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Frustrated trying to get an alarm

Conar

I have a new build just about to be handed over to me and I've been trying to get a quote for a wireless alarm that I can remote manage without ongoing payments.

I have tried companies that show Siemens and GSD devices and they're also insisting that what I want can't be done.

Sample response:
"The main systems out there at
the moment ar HKC,GSD or Pyronix. All good systems. If you want to monitor
it yourself it is still going to cost at least €10 euro per month for sim
card cost or app management which ever you go for."

Does anyone know where I can get an installer in County Clare that's not obsessed with signing people up to contracts?

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Effects wrote: »

Then he had no right to complain when his house was broken into because he had no alarm in place. And no right to complain about the insurance company that didn't cover the break in due to him not informing them that he didn't have a working alarm.

Huh, I thought you said he got an alarm system installed, just opted not to spend the extra on monitoring?!

So his home is still protected by an alarm system and thus would still be covered by insurance as even non connected alarm systems are.

Lets not get into selling FUD like that!

KoolKid

Effects wrote: »

Then he had no right to complain when his house was broken into because he had no alarm in place. And no right to complain about the insurance company that didn't cover the break in due to him not informing them that he didn't have a working alarm.

Again that argument is irrelevant. It can be applied to anything someone didn't want to buy.
You cant complain you got wet waiting on the bus you wouldn't buy a car....
You can't complain about washing the dishes you didn't want to pay for a dishwasher...
You can't complain you dinners taking too long you wouldn't pay for a microwave...

He has already cover the insurance issue also.

Effects

KoolKid wrote: »

Again that argument is irrelevant. It can be applied to anything someone didn't want to buy.
You cant complain you got wet waiting on the bus you wouldn't buy a car....

The situation was more like he was sick of getting wet waiting on the bus, bought a car and then complained that he had to pay to put petrol in the tank.

Effects

bk wrote: »

Huh, I thought you said he got an alarm system installed, just opted not to spend the extra on monitoring?!

So his home is still protected by an alarm system and thus would still be covered by insurance as even non connected alarm systems are.

Lets not get into selling FUD like that!

The alarm stopped working a few years ago. He didn't want to get it fixed. House was broken into twice in recent years. Insurance refused cover as alarm wasn't operational.

After most recent break in he's afraid in the house on his own and he's afraid of a break in while he's down the country, which is 8 days a month.

He wanted to get the 30 year old, faulty, Aritech alarm repaired.
I convinced him to replace the alarm and have a monitored system so he would know if there's a break in when he's away and could alert a family member in Dublin to check the house. He paid for the GSM unit to be fitted but now doesn't want to pay for the service.

builder007

Arlo pro 2 all the way

Effects wrote: »

The alarm stopped working a few years ago. He didn't want to get it fixed. House was broken into twice in recent years. Insurance refused cover as alarm wasn't operational.

And did you tell him to remove the alarm cover from the insurance and he will have no future problems with his insurance as we all pretty much recommend on this forum!

His issue was that his alarm was not operational, while included in the insurance, not that it didn't have monitoring. Had his alarm been operational and maintained then his insurance would have covered it even without monitoring. But overall best just not to include it in the insurance.

Conar

OP here with an update.

Looks like I've found an installer which will provide a GSD alarm with IP monitoring.
They pointed out the limitations, the fact that the service currently being free could change I the future, and said they'd advise the dial system with a SIM though its not required.

I was happy with this kind of response because it gave me the information I needed (though I was already pretty well informed) but didn't pretend what I wanted wasn't possible.
I'll update on the finished product later assuming I go ahead with it as I've yet to get the site survey and price.

All the installers pushing the notion of power being cut got me thinking though.
If the genuine concern is someone cutting power and the router going offline, then this can be offset with a 1 off cost of 60 odd euro for a basic UPS which would keep the router online for about a day if the power is cut.

Can anyone think of any downsides to this?

Conar wrote: »

OP here with an update.

Looks like I've found an installer which will provide a GSD alarm with IP monitoring.
They pointed out the limitations, the fact that the service currently being free could change I the future, and said they'd advise the dial system with a SIM though its not required.

Sounds like you found yourself a good installer there and he is correct, no guarantees that subs couldn't be introduced in future.

