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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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antoinolachtnai

GM228 wrote: »

For clarity 24.5F states:-

You do realise that "income" is not just revenue right?

The profit and loss account deals with revenue, the grant is a Capital Grant - a gain and accounted for in the cash flow statement (only Revenue Grants go into the profit and loss account as revenue), the grant is then written off over the lifetime of the bus by reducing the revenue via the depreciation and amortisation part of the profit and loss account.

The grants are clearly shown in the financial statements and comply with the provisions of the standards, they are not hidden away cleverly disguised as something else, do you honestly think companies who receive Capital Grants are not reporting the way they should be?

The reports even mention the grants are written off to the profit and loss account.

A few posts ago you were telling us about an accounting innovation, unknown as far as I can tell to any accounting standards body in the world, under which income could be recognized on the balance sheet just as well as on the P+L.

Now you are giving a lecture on accounting standards.

It would be nice to know whether you consider the income of DB to have been €296m or €318m in 2016. In the light of what you have written above it seems like you think the income is €318m but I really am not sure what you think.

GM228

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

A few posts ago you were telling us about an accounting innovation, unknown as far as I can tell to any accounting standards body in the world, under which income could be recognized on the balance sheet just as well as on the P+L.

Now you are giving a lecture on accounting standards.

I think that's at least twice you have dropped "deferred" from what I said, I said that "deferred income" is recognised on the balance sheet, not that "income" is recognised on the balance sheet. There's a difference between the two (as you well know).

See post #939 for example:-

GM228 wrote: »

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

DB never recognize capital grants as revenue in the P+L account. (DB treats them as a negative cost item which is not the same as recognizing them as revenue.)

I never said they recognise them as revenue, they are recognised on the balance sheet as deferred income in accordance with accounting standards. This is pretty standard and not at all unusual.

And post #942:-

GM228 wrote: »

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Sure you did, you said ‘for Capital based grants the grant will be recognised in the profit and loss account over the life of the asset to which it relates (i.e. matched with the relevant depreciation charges) which could be upto 14 years for PSO buses.’

But this is not the case. DB accounts don’t ever recognize the capital grant on the P+L.

Re-read what I said. You said "the grant for buses is never recognized as revenue on the P+L", to which I stated "this is actually pretty standard and in accordance with accounting guidelines".

What I then said was a capital grant will be recognised "in the profit and loss account over the life of the asset to which it relates (i.e. matched with the relevant depreciation charges)", not that it will be recognised as "revenue" in the profit and loss, this is covered under the depreciation and amortisation section of the profit and loss account, they are amortised to the profit and loss account on the same basis that the buses are depreciated. The actual grant received is not recognised as revenue, but as deferred income on the balance sheet.

Edit: On re-reading my own post now I see where you may be coming from from that post, I said actual grant received! Typo (or bad choice of words perhaps) I didn't cop until now, my bad, is this what is causing the confusion?

To clarify:-
Capital Grant - deferred income on balance sheet.

Capital Grant received - income on the cash flow sheet as I stated already (but not revenue on the profit and loss sheet - that would only apply to a Revenue Grant).

Capital Grant only makes it onto profit and loss sheet when they write off the grant incrementally over several years based on vehicle depreciation.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It would be nice to know whether you consider the income of DB to have been €296m or €318m in 2016. In the light of what you have written above it seems like you think the income is €318m but I really am not sure what you think.

It's neither figure, in 2016 DB had an "income" of €310.908M (made up of €295.893M in revenues and €15.015M capital grants received).

antoinolachtnai

It's neither figure, in 2016 DB had an "income" of €310.908M (made up of €295.893M in revenues and €15.015M capital grants received).

I do agree it would make sense to add the capital grant to the PSO grant to work out the total cash amount the government actually paid to DB in 2016 in relation to operating the PSO services. This is really the important point - the grant for the PSO is really €75m in 2016 (and around €95m in 2015 which was well over 30 percent of the total PSO income that year).

However, you are now adding a cash item to an accrual item to calculate an accrual item. This does not make a lot of sense.

