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Smear Test Scandal

Sam Quentin

So are we about to have another enquiry?
It's already taking up valuable time in the Dail,.. with the 'opposition' parties shouting and blaming everyone but themselves!? When at the end of the day nobody as such is to blame, nothing is fool proof.. Cant we just be glad that the smear tests globally have saved millions of lives.....

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meep

gctest50 wrote: »

That's not the problem, the US screening doesn't suit the Irish testing system

Worse , when concerns were raised :

Someone knew, they buried it

You might have missed wherre I said;

(though I do think there will be illness and death that could have been avoided and it will likely come down to the basis on which the screen labs were engaged)

[Deleted User]

gctest50 wrote: »

Someone knew, they buried it

I get the feeling that much of the political outrage is because the testing was "outsourced".

Is the US lab doing exactly what the HSE has contracted them to do in the correct way that the contract specifies?

If they are then who specified an unsuitable test in the first place??

gctest50

Outsourcing isn't a problem

It is when the results are way less than the expected number :

"We were finding 1.8 cases per 100, they were finding 1.2.

"This was a third of a difference"

and then the doctor and scientists resign because their concerns are not heeded

Dr Gibbons also said he and a group of "very well-qualified scientists" resigned after their concerns were allegedly dismissed.

Someone got a very very large brown envelope for outsourcing

gctest50

Quest Diagnostics Ireland Limited was set up on Thursday the 23rd of April 2009

LirW

gctest50 wrote: »

Outsourcing isn't a problem

It is when the results are way less than the expected number :

and then the doctor and scientists resign because their concerns are not heeded

Someone got a very very large brown envelope for outsourcing

The problem is that the program was cut so instead of an annual screening you'd only get it every 3 years. You can treat abnormal cells easily once they're found by a simple treatment and chances are high you'll never have problems after it. But the best effect comes with annual screening.
There was talks of increasing the interval to 5 years just a few months ago.

Amirani

LirW wrote: »

The problem is that the program was cut so instead of an annual screening you'd only get it every 3 years. You can treat abnormal cells easily once they're found by a simple treatment and chances are high you'll never have problems after it. But the best effect comes with annual screening.
There was talks of increasing the interval to 5 years just a few months ago.

There's always economics involved with these things. It's entirely probably that screenings every 6 months would be better still, but you have to set the limit somewhere. You can be sure that much thought was given to setting 3 years as a reasonable timeframe.

LirW

Amirani wrote: »

There's always economics involved with these things. It's entirely probably that screenings every 6 months would be better still, but you have to set the limit somewhere. You can be sure that much thought was given to setting 3 years as a reasonable timeframe.

I don't know, the outcome of the whole thing shows differently. There are a lot of countries in Europe doing an annual smear test and afaik Ireland did have the annual too.
When there was a recent idea of a 5 year interval, I can't see how this would have been well thought through beside cost reasons.

What keeps costs down in other countries is that there are local labs, the care would be done at an annual gynecologist visit, to check if everything down there is alright in general and get a new prescription for birth control and all of them have a colposcope in their practice.

[Deleted User]

Why isn't there hundreds of #supportvickyphelan protesters marching on the HSE calling for Tony O briens job etc? here's an actual real scandal costing lives and there's no march??? yet there was a huge one for that rape case in belfast??? wtf!! I dont understand this, me and some lads were talking about this in work today, this is shocking stuff and well deserving of a day off work spent at government buildings...

This is the same HSE that were used to implicate morris mcCabe in a bogus child abuse case, the basis of which has "been lost" in an office somwhere by a civil servant!!! so while they were stitching an innocent man up they were also keeping life saving/lengthening time sensitive information from patients???

you couldn't write this stuff if you were john grisham FFS!

jmayo

Sam Quentin wrote: »

So are we about to have another enquiry?
It's already taking up valuable time in the Dail,.. with the 'opposition' parties shouting and blaming everyone but themselves!? When at the end of the day nobody as such is to blame, nothing is fool proof.. Cant we just be glad that the smear tests globally have saved millions of lives.....

