternal uncle started bringing me for walks. We'd go into a field that had a hill in it and sit down. Then he'd put his hand down into my underwear and feel my private parts and ran my hand over the front of his trousers. This was back in the 1980's when sex education wasn't what it is now and I didn't know what was going on. It didn't really bother me at the time but I think it has had a profound effect on my life right up to this day. Luckily for me, my mother began to worry about these walks and one day asked me some questions. I honestly can't remember what I told her or what was done at an adult level. All I know is that the walks stopped and I don't think I ever spent time on my own with this uncle after that. He has since died and I didn't go to his funeral.

My blood ran cold reading your story. It's not just that this boy is behaving inappropriately towards your son. It's the way it appears to be brushed off by the rest of the family. It goes without saying that you should make sure your son is never left alone with this fella again. What if this fella starts behaving like this towards other children? Now is the time to be looking into what's going on with him so that he doesn't turn into a full-blown kiddie fiddler. It also begs the question - where did his urges come from? Has he been looking at porn? Has someone else been interfering with him? This isn't the sort of matter that should be laughed off or brushed under a carpet. It's serious.

professore

Worried....... wrote: »

OP here. Thank you for all of your messages and I took them all on board and agreed with many of you. In particular, the ones who said that maybe the fact that he is an anxious child with few friends that he enjoyed the attention my youngest gave him. I also agreed that yes if it was a girl displaying this behaviour it wouldn't have alarmed me as much.
So while we agreed to keep a close eye on it, we thought maybe we were over reacting.
Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny. I told him he shouldn't have that and had the chat about not touching anyone's underwear areas unless it was me, his dad or a doctor. A few days later we went for a family day out with said boy. He kept trying to take him off by himself but we were watching all the time and seperated them, but my oldest son, who is 13 noticed and got extremely upset that night and said he was worried about what was going on. He didn't sleep all night. And he did not ever hear any conversations about this that we had. We have also since found out that on the last sleep over, a few months ago, that the older cousin got my son out of bed in the middle of the night to play video games. He was quizzed about this too but said they just played video games. I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war. The struggle now is my little lad is constantly on about going for another sleep over, which my sister encourages and when in front of each other, she asks why can't he come. I know we have to keep saying no obviously but some day I'll be asked why I keep refusing.

This is simple. Your son comes first. He is in danger. You need to get him out of danger. If that means falling out with your whole family then so be it. It's worth it to prevent him having his life potentially destroyed.

Your sister clearly has huge issues and lives in denial. They are not safe people to be around your kids.

Big Bag of Chips

Did you tell your sister what happened when her son was putting on your son's shoes? That is something you know definitely happened. And it is something that can be very simply and very directly dealt with. She needs to speak to her own child about touching and being touched. She needs to tell him it is inappropriate to touch other people, and to explain it is inappropriate to have other people touch him.

He might be doing this completely of his own accord, or he might be acting out something that was done to him or is being done to him. Either way he is 11 and definitely should be spoken to about it.

You also have to make absolute certain that your child is never in a position to be alone with him. I wouldn't care who would take exception to it, or who I might upset. Your child is your priority.

seenitall

I could have written professore's post myself, OP, word for word.

Please please consider the seriousness of this situation for your child's wellbeing and development, you absolutely have to open up the situation and draw lines in the sand here. Remember how abuse and evil thrive in secrecy and coverups. I would not hesitate one second in telling my sister that her child will not get an opportunity to harm my child, no matter how lovely a family it is or how sisterly a sister she is. Where is your protective parent's instinct? Follow it, please. For your child's sake.

SirChenjin

Please please listen to your own instincts.
Your child relies on you and his dad to keep him safe. He has no idea, naturally enough, that there is anything wrong with what the other child asked him to do. It's a pity that any sleepover was allowed as it would be easier now to keep saying that your child is too young, and that's that.

I certainly would be telling your sister that the subject of sleepovers is not to be brought up again. I know it will be difficult but you really need to tell the other child's parents what has happened. It is possible that the eleven year old has experienced abuse of some description which is leading him to this type of behaviour.

Above all else, keep your child away from the older child.

PressRun

You need to have a conversation with your sister asap and make it very clear what your child told you. Your sister may not believe what you tell her and it could create a falling out, but I would be prepared to put my child first in this situation. Your child is still very young and may not even be able to fully express everything that has happened between him and the cousin. Hopefully it has not escalated beyond what he has told you, but I would be keeping him away from the cousin until a serious conversation has been had with your sister.

It is also important for your sister to know about this behaviour as it could indicate that someone has been doing something like this to her son, which would need investigating also. Where did he pick up this behaviour and why is he imparting it on your son? The child may need counselling.