I don't see how continuing this discussion can be fruitful. We lack a shared frame of reference if we can't agree on the importance of the distinction between cash items and accrual items and between 'recognised' and 'accounted for'. I am glad we got the difference between us down to under 8 million euros however!

dublinman1990

I heard some good news about the software to be used for the timetables for Go-Ahead's routes in the Dublin Metropolitan Area. This was announced a few days ago but GAD are going to use their current software called OmniBus which is used for timetabling and scheduling of their buses, running boards, duties and for imported/exported data from the NTA. They are currently using this software in their operations all over the UK. This software is also used for bus services based in Auckland, New Zealand. A small number of bus operators in London use this software for their services very successfully.

The four packages being used by GAD are OmniTIMES, OmniBASE, OmniROTA & OmniMAP.

According to Ed Wills; the new software will be installed from next month.

https://omnibus.solutions/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/OmniNEWS-MAR-2018.pdf

L1011

IVU microbus being what DB currently use. Unless there's supervisory staff leaving to join GA it should have no impact and even then retraining isn't hard.

dashcamdanny

I believe the Go Ahead drivers will be responsible for keeping the bus clean. Maybe even washing it.

Currently the people of Dublin use the bus as a rubbish bin . Taking fast food, beer, soft drinks, coffee, bar wrappers onto the bus to consume while they are travelling. Who cares? I dont. I dont have to clean it. Keeps a whole team of guys in work.

But If I did have to clean it, the first person to even try and get on with a can of coke or a lunch box will be refused at the door.

Looking forward to watching the GoAhead twitter rants on this.

punisher5112

Not the only crap left, nappies, tissues, pads from women, makeup pads, chewing gum anywhere, snot, spit, piss, actual sh1t, vomit.... Many many things even ones household rubbish, emptying their hand bags, old papers, magazines, nail clippings.

I really can't get how some people actually live day to day.

[Deleted User]

Along with other items like knives , syringes , drugs

How the hell can you stop someone getting onto a bus with food or drink ? When the people just walk past and ignore you

When they hide it all anyway

I've had people sneak dogs onto buses in back packs without me noticing.

It's a different world to what goes on inside the cab and outside the cab. We don't even see half of it

It's amazing with both Dublin bus and bus Eireann

Doesn't seem to matter where or when

You get a freshly cleaned and fuelled bus and it's spotless inside and out

By the time you finish the first trip it's as if a bomb went off. People don't give a fu,ck at all.

punisher5112

Very easy if they take zero tolerance approach and actually have checkers out working and actually enforcing rules and fare dodgers.

Stephen15

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I believe the Go Ahead drivers will be responsible for keeping the bus clean. Maybe even washing it.

Currently the people of Dublin use the bus as a rubbish bin . Taking fast food, beer, soft drinks, coffee, bar wrappers onto the bus to consume while they are travelling. Who cares? I dont. I dont have to clean it. Keeps a whole team of guys in work.

But If I did have to clean it, the first person to even try and get on with a can of coke or a lunch box will be refused at the door.

Looking forward to watching the GoAhead twitter rants on this.

I doubt they will required to do that. I don't think GA London drivers are required to clean their buses so I don't see why it would be any different for GA Dublin drivers.

On another point I do think a bin should be on board Dublin Buses then maybe less people will treat it as a dump at least some will use anyway. I'm glad those free newspapers have been done away now nothing but rubbish creators on buses. There should also be bins attached to bus stop poles.

Can I ask where you got that info from?

schemingbohemia

Overheard an Aircoach driver talking to a colleague about the number of Aircoach drivers moving to Go Ahead, seemed to think there were a good few going. He had no interest himself.

dashcamdanny

Stephen15 wrote: »

I doubt they will required to do that. I don't think GA London drivers are required to clean their buses so I don't see why it would be any different for GA Dublin drivers.

On another point I do think a bin should be on board Dublin Buses then maybe less people will treat it as a dump at least some will use anyway. I'm glad those free newspapers have been done away now nothing but rubbish creators on buses. There should also be bins attached to bus stop poles.

Can I ask where you got that info from?

I asked go ahead for details on the the position. This is the job description.