Looking at the time of your posts I am just hoping that your posted this e after being out on the booze and you are not quite as big an assh*le when sober.

Somebody is very much to blame that women such as the very brave Vichy Phelan were not informed very much earlier that their smear tests were incorrect.
That is criminal negligence in my book.

Sam Quentin wrote: »

I'm very sorry for you Dara.. I really am.
But this newest 'scandal' as it's referred to, should not be taking over our Dail and it should not be costing any of us a penny. It should be looked at by HSE and 'fixed' or re-contracted.

This is our national health service.

This needs to be discussed and people need to shout about this from the rooftops, not bury it as the state and HSE tried to do with a gagging order on one of their victims.

Are you seriously saying this should be "fixed" by the very organisation that has created the mess and the coverup in the first place.

FFS you really must be totally blind drunk if you actually think that the HSE can be relied upon to internally fix itself.

irishrebe wrote: »

But he won't be affected ever, because he doesn't have a cervix. He's one of those men who have zero empathy for women and dismiss women's issues as timewasting nonsense.

Ahh FFS stop trying to drag this off about gender or sex.

All us males/men have mothers, some have daughters and sisters.
I would say the vast vast majority of men are disgusted and indeed worried that the women in their lives could be subject of this.

I don't care who it was, what sex, race or creed, that made the decision not to inform women that there were problems with the Cervical Screening testing, I think they should be made criminally liable for their inaction that has resulted in unnecessary deaths and pain due to delayed misdiagnosis.

Our health service like a lot of our other national services are a fooking disgrace.

And as always you will get reports, investigative panels and experts, usually followed by some muppets trotting out the line that it is a systemic failure.

No, it is usually a failure of people, not a failure of some system.

Someone or ones made a decision not to inform women that the tests were incorrect and they were at risk of cervical cancer.
And someone or ones made the decision in the first place to go with a lesser test in the US which is more suitable to a shorter testing interval.

It is much like the preceding scandal where some fooking incompetent ar**hole(s) in HSE/Tusla decided that some poor kids had to live with a rapist, even though one poor child had made allegations of rape.

I know some will not like my language, some will see this as a rant and I don't care, but this country is pathetic and we as a people are pathetic that we accept people being continously sacrificed by unfit for institutions and criminally incapable publicly funded staff.

After every one of these scandals there is a public wailing in the media, some mealy mouthed political and public service statements and speeches with assurances that things will be different in the future.

And yet we will be back here again with yet another scandal as sure as Tony O'Brien is jumping a septic ship with a nice little parachute.

If it was just a scandal involving misuse of funds, but no it is scandal involving peoples lives, be it their unnecessary death or the fact they have been consigned to a life of misery and pain.

_Dara_

Amirani wrote: »

There's always economics involved with these things. It's entirely probably that screenings every 6 months would be better still, but you have to set the limit somewhere. You can be sure that much thought was given to setting 3 years as a reasonable timeframe.

More frequent screening is not necessarily a good thing. Many screening methods for different cancers carry their own significant risks such as exposure to radiation.

[Deleted User]

jmayo wrote: »

Looking at the time of your posts I am just hoping that your posted this e after being out on the booze and you are not quite as big an assh*le when sober.

Somebody is very much to blame that women such as the very brave Vichy Phelan were not informed very much earlier that their smear tests were incorrect.
That is criminal negligence in my book.

This is our national health service.

This needs to be discussed and people need to shout about this from the rooftops, not bury it as the state and HSE tried to do with a gagging order on one of their victims.

Are you seriously saying this should be "fixed" by the very organisation that has created the mess and the coverup in the first place.

FFS you really must be totally blind drunk if you actually think that the HSE can be relied upon to internally fix itself.

Ahh FFS stop trying to drag this off about gender or sex.