Conar wrote: »

All the installers pushing the notion of power being cut got me thinking though.
If the genuine concern is someone cutting power and the router going offline, then this can be offset with a 1 off cost of 60 odd euro for a basic UPS which would keep the router online for about a day if the power is cut.

Can anyone think of any downsides to this?

Non, lots of more techie people do exactly that and it has the added benefit that you can stay online (on your laptop, etc.) during a power outage.

A few gotchas though:

- If it is a widespread power outage, rather then just local, no guarantee that the broadband will continue to work at the cab/exchange level, though the are normally UPS'd up too, so should be good for a few hours anyway.

- In reality a burglar is much more likely to cut just your phone/cable line then the power anyway (less dangerous to them). This would take out your broadband even if the power is still up. Which is why server side polling and notification is important.

To be honest the whole taking out your power thing is rather unlikely. Though there is always the chance, in reality it is a small one. Taking out your broadband is more likely, but still relatively rare.

All alarm systems should continue to work as standard alarms in a power outage/bb cut, as in detect an intruder and make lots of noise, etc. You just might not know if out, though with a decent IP system it should notify you of an outage in a few minutes.

No such thing as perfect security.

Effects

bk wrote: »

To be honest the whole taking out your power thing is rather unlikely. Though there is always the chance, in reality it is a small one.

Except modern houses can have their power cut from outside very easily.

Effects

bk wrote: »

And did you tell him to remove the alarm cover from the insurance and he will have no future problems with his insurance as we all pretty much recommend on this forum!

Yeah, I explained all that but he just wouldn't listen. Preferred to just keep paying the premium and just not change any of the details in the policy for fear of rocking the boat.

The best thing about the alarm on his house now is that I no longer get calls to come over and close the window that's always left open at the front of the house. The alarm won't set unless it's closed.

Conar

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, I explained all that but he just wouldn't listen. Preferred to just keep paying the premium and just not change any of the details in the policy for fear of rocking the boat.

The best thing about the alarm on his house now is that I no longer get calls to come over and close the window that's always left open at the front of the house. The alarm won't set unless it's closed.

From what your saying you've still left a massive point of failure wide open in that system, and it's the user.
Some people would make the best system in the world a pile of crap and using them as an example as to why everyone needs to pay an ongoing subscription is over the top.

Again, there are plenty of installers out there willing to install unmonitored alarms, so why do almost none of them want to give me some remote management ability.
The only answer I can credibly believe so far is that they want me to be a perpetual revenue stream and they see me doing it myself as some sort of cheating their system.

Effects wrote: »

Except modern houses can have their power cut from outside very easily.

And those same houses usually have the phone/coax line at the same spot or next to it. So it makes no sense to cut the power instead of the phone/coax line.

1) It is more dangerous
2) If it is night time, it now makes the burglars life harder as they have to use flashlights, which can draw more attention.

Cutting the power doesn't get them anything extra over cutting the phone line, all alarm systems continue to work for hours even with power cut, at least as basic alarms (bells and lights).

Of course adding a UPS to your router resolves the cut power risk and decent polling helps greatly (but not completely) with cut comms.

Of course there is no such thing as perfect security. It is always a trade off between levels of security, cost and convenience.

KoolKid

Its all about marketing & the perception people have.
PW is a classic example. Spend little on the system & keep it as cheap as possible & as quick as possible to install. Spend all the money on the marketing & people think it must be the best & well worth the €40 odd a month etc.
Its the same with other manufacturers also. The installer comes around only interested in selling you one system & you get the lines like this is the best and all the others are crap.
He doesn't tell you all the others are manufactured to the same standard.
He doesn't tell you that he might not know how to install or programme any other systems.
He doesn't tell you there are cheaper options or free options available.
If you went in Harvey Normans and there was only one make of TV for sale what would you think?
If PC World only sold one make of computer what would you think.

Well done Conar for coming on and sharing your experiences. Hopefully it will open some eyes to the wider market.

Effects

Conar wrote: »

From what your saying you've still left a massive point of failure wide open in that system, and it's the user.

I wasn't using him as an example of why everyone should pay for monitoring. Just in his case it makes sense to have it, he was happy to have it installed but then changed his mind on a monthly payment.