Key Responsibilities and tasks

• Being professional and building trust with our customers
• Assisting customers whenever required, including those with disabilities
• Working to a varied schedule of driving duties, including early starts and late finishes, as well as weekend and public holiday working
• Carrying out a daily check of your vehicle and its equipment ensuring it is in working order
• Reporting immediately any faulty equipment or vehicle faults in accordance with company policies and procedures
• Ensuring the vehicle is clean and presentable, and to the company’s required standard
• Providing advice as required about routes, ticketing and timetables
• Assisting in the gathering of statistical information by the completion of daily records i.e. vehicle, customer and driver records
• Handling cash in line with company procedures (where required)
• Referring customer complaints and anomalies about the service to your immediate supervisor
• Ensuring you hold the necessary licences and approvals to drive a vehicle at all times during your employment, including but not limited to a driving licence, Driver CPC and digital tachograph card (if required)
• Regularly checking and ensuring compliance with any driving hours regulations
• Reporting any medical conditions or substance misuse and/or dependence, which might affect the ability to drive safely immediately to the company once employee is aware.

Stephen15

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I asked go ahead for details on the the position. This is the job description.

Key Responsibilities and tasks

• Being professional and building trust with our customers
• Assisting customers whenever required, including those with disabilities
• Working to a varied schedule of driving duties, including early starts and late finishes, as well as weekend and public holiday working
• Carrying out a daily check of your vehicle and its equipment ensuring it is in working order
• Reporting immediately any faulty equipment or vehicle faults in accordance with company policies and procedures
• Ensuring the vehicle is clean and presentable, and to the company’s required standard
• Providing advice as required about routes, ticketing and timetables
• Assisting in the gathering of statistical information by the completion of daily records i.e. vehicle, customer and driver records
• Handling cash in line with company procedures (where required)
• Referring customer complaints and anomalies about the service to your immediate supervisor
• Ensuring you hold the necessary licences and approvals to drive a vehicle at all times during your employment, including but not limited to a driving licence, Driver CPC and digital tachograph card (if required)
• Regularly checking and ensuring compliance with any driving hours regulations
• Reporting any medical conditions or substance misuse and/or dependence, which might affect the ability to drive safely immediately to the company once employee is aware.

That could just mean doing walk around checks to ensure the bus is fit for passenger service ie no one got sick, no one left syringes, no broken glass, no seats have slashed and no offensive graffiti has been drawn. If so then bus is returned to the depot where the bus is cleaned or the damage repaired. If they are required to clean it would probably be just removing and binning any coffee cups, newspapers, bottles or cans left behind rather than cleaning up spillages and hoovering up crumbs.

MGWR

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I asked Go Ahead for details on the the position. This is the job description.

Key Responsibilities and tasks
Being professional and building trust with our customers

Assisting customers whenever required, including those with disabilities

Working to a varied schedule of driving duties, including early starts and late finishes, as well as weekend and public holiday working

Carrying out a daily check of your vehicle and its equipment ensuring it is in working order

Reporting immediately any faulty equipment or vehicle faults in accordance with company policies and procedures

Ensuring the vehicle is clean and presentable, and to the company’s required standard

Providing advice as required about routes, ticketing and timetables

Assisting in the gathering of statistical information by the completion of daily records i.e. vehicle, customer and driver records

Handling cash in line with company procedures (where required)

Referring customer complaints and anomalies about the service to your immediate supervisor

Ensuring you hold the necessary licences and approvals to drive a vehicle at all times during your employment, including but not limited to a driving licence, Driver CPC and digital tachograph card (if required)

Regularly checking and ensuring compliance with any driving hours regulations

Reporting any medical conditions or substance misuse and/or dependence, which might affect the ability to drive safely, immediately to the company once employee is aware.

Any description of what "the company's required standard" of cleanliness and presentability is? And the driver really has to pick up rubbish and "hoover" the vehicle?

xper

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I asked go ahead for details on the the position. This is the job description.

Key Responsibilities and tasks

• Being professional and building trust with our customers
• Assisting customers whenever required, including those with disabilities
• Working to a varied schedule of driving duties, including early starts and late finishes, as well as weekend and public holiday working
• Carrying out a daily check of your vehicle and its equipment ensuring it is in working order
• Reporting immediately any faulty equipment or vehicle faults in accordance with company policies and procedures
• Ensuring the vehicle is clean and presentable, and to the company’s required standard
• Providing advice as required about routes, ticketing and timetables
• Assisting in the gathering of statistical information by the completion of daily records i.e. vehicle, customer and driver records
• Handling cash in line with company procedures (where required)
• Referring customer complaints and anomalies about the service to your immediate supervisor
• Ensuring you hold the necessary licences and approvals to drive a vehicle at all times during your employment, including but not limited to a driving licence, Driver CPC and digital tachograph card (if required)
• Regularly checking and ensuring compliance with any driving hours regulations
• Reporting any medical conditions or substance misuse and/or dependence, which might affect the ability to drive safely immediately to the company once employee is aware.