All us males/men have mothers, some have daughters and sisters.
I would say the vast vast majority of men are disgusted and indeed worried that the women in their lives could be subject of this.

I don't care who it was, what sex, race or creed, that made the decision not to inform women that there were problems with the Cervical Screening testing, I think they should be made criminally liable for their inaction that has resulted in unnecessary deaths and pain due to delayed misdiagnosis.

Our health service like a lot of our other national services are a fooking disgrace.

And as always you will get reports, investigative panels and experts, usually followed by some muppets trotting out the line that it is a systemic failure.

No, it is usually a failure of people, not a failure of some system.

Someone or ones made a decision not to inform women that the tests were incorrect and they were at risk of cervical cancer.
And someone or ones made the decision in the first place to go with a lesser test in the US which is more suitable to a shorter testing interval.

It is much like the preceding scandal where some fooking incompetent ar**hole(s) in HSE/Tusla decided that some poor kids had to live with a rapist, even though one poor child had made allegations of rape.

I know some will not like my language, some will see this as a rant and I don't care, but this country is pathetic and we as a people are pathetic that we accept people being continously sacrificed by unfit for institutions and criminally incapable publicly funded staff.

After every one of these scandals there is a public wailing in the media, some mealy mouthed political and public service statements and speeches with assurances that things will be different in the future.

And yet we will be back here again with yet another scandal as sure as Tony O'Brien is jumping a septic ship with a nice little parachute.

If it was just a scandal involving misuse of funds, but no it is scandal involving peoples lives, be it their unnecessary death or the fact they have been consigned to a life of misery and pain.

No rant there' it;s a good post, very good, I agree, and think women of ireland should march about it. i tell ya it affects more women than that bleeding belfast rape trial did ffs..priorities I ask ya!!!, were's all the hashtag SJW patriots now when it matters???? this affects wives, mothers, daughters and by extensions sons, husbands and fathers!!!

Ipso

_Dara_ wrote: »

More frequent screening is not necessarily a good thing. Many screening methods for different cancers carry their own significant risks such as exposure to radiation.

Isn't there also a risk of false positive results?

gctest50

More manslaughter :

She came in and she said ‘look you’ve been through a lot, go see a psychologist’, but she (Nicola) said ‘I’m not crazy, I know my body more than anybody’. She was very tenacious, she wouldn’t leave that room until she got what she wanted and she said ‘I’ll go see a psychologist if you bring me in to have a look’.

“She wanted to be checked out, get a scan. They brought her in to have a look around and they saw that the cancer had spread to her ovaries, her stomach and her lymph nodes.”

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/husband-who-lost-wife-to-cervical-cancer-says-consultant-told-her-to-join-a-gym-840542.html

joe40

There may have been many issues with the screening process but the best screening system will still produce false positives.
It is not true to say that the doctors knew she had cancer and decided not to do anything.
She already had the cancer diagnosis and was undergoing treatment when the issue with the initial screening test was discovered. She should have been told though
Obviously if the effectiveness of the screening can be improved it should, and if the management of the system was substandard there should be accountability.
It is not doctors however deliberately letting someone with cancer go untreated

pitifulgod

joe40 wrote: »

There may have been many issues with the screening process but the best screening system will still produce false positives.
It is not true to say that the doctors knew she had cancer and decided not to do anything.
She already had the cancer diagnosis and was undergoing treatment when the issue with the initial screening test was discovered. She should have been told though
Obviously if the effectiveness of the screening can be improved it should, and if the management of the system was substandard there should be accountability.
It is not doctors however deliberately letting someone with cancer go untreated

The most substantial issue was that the US company were more prone to errors. However screenings are expected 12 months in the US scenario so that negated the errors. Ireland was doing it every 3 years, as a result, the error issue became a far more substantial issue. If it was annual, it would have negated the error rate.

