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Tubeless road - it actually works

brownian

I got my first puncture on my Schwalbe Pro One tubeless setup today. Naturally, it was freezing and raining.

I noticed the back wheel felt a bit soft, so I stopped and squeezed it. Sure enough, deffo losing/lost air. Rode on a bit, hoping it'd self-seal, like the theory says.

Five minutes later, had another squeeze. Seems stable. Whip out the pump, lash in some air, so it feels properly hard again (70 PSI? Hard to say in the rain etc., but certainly good to ride).

Four hours later (snow, slush, water, even the odd bit of tarmac), safely home. There is a nasty little cut in the tyre, but no air coming out at all.

While I'm at it - the tubeless do seem to be faster than my usual Conti GP4000sIIs. Certainly hitting a lot of strave PMs without obvious additional effort. The new tubeless wheels are 33mm rims (AL33s), and so a bit more aero, in theory than the 22mm climbing wheels I'd usually use (and also about 350g heavier). I can't see the rims making a big difference (happy to be corrected), so inclined to credit the tubeless.

Anyway, that's just for anyone considering going tubeless - all my experience (maybe 500km) to date is positive.

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cyfac

youtheman wrote: »

Sounds very interesting. Do you have a link by any chance?. I'd definitely purchase if they will make the job easier.

Apologies for the delay please see link for details

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/tubeless-bits-and-bobs/products/irc-tubeless-tyre-levers

harringtonp

There are a lot of tubeless web articles floating around which are a bit outdated now and perhaps not quite accurate. This one

http://www.wheelsuckers.co.uk/profiles/blogs/review-schwalbe-pro-one-tubeless-tyre

however is good. It covers a lot of aspects and is well worth reading by anyone interested in the subject.

Lemming

triggermortis wrote: »

I have tubeless on my MTB and never have any problem inflating new tyres. I use a track pump and keep the valve at the 12 o'clock position and press the tyre towards the rim with my hand thats not operating the pump. That forces the tyre to go towards the seating position on the rim. Usually the tyre stats popping (literally - it makes a popping noise) into place and I pump it until its fully inflated. Soapy water helps to seat the tyre and see any leaks.
Once it has been inflated for 5 minutes, I deflate it, remove the valve core and pour in the sealant (I use Stans) refit the core and re-inflate - keeping the tyre upright and the valve at 12 o'clock. Then I give it a good spin to move the sealant all around.
@ Eamonnator - If you're close to NCD, I'm working lates all week and so have every morning free if you want a second pair of hands to try and get them fitted. I've never tried road wheels, but it can't be impossible

Just to add a bit on top of what triggermortis has said above (and adding the disclaimer that I'm coming to this from an MTB point of view), if you're having a lot of difficulty getting a tyre to inflate/seat onto the rim, be mindful of the particular tyre model that you're trying to fit. I experienced this with a Schwable Nobbly Nic tyre, of which I hadn't realised was the super-light pacestar (or whatever it is) rubber compound version, which requires the inside of the tyre to be treated with an additional liquid/sealant to close up the holes in the rubber itself before you try seating/adding tubless sealant. Took an absolute age to seat, a visit to a shop to seat, and then still continued to deflate. I could see sealant bubbling through the carcass sidewalls all over the place like there was a thousand and one pinpricks. I reckon I used up about x3 the amount of sealant I needed to, and the whole thing dragged over several days until finally the tyre held pressure overnight. By contrast, I've fitted Maxxis High-Roller/High-Roller II/Minion DHF tyres on separate bikes and never once had an issue with seating, getting that lovely 'pop' sound on first attempt every time. I'm not trying to single out Schawble tyres; my point is that the tyre model/variant itself may require additional steps that aren't immediately obvious.

Two other points to note:

CO2 seating.

Tubeless sealant - from what I've read through various discussion boards on the matter - does not seem to like CO2 very well, in that the sealant is at risk of being dried out. How quickly I couldn't tell you but that seemed to be a common opinion held. For seating, a decent track-pump should see you right. Doesn't even need to be expensive. I use a Lidl track-pump. Or you can get track-pumps with compression chambers for high-volume air through-put. You can also get the cylinders separate from the pump if you already have a good pump; just fill up the compression cylinder with the pump, connect pump to tyre valve, and away you go.