"Ensure" is suitably vague as is typical for a job description, it could mean anything from requesting cleaning to picking up loose rubbish to actually 'rolling up sleeves'. It also says drivers will ensure the equipment works - are you expecting they will be taking over the engineer roles too?

I'm amused that driving a bus is only the third bullet point and obliquely mentioned at that.

dashcamdanny

xper wrote: »

"Ensure" is suitably vague as is typical for a job description, it could mean anything from requesting cleaning to picking up loose rubbish to actually 'rolling up sleeves'. It also says drivers will ensure the equipment works - are you expecting they will be taking over the engineer roles too?

I'm amused that driving a bus is only the third bullet point and obliquely mentioned at that.

Maybe, many coach drivers would be expected to do the same thing though. As well as refuel.

I guess we will see. Here is the rest of the job description.

• Immediately notifying your supervisor of any changes which may affect the validity of your
driving licence and work in conjunction with the Company to ensure relevant driving
legislation is being followed at all times
• Reporting immediately all traffic incidents, or any incidents affecting customers and
completing all relevant procedures within 24 hours
• Undertaking all necessary training and development to help maintain and develop skills to
assist and support our customers and company objectives.
• Undertaking any other duties and responsibilities of a similar nature as requested
Knowledge and Skills
Requirements:
• Minimum driving age of 21 to comply with regulations
• Full car license held for a minimum of two years and with no more than six penalty points
• No pending motoring offences at the time of application
• Reasonable numeracy and literacy skills
• Smart appearance
Competencies, desirable traits or attributes:
• Excellent communication skills
• Customer care experience
• Flexible approach to duties
Key Safety Responsibilities:
To act in a manner as to ensure the health, safety, welfare, environment and fire safety of yourself
and others in the organisation as well as any clients and visitors.
Ensure that you and any visitors to any company premises understand emergency and evacuation
arrangements.
Ensure your working environment

Thank you for expressing an interest in working for Go-Ahead Dublin.

We will be commencing operation of bus services in the last quarter of 2018 and are therefore pleased to announce that the recruitment process for bus drivers is now underway.

We are accepting applications from both existing D licence holders, and non category D licence holders. If you feel this is the next step in your career and you don't hold the required D licence, we will offer you a fantastic industry leading training programme, in order for you to become a fully qualified Go-Ahead Dublin bus driver.

Our initial recruitment phase will start from as early as April, but with the majority of start dates planned for June, July and August, however we would encourage people to get their applications in early given the high level of interest received.

Therefore we plan to hold various recruitment events during April, May and June and if you are successful in securing employment we will provide you with a confirmed start date (please note if you don’t already hold a category D bus driving licence we can only confirm your start date once you have received your learner’s permit).

If you have any pre-planned holiday please let us know at the time of your application so we can ensure your training is not disrupted.

Attached with this email is an electronic copy of our application form as well as an information sheet we would ask you to read before submitting your application and a job description about the role. If you would like a paper copy of the documents please email us at drivers@go-aheaddublin.ie providing your postal address and we will send you the application pack.

If you have any questions please give us a call on 0838920566 or email us at drivers@go-aheaddublin.ie

We look forward to hearing from you soon.

The Recruitment Team | Go-Ahead Dublin

pclive

Does anyone know if the drivers will be required to operate the rear doors at all stops? and will exiting passengers be told to use them?

punisher5112

pclive wrote: »

Does anyone know if the drivers will be required to operate the rear doors at all stops? and will exiting passengers be told to use them?

If it's not safe it's always up to drivers discretion.

They will of course be trained in how to and to avail of it where possible.

AlekSmart

pclive wrote: »

Does anyone know if the drivers will be required to operate the rear doors at all stops? and will exiting passengers be told to use them?

As it currently stands,there is NO requirement on passengers to exit by a specific door.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Boarding-and-Alighting/

8. Where notices are exhibited on a vehicle indicating that a door shall be used for entrance and another door for exit (except in the case of an accident or other emergency or with the consent of an authorised person) a person shall not board or attempt to board the vehicle by the door indicated for exit or alight from or attempt to alight from the vehicle by the door indicated for entrance.