McCrack

joe40 wrote: »

There may have been many issues with the screening process but the best screening system will still produce false positives.
It is not true to say that the doctors knew she had cancer and decided not to do anything.
She already had the cancer diagnosis and was undergoing treatment when the issue with the initial screening test was discovered. She should have been told though
Obviously if the effectiveness of the screening can be improved it should, and if the management of the system was substandard there should be accountability.
It is not doctors however deliberately letting someone with cancer go untreated

I think youre forgetting one critical point

If her smear was read correctly in 2011 she would have commenced treatment and had an excellent prognosis

Instead her life expectancy is months because her treatment was delayed

Anita Blow

LirW wrote: »

The problem is that the program was cut so instead of an annual screening you'd only get it every 3 years. You can treat abnormal cells easily once they're found by a simple treatment and chances are high you'll never have problems after it. But the best effect comes with annual screening.
There was talks of increasing the interval to 5 years just a few months ago.

Just on this point- annual screening carries no greater benefit. 3-year screening interval is best practice according to the IARC and is standard in most countries.
It's only annual in some parts of the US (despite the US Preventative Taskforce itself recommending a 3-year interval) because there is a perverse financial incentive to screen more often there.
The talk of increasing to 5 years actually began in Australia as rates of Cervical Cancer have dropped dramatically since introduction of the HPV vaccine and now we're moving towards checking HPV status followed by 5-year screens as cervical cancer is quite rare in someone without HPV.

[Deleted User]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

ffs...what a week..

Try_harder

https://twitter.com/mrjustinmac/status/991750203983257602?s=21

Got to love the leading from the front from the HSE

iamwhoiam

I am trying to piece the timeline together . Did someone know that Vicky Phelan had an abnormal smear test result and not inform her of that for a period of time ? Or was her abnormal smear test not diagnosed ?

gctest50

Mr Harris repeated the State would pay the fees involved for any woman who wants a repeat smear test, and whose GP agrees that she needs one, as part of the reassurance process.

He said this guidance will be issued to GPs tomorrow and, once this is done, the information will be published on the website cervicalcheck.ie.

.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0502/959759-cervicalcheck-reax/

LirW

Anita Blow wrote: »

Just on this point- annual screening carries no greater benefit. 3-year screening interval is best practice according to the IARC and is standard in most countries.
It's only annual in some parts of the US (despite the US Preventative Taskforce itself recommending a 3-year interval) because there is a perverse financial incentive to screen more often there.
The talk of increasing to 5 years actually began in Australia as rates of Cervical Cancer have dropped dramatically since introduction of the HPV vaccine and now we're moving towards checking HPV status followed by 5-year screens as cervical cancer is quite rare in someone without HPV.

Austria and Germany do annual screenings at the annual gyn visit every woman should do once they start their menstruation. Their cervical cancer rate is lower than Ireland's. There are a few other EU countries that do annual testing at gynecology doctors.

Anita Blow

LirW wrote: »

Austria and Germany do annual screenings at the annual gyn visit every woman should do once they start their menstruation. Their cervical cancer rate is lower than Ireland's. There are a few other EU countries that do annual testing at gynecology doctors.

They would be exceptions. You can read the IARC guidelines here which also show that just 3 EU countries operate an annual screening programme. The majority operate on a 3-5 year basis.

joe40

I may be well out of line here asking this question but if there was a annual system of screening would the uptake go down, so there may be even more early stage abnormal cells missed.
This story is rightly getting a lot of attention, but then there was a reduction in uptake of HPV vaccine which would be even more beneficial than screening if widely accepted.

AlekSmart

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Agreed. A process with only one check of a smear rather than the two check which is traditionally done here for cancer diagnoses was destined to run into trouble.

Yesterdays (Tuesday) RTE 1 Drivetime had some rather revealing interviews with eminent Medical Proffessionals,which revealed that Outsourcing was heavily endorsed by then Minister for Health,Ms Harney,who was reported as favouring a more widespread introduction of Outsourcing across the HSE.