Valve stems & sealant top-up

If you're fed up of the whole popping of the tyre off the bead to pour in more sealant and then repeat the whole re-seating of tyre whilst avoiding a mess, and you aren't prepared to use the (imo) crazy syringe-through-the-tyre method; I use Milkit valve stems. They're intended to use with a syringe/plunger setup but you insert (or remove) sealant by going through the valve stems themselves. The stems have rubber inserts that prevent air escaping whilst the valve cores are removed, allowing you to seat the tyre with no sealant present, then fill with required amount of sealant via the plunger/syringe, insert valve core/inflate/job done.

brownian

So, I'm a bit less gung-ho about my tubeless system today. I decided I should at least get some hands-on experiencing of changing a tubeless, in a controlled environment, before I had to do it in anger on a hill in the rain.

Taking Schwalbe Pro Ones ('easy tubeless') off my AL33 rims was a piece of cake. Used the three blue plastic Schwalbe levers that came with the wheels (tyres pre-fitted) from wheeltec. A bit of sealant on the floor, but nothing serious.

Getting the tyres back onto the rim (or, at least, past the edge of the rim) - no hassle.

Getting them to inflate - IMPOSSIBLE. The little lips on the tyres are meant to fit into the grooves on the inside of the rims...but nobody told the tyres that. The more you pump, the more air just comes out. Tried the soapy water. Now there's sealant and suds and sweat, but nothing more. Look it all up on youtube- looks handy. Great. Use a tube to seat the tyre. That works great, until you have to half-remove the tyre to get the tube out...then you try to inflate - not a hope.

So...am off to a garage to try their compressor, as soon as my valve adaptor arrives. I only have a normal track pump; maybe I should get an AirBlaster or whatever they're called.

I guess that actually removing the tyre is a once-in-a-blue-moon event anyway...I hope so, otherwise I'll be running tubed tube-less a lot of the time 8-).

harringtonp

I had that problem too with Pro Ones but had to send a wheel back to the wheelbuilder for repair anyway so used the opportunity to send both back with tyres and got him to fit them.

Having to fit new tyres to the carbon rims has not come around yet but I since bought an Airblast pump and found it easy using it to fit a Schwalbe Pro One to a Velocity A23 rim.

The Pro One is a supple tyre which is why it is so good performance wise but for the same reason may be harder to fit on some rims. The impression I get is that ease of fit comes down to the tyre/rim combo and every combination is different.

As regards usage I am beginning to have real confidence in the system. Air pressure holds really well and after a week almost nothing is lost. I have used them in 6 races so far this year, 3 of them were Gorey where road conditions were horrible on the last day (really heavy rain) and there were a few punctures. I've also hit some decent holes as you sometimes do it races and I'm pretty sure the old setup would have punctured on some of these but the tubeless has stood up well. Also In recent races for the first time I've had the confidence not to carry a pump, levers and spare tube.

Perciville

Fitted the Schwalbe Pro Ones to Giant SLR 1 Disc wheels over the weekend. The front one was a real struggle to get on, but seated and inflated with the regular track pump without issue. The rear tyre went on much easier funnily enough (is the rear wheel slightly smaller?), but wouldn't seat/inflate with the track pump so had to use a CO2 cannister.

The Gavia SL tyres that were on previously were a serious struggle to unseat and remove. They're obviously a perfect fit for the SLR wheelset, and had become welded to the wheels. They only had around 1000km on them but were cutting up badly and I was getting sprayed with sealant more often than I'd like lately, so was time to change. Hopefully the Pro Ones will be a little harder wearing. Having said that, I haven't had to get off the bike for any puncture in those 1000k with the Gavia set, so I'm definitely impressed with the tubeless setup.

CrowdedHouse

Anyone try the new Mavic road UST set up yet? Was thinking about Ksryium elite UST

Brian

cyfac wrote: »

Apologies for the delay please see link for details

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/tubeless-bits-and-bobs/products/irc-tubeless-tyre-levers

Be careful using these levers. The pointy end for mounting the tyres can damage your rim tape which will leave you wondering why the blasted things won't seat and seal. I've talked to Malcolm @ the Cycle Clinic about this and he recommends using the flat end for both mounting and removal.

Perciville wrote: »

Fitted the Schwalbe Pro Ones to Giant SLR 1 Disc wheels over the weekend. The front one was a real struggle to get on, but seated and inflated with the regular track pump without issue. The rear tyre went on much easier funnily enough (is the rear wheel slightly smaller?), but wouldn't seat/inflate with the track pump so had to use a CO2 cannister..

