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Child Item

Under-age training misconduct

Ardent

Interesting article today about alleged mistreatment of under-age players at St Mary's GAA club in Athenry, Galway. The author pulls no punches, naming and shaming all involved and providing full transcripts of conversations. It's pretty shocking stuff - both the alleged conduct towards these kids and the subsequent attitude from the club's hierarchy.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Without naming names and all that, I wonder how widespread this behaviour is throughout the rest of the country?

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K.G.

Putting ten year olds into a u 14 setup was a very poor decision by the parents in my view no matter what the circumstances.as for the club its handling of the whole thing was poor as well.i wonder was this man in charge bwcause nobody else will do the job.when there is a good team theres always a load of sharks trying to get the glory but the poorer bunches often end up with clubman who does it because no one else would bother with them

nice_guy80

dieselbug wrote: »

Well they shouldn't be hearing it in either place and if a coach needs to swear at 10 year old'd to get his message across then he's not fit to be coaching them.
It's not the 10 year old's shortcoming.

true
did a parent volunteer to help out with the team to try and change the culture?

Billgirlylegs

PARlance wrote: »

Wow. I love the internet.

"There are some training sessions with a new coach, Eddie Brady, and they are invited to join the older boys for a game in Loughrea".

If the parents of the (10 YO) boys were "awkward" what was this man doing including their offspring with the U14 squad?
Did he fall out with the rest of the coaches?
Was he not opening himself up to a heap of grief unnecessarily?

It was mentioned earlier that the U12 were not winning much, but the U14 team was successful. Would the manager want his "winning" team disrupted by having this mess landing in his lap?

None of it adds up, does it?

Hitman3000

The whataboutery continues unabated.

Bonniedog

As someone who was involved with under 12s and 14s at same time, the notion of putting 11 year olds, never mind under tens against 14s is mad. There is huge difference in development of lads between those ages. A 9 year old playing hurling against someone 4/5 years older! Now, that be child abuse in my opinion.

nice_guy80

Bonniedog wrote: »

As someone who was involved with under 12s and 14s at same time, the notion of putting 11 year olds, never mind under tens against 14s is mad. There is huge difference in development of lads between those ages. A 9 year old playing hurling against someone 4/5 years older! Now, that be child abuse in my opinion.

But sure the parents know best

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

As someone who was involved with under 12s and 14s at same time, the notion of putting 11 year olds, never mind under tens against 14s is mad. There is huge difference in development of lads between those ages. A 9 year old playing hurling against someone 4/5 years older! Now, that be child abuse in my opinion.

Agreed. Not to mention probably quite embarrassing and daunting for the kids themselves. I get the impression it was a bit of a statement putting them into a different age group in itself, and I dont think that is right at all. If people can remember being that age, I dont think any lad that young would be suggesting the idea of playing against guys 4/5 years older. You might see it at u21, but that age group is hard to believe. It is the equivalent of 3rd-4th class wanting to go in against 2nd year students. I actually have experience playing football in such a situation (small schools, low on numbers), and I neither enjoyed it nor wanted it to continue. I only did it because that was the only option for me at the time. And club level would be a step up again...
Realistically, they were never going to get picked to play, and similarly, they were probably a bit young to be of the mind to make a move like that of their own accord.

Now the guy handled it poorly, no question about that, but my feeling is the kids were let down on both sides.

If the parents didnt like how the thing was run, they can get involved in the club a bit more themselves and try to improve things.

Billgirlylegs

Bonniedog wrote: »

As someone who was involved with under 12s and 14s at same time, the notion of putting 11 year olds, never mind under tens against 14s is mad. There is huge difference in development of lads between those ages. A 9 year old playing hurling against someone 4/5 years older! Now, that be child abuse in my opinion.

Maybe there is a directive from HQ about it - It's a while since I was involved in under age GAA, so apologies if that is the case.
Are you saying that clubs never play U12s on U14 teams?
I found the problem was U14 / U16, and some early maturers at 15 could be quite physically imposing.

BTW these two were 10yo as stated in the article, and they were training with U14s - not Under 10s playing 14 year olds.

I'm not sure at that age that there is that big a difference/problem.
Anyway, didn't these boys just go training with the U14s and were invited to join them for the game by the manager?

MayoAreMagic

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Maybe there is a directive from HQ about it - It's a while since I was involved in under age GAA, so apologies if that is the case.
Are you saying that clubs never play U12s on U14 teams?
I found the problem was U14 / U16, and some early maturers at 15 could be quite physically imposing.

BTW these two were 10yo as stated in the article, and they were training with U14s - not Under 10s playing 14 year olds.