Following on from the Outsourcing,some 70 qualified and experienced personnel attached to the Irish Cystology system were surplus to requirements and left the field and,in some cases,the Country.

Now,of course,the HSE find Ireland has no longer the ability to carry out these tests,due to a lack of qualified people.....:mad:

One interesting stat from the interview,was how each Outsourced sample would only recieve 4 minutes of examination from the Cystology technician in the U.S.A.

The HSE's main concern in it's contract was Speed of Response,presumably to provide a veneer of efficiency,which we now know was totally absent.

There is no way that the HSE's CEO should be allowed to Walk away on Pension,from this issue,if necessary,some legal means must be crafted to force him to remain in position until this scandal is fully exlpained and the ramifications of such a wayward fixation with "Outsourcing" are fully admitted to,and acted upon.

This is all about MONEY,and lots of it,with perhaps only Roisin Shorthall having managed to get an inkling of the depth of the scandal.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/chairman-of-us-pharmaceutical-firm-that-put-embattled-hse-boss-on-its-board-hosted-fundraiser-for-varadkar-36866749.html

The chairman of a US firm - which has added the embattled HSE boss, Tony O’Brien, to its board - has hosted a fundraising function for the Taoiseach.

Leo Varadkar defended the Health Minister Simon Harris giving permission to Tony O’Brien to take a board seat on the US pharmaceutical firm, Evofem Biosciences, while Mr O’Brien continues to head the HSE.

And replying to Dáil questions from Roisín Shortall of the Social Democrats, the Taoiseach said it was a matter of public record that the chairman of that US firm,Thomas Lynch, had last year hosted a fundraising event for Mr Varadkar.

Mr Lynch is also chairman of the Ireland East Hospital Group and the Mater Hospital in Dublin as well as chairing the US pharmaceutical firm based in San Diego.

One wonders if Mr O'Brien will be "retiring" from Evofem Biosciences as fast as he will be exiting the HSE ?

The entire thing stinks,but this time we have proof,that people were complaining of the smell right from the beginning,and had the credibility and bravery to resign over the issue...will these people be brought back and given recognition in their own lifetime ?

Enochwasright

mazwell wrote: »

I had my first smear test at 25 in England, abnormal cells, follow up and then treatment. I'm immensely thankful for the care I got. I moved home then and got my 3 year test here, all clear, happy out and am due my next in 2019.
After hearing the scandal, and it is a scandal, I'm going to pay privately for an earlier test. Because I and thousands of women just like me are terrified that we have a possibility of being the people who were given false negatives. Therefore potentially shortening our lifespan, making us go through chemo, reducing our quality of life.
If you honestly think that the scandal is that the government might have to pay compensation then I really do think you'd want to have a talk to a professional who teaches cop yourself on lessons

Fair play sister, cannot see how anyone would have any problem with any woman on this island having a reassurance test free of charge at their earliest convenience and any woman who has been dealt a bad hand being compensated to the maximum possible by the state to the highest amount cash, though limited, can help.

Annabella1

If you look at the hard facts...(to date)
3million smears since 2008 few hundred errors
No medical screening is 100%
Big problem is the non disclosure of abnormalities to patients by management
Will this change the culture in the HSE ??

Wanderer78

Annabella1 wrote:

If you look at the hard facts...(to date) 3million smears since 2008 few hundred errors No medical screening is 100% Big problem is the non disclosure of abnormalities to patients by management Will this change the culture in the HSE ??

More than likely not, deep systematic changes needed there but we wouldn't be into such things

_Dara_

Ipso wrote: »

Isn't there also a risk of false positive results?

Yes, absolutely. Over diagnosis is an issue with breast cancer screening. Which also skews the survival stats.

marzic

http://stateclaims.ie/ezine/meet-the-sca-director-ciaran-breen/

Now here's a public servant who takes his job seriously... shame it involves dragging dying women through the Courts