If the tyre goes on easily but won't seat, you should consider putting an extra layer of rim tape on. I've used Gorilla Tape (available in Aldi) cut to width with some success. The bead has to be very snug to the bed of the rim to get that initial inflation for seating.

brownian

Soooo.... I got a valve adaptor from Merlin (twice as much to post as to buy - maybe I should shop online less). On the way home from teh school run I stopped off in a garage with the older air compressors (the ones with the meter built into the handle). The adaptor is threaded, but the compressor not. None the less, in three seconds the tyre was fully seated, with some reassuring pops. No suds, no mess. Take it home, let the air out (gently), pour in some sealant, shake and rotate and flip...and done.

I hope (and expect) that removing and replacing a tubeless will be a rare event...but the extra kit to carry around on a multi-day tour is about 2 grams of adaptor. And of course the tube and levers for en-route getting sorted. For normal spins, just bring a tube...as covered elsewhere.

I did also order an airblast from CRC (on special for 60 euro)...I might send it back now, tho.

harringtonp

I wouldn't send the airblast back if I were you. As an ordinary pump too it is top notch. Solid and it has a great grip on a valve so none of this one arm pumping

MediaMan

Encouraged by the discussions on here and just for the sheer hell of it, I'm planning to go tubeless. I need to buy new wheels anyway and am going to get tubeless compatible / 2-way fit ones.

This is for road cycling. I do a lot of hills, no racing. Weight is important, aero less so. Good looks is a plus, so am looking at some of the coated braking surface models. I weigh ~75kg, so don't need anything special in terms of extra robustness.

Willing to spend up to 1000 euro and am currently looking at the following (sticking with Aluminum as I don't see any benefit to me in going carbon):

Fulcrum Zero Competizione: http://www.fulcrumwheels.com/en/wheels/road-bike-wheels/racing-zero-competizione

DT Swiss PR 1400 DICUT OXiC 21: https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/wheels-road/performance/pr-1400-dicut-oxic-21/pr-1400-dicut-oxic-21/

Campag Shamal Mille (or Ultra): https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Wheels/shamal_mille

HUNT Race Aero Wide: https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels/products/hunt-race-season-aero-wide-road-wheelset-1480g-31deep-24wide#pid=4
(These much cheaper than all the rest).

I know it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day, but am keen to know if anyone has any experience of using these wheels, especially running tubeless, and can share that here. Also if you have other suggestions - keen to hear those too!

Andy Magic

Just my experience, I got 600km out of my back tyre but it has a smallish hole in it now, I assume I hit glass or a small stone and the tyre now keeps deflating to 60psi, I do get a few hours out of it after using a track pump but that's it. I went to replace the tyre and it's €47 per tyre so I'm going to go back to tubes and GP4000's. I've seen far worse holes in my Vittoria's and gp4000's and I would happily just throw a new tune in for them to work fine.

harringtonp

Andy Magic wrote: »

Just my experience, I got 600km out of my back tyre but it has a smallish hole in it now, I assume I hit glass or a small stone and the tyre now keeps deflating to 60psi, I do get a few hours out of it after using a track pump but that's it. I went to replace the tyre and it's €47 per tyre so I'm going to go back to tubes and GP4000's. I've seen far worse holes in my Vittoria's and gp4000's and I would happily just throw a new tune in for them to work fine.

If the valve has a removable core did you try removing it and putting some more sealant in ?

And you can currently get two Schwalbe Pro One 23mm tyres from Mantel for 75.90 with free delivery to Ireland

Andy Magic

harringtonp wrote: »

If the valve has a removable core did you try removing it and putting some more sealant in ?

And you can currently get two Schwalbe Pro One 23mm tyres from Mantel for 75.90 with free delivery to Ireland

Any links to good tyre sealant? I might give this a go before changing back

Are any of these good?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/s?q=tyre+sealant&cat=direct

harringtonp

Andy Magic wrote: »

Any links to good tyre sealant? I might give this a go before changing back

Are any of these good?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/s?q=tyre+sealant&cat=direct

Afraid I can't advise. I bought 500ml Schwalbe Doc Blue just because its the same manufacturer as the tyre. Have topped up with it but haven't had any punctures that I'm aware of so cannot tell.

iwillhtfu

Andy Magic wrote: »

Any links to good tyre sealant? I might give this a go before changing back

Are any of these good?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/s?q=tyre+sealant&cat=direct