I'm not sure at that age that there is that big a difference/problem.
Anyway, didn't these boys just go training with the U14s and were invited to join them for the game by the manager?

Was that corroborated with the manager himself? Or is it the version the parents told kimmage? It just seems strange that there would be such a differing idea between club members. You would wonder if that invitation was to come along to the game rather than actually tog out for example...

K.G.

Involved at u 14 at the moment and theres guys that would blow me out of nevermind ten year olds.i thimk we are feeding them too goodðŸ˜Ž.i could see how the u 14 manager would keep them involved just to keep them connected with the club (in case there was another negative reation from the parents )but they should never have been brought to it in the first place.btw i m not for one second saying the club did anything right here it s just i think taking them to u 14 was a poor decision by the parents

Billgirlylegs

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Was that corroborated with the manager himself? Or is it the version the parents told kimmage? It just seems strange that there would be such a differing idea between club members. You would wonder if that invitation was to come along to the game rather than actually tog out for example...

I don't know - all of my information is coming from the article/this thread.
as far as I know, the assertions in the article have not been refuted.

Wasn't it this match that the dressing room scene happened? "You have a jersey today but ..."
That suggests to me that the U14 manager was happy to bring them along as part of his setup. As I said previously, if the U14 team were winning their matches, why would the manager call all this mess down on himself?
And was there any connection with the U12 bad results and the behaviour of their manager?

cantwbr1

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Maybe there is a directive from HQ about it - It's a while since I was involved in under age GAA, so apologies if that is the case.
Are you saying that clubs never play U12s on U14 teams?
I found the problem was U14 / U16, and some early maturers at 15 could be quite physically imposing.

BTW these two were 10yo as stated in the article, and they were training with U14s - not Under 10s playing 14 year olds.

I'm not sure at that age that there is that big a difference/problem.
Anyway, didn't these boys just go training with the U14s and were invited to join them for the game by the manager?

A benign interpretation of the jersey/dressing room incident is that the secretary was telling the kids that while they were getting a jersey at sitting on the bench that day but in future they couldn’t go with the U14s and he phrased it badly or the lads picked it up wrong.

It was also my understanding that kids can only play up 2 years, so U10s shouldn’t have been near the 14s

MayoAreMagic

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

I don't know - all of my information is coming from the article/this thread.
as far as I know, the assertions in the article have not been refuted.

Wasn't it this match that the dressing room scene happened? "You have a jersey today but ..."
That suggests to me that the U14 manager was happy to bring them along as part of his setup. As I said previously, if the U14 team were winning their matches, why would the manager call all this mess down on himself?
And was there any connection with the U12 bad results and the behaviour of their manager?

You cant have it both ways...

Happyilylost

I didn't want to get back into this and it's hard to say things that aren't in the article as it can't be backed up. So people can take it for what it's worth. One of the parents (the dad) is an Athenry man all his life. And hurled for Athenry. He spoke to the U14 coach before anything happened. The U14 coach was happy for the two lads to come training which they did and then attend a game. If the U14 coach felt this level was beyond them he should of mentioned it. The fact he didn't may speak for itself. I've never know an issue of players playing above their grade if they're able. Unless things have changed I think it's common to have U12's playing U14's, U14's playing U16's and so on. The gentleman that told them not to play U14's had nothing to do with either team and should of stayed out of it. On a side note this young lad left the club and now hurls for Pearses.

blanch152

It hasn't been disputed by anyone that the U-12 manager was using bad language to kids. The club didn't act on this. In fact, it seems that the club were prepared to defend the coach all the way and subsequently broke the confidence of the child complaint process.

We don't need to know any more than that. The club needs to act in respect of the coach and the relevant officials who broke the confidence.

Deliberately breaking the confidence of a child complaint process is enough to have the club suspended. I don't think posters on this thread realise how serious such a situation is treated. That breach of confidence amounts to child abuse in and of itself.

MayoAreMagic

cantwbr1 wrote: »

A benign interpretation of the jersey/dressing room incident is that the secretary was telling the kids that while they were getting a jersey at sitting on the bench that day but in future they couldn’t go with the U14s and he phrased it badly or the lads picked it up wrong.

It was also my understanding that kids can only play up 2 years, so U10s shouldn’t have been near the 14s

I believe that was the intention, personally.

I dont believe he was wrong to convey this message, it was just the way he did it that was wrong (completely wrong at that). So that raises the question, if he hadnt made a dogs dinner of it, how would we view this scenario?