The NTA do currently have a draft set of Bye-Laws,which remain largely the same as the current BAC ones,so it is entirely up to the NTA to affix the relevant "Notices" on the vehicles to meet your requirements.

I would suggest that the Authority should pay somewhat more attention to the current Capacity issues,and retreat somewhat from the Dual-Door use solves all problems approach.

Sort out the dwell-time issue,and single door use ceases to be of such importance.

dfx-

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would suggest that the Authority should pay somewhat more attention to the current Capacity issues,and retreat somewhat from the Dual-Door use solves all problems approach.

Sort out the dwell-time issue,and single door use ceases to be of such importance.

Sort out the obsession with 'efficiency' and you solve both dwell time and single door use and capacity issues.

Contrails

Just a thought back to wages...

If I recall correctly from DB's last advert, wages inclusive of shift allowance were up to just under the 40k mark per annum. GA are advertising salaries up to 32k plus overtime. Now I know there's been some debate as to what is and isn't included in GA's salary, but to me that's all in. They seem to be really trying to sell the position on their website and 3rd party sites so I'd say it's highly likely it includes the usual shift premiums. So not as competitive as DB, if that's the case.

My question around this regards pay parity. Luas drivers went on strike a while back, often citing issues with Irish rail and pay parity. If GA do have guys out on the road for 8k pa less than DB, surely within a few months they'd grind to a halt with strike action?

dublinman1990

I found a job application for a bus driver, either as a trainee or qualified, with Go-Ahead Dublin on jobsireland.ie. I have no interest to apply for the job. I just found it while looking for other jobs online through the website. The serial number for this position on jobsireland.ie is #JOB-2069980. I would suppose that if anyone was applying for the job through the details on this website with their CV; would it be standard practice for applicants to receive the application form back from Go-Ahead Dublin afterwards by sending back the form through their email?

dublinbuster

Contrails wrote: »

My question around this regards pay parity. Luas drivers went on strike a while back, often citing issues with Irish rail and pay parity. If GA do have guys out on the road for 8k pa less than DB, surely within a few months they'd grind to a halt with strike action?

DB drivers supposed to be getting a pay review soon, was part of last pay deal, bring them up to LUAS pay levels, what about Go Ahead pay?

Tickityboo

dublinbuster wrote: »

DB drivers supposed to be getting a pay review soon, was part of last pay deal, bring them up to LUAS pay levels, what about Go Ahead pay?

Don't think so!!

dublinbuster

Tickityboo wrote: »

Don't think so!!

its a coming

Jamie2k9

dublinbuster wrote: »

DB drivers supposed to be getting a pay review soon, was part of last pay deal, bring them up to LUAS pay levels, what about Go Ahead pay?

That part is not true, you should know if unions tried such a move Go Ahead and others will get a lot more than 10% of DB routes.

AlekSmart

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That part is not true, you should know if unions tried such a move Go Ahead and others will get a lot more than 10% of DB routes.

It's actually kinda true,as the 2015 agreement contained a committment from both parties to carry out a comparative exercise with reference to the then new Tram Drivers wage scale.

The Unions have not yet outlined whether this process has actually begun.

dublinbuster

i have zero reason to lie in my posts here, can other posters state the same?

Jamie2k9

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's actually kinda true,as the 2015 agreement contained a committment from both parties to carry out a comparative exercise with reference to the then new Tram Drivers wage scale.

The Unions have not yet outlined whether this process has actually begun.

Perhaps but I still can't see pay parity happening, NTA are not going to fund it when there are lots of other operators there willing to do it for a more reasonable cost.

GM228

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's actually kinda true,as the 2015 agreement contained a committment from both parties to carry out a comparative exercise with reference to the then new Tram Drivers wage scale.

The Unions have not yet outlined whether this process has actually begun.

The wage agreement was 2016, not 2015 and there was no reference to the Transdev pay scales, rather the unions and DB would meet mid 2018 to discuss a pay framework to take effect on the expiry of the agreement.

Perhaps you are getting mixed up with the LUAS deal where it was agreed to perform a benchmarking exercise with European tram drivers (which is yet to happen).