I've been using stans for a good while now on the MTB and never had an issue some folks aren't as happy with it. Apparently Orange seal is very good I've not tried it myself.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Orange-Seal-Tubeless-Kit/dp/B01HI99344

MediaMan

MediaMan wrote: »

Fulcrum Zero Competizione: http://www.fulcrumwheels.com/en/wheels/road-bike-wheels/racing-zero-competizione

DT Swiss PR 1400 DICUT OXiC 21: https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/wheels-road/performance/pr-1400-dicut-oxic-21/pr-1400-dicut-oxic-21/

Campag Shamal Mille (or Ultra): https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Wheels/shamal_mille

HUNT Race Aero Wide: https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels/products/hunt-race-season-aero-wide-road-wheelset-1480g-31deep-24wide#pid=4
(These much cheaper than all the rest).

An update on my deliberations and some observations...
The Shamal Mille are not available in 2-way fit (despite some articles that say they are), only the Ultra (https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Wheels/wheel_shamal_ultra). Also, more generally, Campag/Fulcrum seem to have moved away from 2-way fit for regular road wheels, except for the a few at the top end, although they are retaining it for Disc/CX type wheels.

Mavic on the other hand are going all-in this year with their UST system. I'm looking at the Mavic Kysrium Pro UST: https://shop.mavic.com/en-int/ksyrium-pro-ust-rr0928.html#1028=3283
I'm very tempted by the fact that Mavic (according to their own publicity) have designed the UST system to tight tolerances so that the wheels and tyres match up well. There's a video of some guy putting the tyres on and off with his bare hands and just using a track pump to inflate, which seems in marked contrast to the lever- and thumb-breaking horror stories that you read about for many tubeless wheel/tyre combos.

Against that, there's a lot of stories online about Mavic hubs and spokes, how unreliable they are and how hard to replace.

Still debating so again, any advice appreciated!

harringtonp

MediaMan wrote: »

An update on my deliberations and some observations...
The Shamal Mille are not available in 2-way fit (despite some articles that say they are), only the Ultra (https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Wheels/wheel_shamal_ultra). Also, more generally, Campag/Fulcrum seem to have moved away from 2-way fit for regular road wheels, except for the a few at the top end, although they are retaining it for Disc/CX type wheels.

Mavic on the other hand are going all-in this year with their UST system. I'm looking at the Mavic Kysrium Pro UST: https://shop.mavic.com/en-int/ksyrium-pro-ust-rr0928.html#1028=3283
I'm very tempted by the fact that Mavic (according to their own publicity) have designed the UST system to tight tolerances so that the wheels and tyres match up well. There's a video of some guy putting the tyres on and off with his bare hands and just using a track pump to inflate, which seems in marked contrast to the lever- and thumb-breaking horror stories that you read about for many tubeless wheel/tyre combos.

Against that, there's a lot of stories online about Mavic hubs and spokes, how unreliable they are and how hard to replace.

Still debating so again, any advice appreciated!

There's much better value IMO. For well less than 1000 you can get a <1550g 50mm deep very aero 2 way compatible wheelset. But I think you ruled out both deep section and carbon braking surfaces...

MediaMan

harringtonp wrote: »

There's much better value IMO. For well less than 1000 you can get a <1550g 50mm deep very aero 2 way compatible wheelset. But I think you ruled out both deep section and carbon braking surfaces...

Well, I haven't so much ruled them out, as decided I didn't want to pay extra for something I don't really need (I see the irony of that statement as I write it :pac:). In any case, if I can get added bling without pay extra in euros and grams, then I'm interested! What do you have in mind?

harringtonp

MediaMan wrote: »

Well, I haven't so much ruled them out, as decided I didn't want to pay extra for something I don't really need (I see the irony of that statement as I write it :pac:). In any case, if I can get added bling without pay extra in euros and grams, then I'm interested! What do you have in mind?

I was through all this a little over a year ago. Search for "spokesman wheels" in this forum, order by most recent

MediaMan

harringtonp wrote: »

I was through all this a little over a year ago. Search for "spokesman wheels" in this forum, order by most recent

Thanks, that search was illuminating! The Spokesman Carbonal wheels look great and super value. On the other hand your pic of the carbon rim damage from a blowout makes me think that aluminium is the way to go!
Choices!

harringtonp

MediaMan wrote: »

Thanks, that search was illuminating! The Spokesman Carbonal wheels look great and super value. On the other hand your pic of the carbon rim damage from a blowout makes me think that aluminium is the way to go!
Choices!