I actually think kimmage has loaded the article a bit by glossing over the whole putting 10 year old boys up against 13 and 14 year olds (skipping the u12s in the process) part. I find it strange that he didnt attempt to speak to the u14 manager who supposedly welcomed them with open arms, because he is a key figure in this, as his apparent approval, normalises an action for the reader that is in fact highly unusual. When you consider that the u14 team was going very well, which would suggest that this u14 team probably contains some of the best u14 players in the county, along with collectively being arguably the best group of 13/14 year olds in the county, surely two 10 year olds landing onto the panel requires more exploration in the piece?
I think these things werent done because they didnt suit the angle he wanted to pursue, which is his prerogative, but then it doesnt really offer a complete set of details either. Im not trying to excuse the secretary, Im just conscious that the details offered seem to direct a particular narrative to the reader.

Glass fused light

blanch152 wrote: »

It hasn't been disputed by anyone that the U-12 manager was using bad language to kids. The club didn't act on this. In fact, it seems that the club were prepared to defend the coach all the way and subsequently broke the confidence of the child complaint process.

We don't need to know any more than that. The club needs to act in respect of the coach and the relevant officials who broke the confidence.

Deliberately breaking the confidence of a child complaint process is enough to have the club suspended. I don't think posters on this thread realise how serious such a situation is treated. That breach of confidence amounts to child abuse in and of itself.

And so it should be, the children of any club or organisation which acted in the way these officials acted are put at risk by making them fearful of the complaints process.
Each child in that club is going to be very aware that the complaint was broadcast across the whole of the club and that the officials very publicly rowed in behind the adults rather than the children.
If the adults, officials and parents who turned up at the hotel can't understand why this was wrong then the club itself needs the time out to come to realise why respecting the process is so important.

gifted

nice_guy80 wrote: »

But sure the parents know best

I wonder if the Parents must knew a thing or two about hurling????.....

jmayo

Bonniedog wrote: »

As someone who was involved with under 12s and 14s at same time, the notion of putting 11 year olds, never mind under tens against 14s is mad. There is huge difference in development of lads between those ages. A 9 year old playing hurling against someone 4/5 years older! Now, that be child abuse in my opinion.

I know it is different sport, but few weeks back an u14 soccer match was on next pitch over.
Holy fook there were some big fecking lads on one of the teams. One of the lads was the size of the adults watching.
In fact we thought he was one of coaches at the start.
I seriously don't know what some kids are eating nowadays. :eek:

I have a lad playing u11 and also u13 hurling.
He wants to give up u13 as he claims he ends up being pushed around never getting the ball by lads over a foot taller than him and he would be one of the strongest lads, although not biggest, on the u11s.

As for Athenry I have heard there were issues with the particular parents and their kids. I think we have all seen it where parents think their kids deserve better and are being victimised or some such.

But the Athenry club made a total bags of this by not doing something when asked and the way they garnered support from the other parents was bullying and not very nice at all, which means they only have themselves to blame for the ban.

The sad fact is other kids, coaches and parents in no way involved also suffer.

Glass fused light

jmayo wrote: »

As for Athenry I have heard there were issues with the particular parents and their kids. I think we have all seen it where parents think their kids deserve better and are being victimised or some such.

If Athenry officials had not held a public meeting that may have been more relevant.
The fact they publicly announced that they had a problem with the parents objecting to a child safety rules being breached and spun it as a parental problem just validated the breach of process problem.

The fact that there was a Gardai report of assault back in 2015, should have made the officials sit up and notice to make sure that the coaches were covered by sticking to the child protection rules like glue.

jmayo wrote: »

But the Athenry club made a total bags of this by not doing something when asked and the way they garnered support from the other parents was bullying and not very nice at all, which means they only have themselves to blame for the ban.

The sad fact is other kids, coaches and parents in no way involved also suffer.

They should never have tried to garner support to begin with.
They should have tried to investigate and gather the facts, examine the facts in light of the rules and at least tried to reach a conclusion as to whether or not there was a problem.

If the club can learn from this the other children will be the long term winners.

Smith614

Most clubs would have a rule that u cant play in an older grade if you dont play in ur own age group. I've seen u12 players not wanting to play u12 but turning up for the u14 team. If a parent or player doesnt like a coach/selector on a team they cant decide not to play with that team & play with older team.

jmayo

Glass fused light wrote: »

If Athenry officials had not held a public meeting that may have been more relevant.
The fact they publicly announced that they had a problem with the parents objecting to a child safety rules being breached and spun it as a parental problem just validated the breach of process problem.

The fact that there was a Gardai report of assault back in 2015, should have made the officials sit up and notice to make sure that the coaches were covered by sticking to the child protection rules like glue.