They want me to be a perpetual revenue stream and they see me doing it myself as some sort of cheating their system.

But HKC installers don't get money out of it, HKC do. Or is there some sort of kick back I don't know about?
I'm sure they make their money by having to service it periodically.

Effects

bk wrote: »

And those same houses usually have the phone/coax line at the same spot or next to it. So it makes no sense to cut the power instead of the phone/coax line.

1) It is more dangerous
2) If it is night time, it now makes the burglars life harder as they have to use flashlights, which can draw more attention.

Cutting the power doesn't get them anything extra over cutting the phone line, all alarm systems continue to work for hours even with power cut, at least as basic alarms (bells and lights).

You don't have to cut the power cable, just flick a breaker in the meter cabinet. They are all easily accessible on new builds. It's one thing that has me worried at my own house. It would turn off my cctv. UPS system is on the list!

On the other hand, the coax goes straight from my comms cabinet underground to the Virgin media manhole, so there's no junction cabinet where it can be cut!

In my own situation I will probably install a HKC alarm, do it myself and not put it on the insurance. I will probably go for the GSM monitoring so if the alarm is triggered I can quickly log in to the cctv remotely to see what's happening.

Effects wrote: »

I wasn't using him as an example of why everyone should pay for monitoring. Just in his case it makes sense to have it, he was happy to have it installed but then changed his mind on a monthly payment.

Perhaps he didn't realise that there would be monthly fee until after you installed it?

As in he said just fix my alarm, but he didn't really understand (even though you probably explained it) that there will be fees until after it was installed.

Effects wrote: »

But HKC installers don't get money out of it, HKC do. Or is there some sort of kick back I don't know about?
I'm sure they make their money by having to service it periodically.

I agree, I don't think they are getting a kickback. More of a case that they have always installed HKC systems and nothing else and aren't willing to look elsewhere for a variety of reasons and thus they just push HKC's party line, even though it has plenty of issues.

I do think this is risky for these installers, I think HKC have taken a wrong turn with their comms choice and I don't think it is what most people want. If more people do what Conar is doing and seek out alternatives, then those installers will suffer and so will HKC. Specially if it pushes more people to DIY systems which are getting way more powerful and easy to install every year.

I hope they rethink their approach, which would end up benefiting everyone.

Effects wrote: »

You don't have to cut the power cable, just flick a breaker in the meter cabinet. They are all easily accessible on new builds. It's one thing that has me worried at my own house. It would turn off my cctv. UPS system is on the list!

Motion activated cloud IP camera (e.g. Nest, Logitech Circle, Arlo, etc.) overlooking the meter cabinet or the approach to it (depending on your house layout).

The way these work they should detect the person approaching, record it and upload it to their cloud system and notify you, before the burglar has time to cut the power.

Even with the power cut, you can still review the video from the cloud service and confirm that someone was doing something untoward.

Added bonus that my Logitech Circle Cameras give you a notification if offline for a few minutes. Though if you want to use these outdoors you might need a sub. One isn't really needed as indoor cameras.

KoolKid

Effects wrote: »

But HKC installers don't get money out of it, HKC do. Or is there some sort of kick back I don't know about?
I'm sure they make their money by having to service it periodically.

Depends on the package they sell you.
Some tie it in with service & maintenance & they are billed from HKC. Hence you are tied to both subscriptions and probably a mark up.

Drifter50

As I said before the margins we get in our industry are so skinny that the only way to get some added value is to upsell some sort of service. There is nothing wrong with selling maintenance, monitoring or APP services. Did it never strike you as odd why the major multinationals won`t even consider fitting a system without a contract. I am talking about Phonewatch, ADT, G4S etc and thats if you could even get them to fit it.

Don`t fall into the trap of using unlicenced labour tho, even your own. The PSA have teeth now and have a team in Tipperary using Google street view to trawl up and down every street, road, boreen in the country to catch and follow up unlicenced systems being installed

Drifter50 wrote: »

As I said before the margins we get in our industry are so skinny that the only way to get some added value is to upsell some sort of service. There is nothing wrong with selling maintenance, monitoring or APP services. Did it never strike you as odd why the major multinationals won`t even consider fitting a system without a contract. I am talking about Phonewatch, ADT, G4S etc and thats if you could even get them to fit it.