Yes that is a decision alright. I'll just add that any carbon rim would have suffered the same damage in the same circumstances and I was really pushing things with such a light tyre and latex tube. Since I've gone tubeless on this wheelset with the Pro Ones I have had no problems.

And as regards carbon braking, the fact that I haven't noticed any difference at all (and I've used them in very heavy rain) would almost lead me to believe that poor braking on carbon rims is a myth.

A thing to keep in mind if getting a new carbon wheelset and going tubeless on it is that you need to budget about an extra 150 euro over a non carbon and non tubeless setup. This will cover purchase of additional items such as special brake pads, compression chamber pump, sealant, tubeless valve, rim tape and slightly higher cost of tubeless tyres. Much of this outlay can be viewed as once off as a lot of these items will last a long time.

Andy Magic

Does anyone know where I can buy some tyre sealant in Dublin city centre?

Brian

Lot of good info on tubeless here https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/282074/

brownian

My latest tubeless experience: replaced the front tyre a week or two back (with much fun re-inflating, see earlier in thread), but decided the back wheel was a faff too far, and anyway now I know how to do it. However, the back tyre is a bit worn (Schwalbe Pro Ones are not the most long-lasting, compared to GP4000s). Naturally, I got a puncture the other day, in the back wheel, while on 4-day mini-tour. Either the sealant has dried out (never topped up or replaced it), and/or the hole was too big (maybe a 2-3mm slit-type cut, on the crown of the tyre (middle of road contact area)). So, pumping it up only produced a musical whistle as the air came back out the hole.

Time to try the anchovies that I've been carrying around, somewhat skeptically, for a few months now. Jap the little squiggle of rubber with the fork, shove it through the hole, wait a minute or two, withdraw fork (without withdrawing anchovy). Hmmm...quieter now. Wait a minute. Pump it up again - tyre's hard. Trim away excess anchovy carefully with sharp knife. Rode on for another 3 days. Good as new.

The lessons:
- not every hole is auto-sealed
- top up your sealant (how often??)
- worn tyres get punctures
- anchovies work
- a floor pump (even the mini ones that clip to your frame) is a thing of beauty, compared to a hand pump.

....overall, another thumbs up for tubeless.

devonp

what are anchovies ?
some sort of mini boot for tubeless ?

i have a set of two-way fit rims (fulcrum) which i'm going to fit out and put on the bike this weekend, not sure whether i'll go tubeless or reg clincher ??
might get the LBS to put on tubeless or show me how ?

harringtonp

Would you have a link to where you got your anchovies ? And the fork you describe too ?

Then we can see what they look like.

I would describe my Pro Ones as having reasonable wear though I guess I don't do the mileage you do. They went on the bike last August and weren't used from October through February and still look like there is a bit of wear on them.

Brian

Anchovies aka tyre worms - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybtkPaA5LLo
https://www.evanscycles.com/innovations-tubeless-tyre-repair-kit-EV150146

Piece of sticky rubber string that you stab into the tyre from the outside to seal up larger holes than the sealant can handle. Something similar is used for motorbike and car tyres for punctures from nails etc.

brownian

That's exactly it, Brian. The idea seems odd, but it's what they do with car tyres too. The teeny fork and five anchovies weights a couple of grams and is maybe as fat around as a pencil, and 2 or 3 cm long - goes handy in that mini-ziplock of spare chain links, bottle cage bolts, fatboys and other stuff that lurks at the back of your saddlebag for when the day comes...They seem to last pretty well before use - mine have been sitting there for months.

@Harringtonp - I rode my Pro Ones all winter, including a few audaxes on variable roads. I'd say (sample of one) that they are noticeably less durable that GP4000s, but also (sample of one) noticeably faster.

harringtonp

Brian wrote: »

Anchovies aka tyre worms - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybtkPaA5LLo
https://www.evanscycles.com/innovations-tubeless-tyre-repair-kit-EV150146

Piece of sticky rubber string that you stab into the tyre from the outside to seal up larger holes than the sealant can handle. Something similar is used for motorbike and car tyres for punctures from nails etc.

So these arrived from Evans today and are much smaller than you would think from the site. Attached photo shows a comparison with a pen.

So anyhow I reckon I'll race now carrying just a small pump and these which I hope would get me out of a fix. I wondering though what to put the punch in so as to mitigate against stabbing in the event of an accident and what to put the tyre worms in so they don't disintegrate in wet jersey pockets. Any ideas ?