They should never have tried to garner support to begin with.
They should have tried to investigate and gather the facts, examine the facts in light of the rules and at least tried to reach a conclusion as to whether or not there was a problem.

If the club can learn from this the other children will be the long term winners.

Hey if you look at my earlier posts here I have been the one claiming that the public meeting where the parents concerned were not invited and then the "show of support" at the second committee meeting in the hotel, contrary to the express instructions of the committee at the first meeting to keep this confidential, was really bullying and not on.

At this stage I think some people in the Athenry club hierarchy need to be removed so that the club can move into the 21st century and for the long term good of the club.
It doesn't matter if they have devoted their lives to the club, their operating methods are from a past we all need to move on from and they don't appear to be willing to learn times have bloody well changed.

Glass fused light

jmayo wrote: »

Hey if you look at my earlier posts here I have been the one claiming that the public meeting where the parents concerned were not invited and then the "show of support" at the second committee meeting in the hotel, contrary to the express instructions of the committee at the first meeting to keep this confidential, was really bullying and not on.

At this stage I think some people in the Athenry club hierarchy need to be removed so that the club can move into the 21st century and for the long term good of the club.
It doesn't matter if they have devoted their lives to the club, their operating methods are from a past we all need to move on from and they don't appear to be willing to learn times have bloody well changed.

Sorry I was only dipping in and out of the thread.

Better yet if they could convert, there is nothing like a reformed sinner!

Smith614

amazing the way the F word can bring down a club.

danganabu

Smith614 wrote: »

Most clubs would have a rule that u cant play in an older grade if you dont play in ur own age group. I've seen u12 players not wanting to play u12 but turning up for the u14 team. If a parent or player doesnt like a coach/selector on a team they cant decide not to play with that team & play with older team.

I have a strange feeling that this rule may find its way into the Athenry rule book in the not so distant future!!

evolving_doors

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I believe that was the intention, personally.

I dont believe he was wrong to convey this message, it was just the way he did it that was wrong (completely wrong at that). So that raises the question, if he hadnt made a dogs dinner of it, how would we view this scenario?

I actually think kimmage has loaded the article a bit by glossing over the whole putting 10 year old boys up against 13 and 14 year olds (skipping the u12s in the process) part. I find it strange that he didnt attempt to speak to the u14 manager who supposedly welcomed them with open arms, because he is a key figure in this, as his apparent approval, normalises an action for the reader that is in fact highly unusual. When you consider that the u14 team was going very well, which would suggest that this u14 team probably contains some of the best u14 players in the county, along with collectively being arguably the best group of 13/14 year olds in the county, surely two 10 year olds landing onto the panel requires more exploration in the piece?
I think these things werent done because they didnt suit the angle he wanted to pursue, which is his prerogative, but then it doesnt really offer a complete set of details either. Im not trying to excuse the secretary, Im just conscious that the details offered seem to direct a particular narrative to the reader.

That's not the issue.
Talking about something which happened subsequently is moot.
You may as well be saying it was wrong that the young lads were let have ice cream before their dinners... after being sworn at and held in a room on their own by an adult.
Unless of course it's trying to sully the reputation and motives of the parents.

granturismo

gifted wrote: »

I wonder if the Parents must knew a thing or two about hurling????.....

I think they do;

Happyilylost wrote: »

I...One of the parents (the dad) is an Athenry man all his life. And hurled for Athenry. He spoke to the U14 coach before anything happened. ...

You might also wonder if the club ever heard of 'The Code of Ethics and Good Practice for Children’s Sport in Ireland' or if the Chairperson or the coaches attended any of the mandatory GAA child protection courses for mentors.

danganabu

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's not the issue.
Talking about something which happened subsequently is moot.
You may as well be saying it was wrong that the young lads were let have ice cream before their dinners... after being sworn at and held in a room on their own by an adult.
Unless of course it's trying to sully the reputation and motives of the parents.

The incident in the dressing room happened after they were moved to U14 so your point is moo

And as a teacher I would expect you would have a small bit more concern for two 10 year olds being thrown into a highly physical sport with boys 4 years their elder and who have gone through puberty.

Calhoun

evolving_doors wrote: »

Unless of course it's trying to sully the reputation and motives of the parents.

Classic deflection, the issue as i see it was the clubs handling afterwards but you know how it is in Ireland some things are sacred until something really bad happens.

Glass fused light

danganabu wrote: »

I have a strange feeling that this rule may find its way into the Athenry rule book in the not so distant future!!

Not a lot of good that will do ,as they apparently dont follow the rules anyway.