Yale and Honeywell will sell you DIY systems with free or very cheap self monitoring right on Amazon.

Google/Nest, Amazon, Samsung all have similar systems in the US, soon to come to UK/Ireland.

Drifter50 wrote: »

Don`t fall into the trap of using unlicenced labour tho, even your own. The PSA have teeth now and have a team in Tipperary using Google street view to trawl up and down every street, road, boreen in the country to catch and follow up unlicenced systems being installed

Complete bull, you are absolutely legally entitled to install your own security system.

KoolKid

Up selling is fine. trying to sell a customer something they don't want is not.
If a customer wants an un-monitored alarm that's fine. EN50131-1 standards allow for this & its also accepted by insurance companies.
If a customer wants an alarm with apps & doesn't want to be tied to a subscription service for the life of that system whats wrong with that?
The majority of manufacturers provide this service free of charge , so its hardly leaving you the installer of pocket. We have a mark up on the comms equipment don't we?

bilbot79

KoolKid wrote: »

You are only getting part of the story there as well I'm afraid.
In the event of a power cut or network down Siemens /Vanderbilt can notify you in less than a minute if you want.
GSD can notify you in 5 minutes.
GSD will also notify you instantly if network connection is lost after an alarm event or even entry time started.
On some of the paid options network fails are only notified after 5 hours ðŸ˜²
Keep shopping around would be my advice.

Who cares? Power cuts hardly ever happen. This would be a totally irrational factor in the purchase. Why can't they just sell an unmonitored alarm that makes loud noises when someone breaks into your house?

KoolKid

bilbot79 wrote: »

Who cares? Power cuts hardly ever happen. This would be a totally irrational factor in the purchase. Why can't they just sell an unmonitored alarm that makes loud noises when someone breaks into your house?

Most can & will.

kub

bilbot79 wrote: »

Who cares? Power cuts hardly ever happen. This would be a totally irrational factor in the purchase. Why can't they just sell an unmonitored alarm that makes loud noises when someone breaks into your house?

How can you say that power cuts hardly ever happen? Just because that may be the case where you live, it does not mean it is the same nationwide. That is one of the reasons that ESB Networks have an App to show where there are power cuts.

hatchman

kub wrote:

How can you say that power cuts hardly ever happen? Just because that may be the case where you live, it does not mean it is the same nationwide. That is one of the reasons that ESB Networks have an App to show where there are power cuts.

So a clever criminal could use the app to target areas where the power is out?

kub

hatchman wrote:

So a clever criminal could use the app to target areas where the power is out?

He would probably need a helicopter to get around that quick

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

How can you say that power cuts hardly ever happen? Just because that may be the case where you live, it does not mean it is the same nationwide. That is one of the reasons that ESB Networks have an App to show where there are power cuts.

The don't really happen on a domestic application in conjunction with a break in.
They will usually just attack the panel after gaining entry.By that stage all your alerts have gone out, including smash & grab.( if you have a good system that does that). When you get that much information its then about getting the property attended to as quick as possible.
In 30 years I have only once seen the power cut during a break in at a domestic property. And even then it was because they were so dumb they pulled the fuse board off the wall thinking it was the alarm panel.:)

kub

KoolKid wrote:

The don't really happen on a domestic application in conjunction with a break in. They will usually just attack the panel after gaining entry.By that stage all your alerts have gone out, including smash & grab.( if you have a good system that does that). When you get that much information its then about getting the property attended to as quick as possible. In 30 years I have only once seen the power cut during a break in at a domestic property. And even then it was because they were so dumb they pulled the fuse board off the wall thinking it was the alarm panel.

Still I wouldn't be relying on a customers router to get a signal out.
Also it depends on what panel you have and where it is positioned.

Drifter50

Agreed, in 30 years I have rarely come across a residential break in where any real thought has gone in to the entry beyond smash grab and run

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

Still I wouldn't be relying on a customers router to get a signal out.
Also it depends on what panel you have and where it is positioned.

I think you have missed the whole point of the debate in favour of trying to sell paid for monitoring.