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Diesel is not dead - NOₓ problems solved?!

grogi

Bosch has just announced that a new exhaust gases system takes care of the NOₓ and brings the emissions down to 13 mg/km (40 mg/km in challenging urban env). Impressive - current regulations require 168 mg/km...

http://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/breakthrough-new-bosch-diesel-technology-provides-solution-to-nox-problem-155524.html

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Capt'n Midnight

James Bond Junior wrote: »

If they may make hydrogen a viable option then all will be good in the world again.

Hydrogen is clean burning indeed.

But it takes a lot of energy to make it, and to compress it. So overall efficiency falls. And it's not easy to store or transport. It's very leaky and hydrogen embrittlement is a thing too. It's light so needs large high pressure tanks.

TBH if you had unlimited hydrogen the easiest way to use and store it would be as hydrocarbons - synthetic fuel.

Fuel cells are a far more efficient way to use hydrogen than an internal combustion engine. But since they are batteries you could just use batteries.

Cordell

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Great if true. Why not refine the fuel too, something that I don't get. They keep trying to come up with ways of burning the muck cleaner, why not clean the muck it runs on first.
New diesel fuels like HVO should be on market, and ban the 1910's diesel fuel.

NOx doesn't come from the fuel, is a byproduct of lean burning specific to Diesel engines, no matter what they burn. The N and O that forms them are actually in the air.

Sam Quentin

You do know::-- that the new generation of 'electric' cars will be charging themselves as in the dated alternator 'science' of charging your car battery.....
So all this talk about searching for charge pumps/kiosks and wasting time etc etc.
Well it really has no bearing on the op.
NOW in saying that.. This new technology in the diesel sector will have to be looked at!? And in my mind gives greater reasoning why the argument to scrap diesel needs to be seriously looked at and scrutinised and if needs to be then should be debated once again.
And if that happens!? Then I can see diesel cars being a part of the family for many MANY years to come.

eeguy

grogi wrote: »

Nitroglycerine was exactly like that - difficult to transport and incredibly explosive. Until Alfred Nobel invented dynamite.nWe just need another invention that figures out how to store hydrogen...

Yeah but you're waiting on a whole new technology to develop. You'll still need some form of pressure vessel to hold a worthwhile amount of it, which is expensive, explosive and never going to be as useful as a jerry can. Maybe us in the western world might get it, but South America, Asia and Africa are going to be decades behind.
Dynamite was still VERY explosive, so I don't think your analogy is correct.

grogi wrote: »

And overhauling electricity grid to handle the demand is not going to be difficult?

What overhaul. Every country in the world has a capable electricity system. It's cheap, it's understood and many studies have shown that the US, Ireladn and UK at least are very capable of taking a huge number of EV's without any changes(I haven't bothered to look beyond these, but I'm sure similar studies exist). Remember that EV's charge at night when usage is typically minimal.

There is near zero infrastructure for hydrogen. None of the existing oil infrastructure is anyway capable of hydrogen transport, so you're starting from scratch.

grogi wrote: »

You can use the electricity from those renewable sources to generate hydrogen...

Sure, but why would you bother with a middleman when the electricity can just go straight into the car.

grogi wrote: »

Electricity is excellent - but storing it is not. The biggest hurdle in BEV adoption are batteries - expensive (much cheaper than years ago, but still), heavy, flammable and take years to refill.

Battery prices have dropped like a stone and show no signs of stopping.
Weight isn't a problem, seeing as the fastest accelerating cars are all EV.
Many of the range anxiety issues have been solves and will appear on new cars in the next few years.
Far less flammable and safer than hydrogen.

grogi wrote: »

Years to refill

Ah come off it. If you regularly charge at home you actually save time not going to a petrol station. A fast charge takes 30 mins to 80% capacity.

Hydrogen is the minidisk of energy sources. Big hype, but immediately superseded by a cheaper, more reliable, better technology.

Y2K86

colm_mcm wrote: »

Problem is where all the raw materials to make the batteries is gonna come from and what happens to those countries (example, democratic republ8c of Congo) when cobalt becomes the new crude oil.

Electric is the future, batteries maybe not, you could be right

Alot of really smart people reckon capacitors will replace batteries long term, but that could be decades away

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/08/supercapacitors-game-changing-improvement-on-energy-density-compared-to-batteries.html/amp

grogi

eeguy wrote: »

Hydrogen on a large scale doesn't make sense though.

It's a small molecule that's incredibly energy intensive to create

That's the whole point - it stores a lot of energy...

and difficult to transport. Not to mention incredibly explosive.

Nitroglycerine was exactly like that - difficult to transport and incredibly explosive. Until Alfred Nobel invented dynamite.nWe just need another invention that figures out how to store hydrogen...

So you need to spend lots of cash to completely overhaul a worldwide system of fuel transport.

And overhauling electricity grid to handle the demand is not going to be difficult?

A fuel with with is created with electricity, probably gonna be transported with electricity and will eventually be burnt to create electricity, to charge a battery to run an electric motor.

So why don't you just use electricity in the first place? It's already widely available, dirt cheap and will be more widely and locally available as renewables and micro generators continue to grow.

You can use the electricity from those renewable sources to generate hydrogen...

Electricity is excellent - but storing it is not. The biggest hurdle in BEV adoption are batteries - expensive (much cheaper than years ago, but still), heavy, flammable and take years to refill.

eeguy

circadian wrote: »

I think hydrogen makes more sense regarding building materials. That and the fact that it's the most abundant element in the universe.

Hydrogen on a large scale doesn't make sense though.

It's a small molecule that's incredibly energy intensive to create and difficult to transport.
Not to mention incredibly explosive.

So you need to spend lots of cash to completely overhaul a worldwide system of fuel transport.
A fuel with with is created with electricity, probably gonna be transported with electricity and will eventually be burnt to create electricity, to charge a battery to run an electric motor.

So why don't you just use electricity in the first place? It's already widely available, dirt cheap and will be more widely and locally available as renewables and micro generators continue to grow.

[Deleted User]

colm_mcm wrote: »

I honestly think that just like hybrids were the gateway to battery powered cars, battery powered cars will be a stopgap till hydrogen hits it big.

I think hydrogen makes more sense regarding building materials. That and the fact that it's the most abundant element in the universe.

AuldDaysul

To be fair Bosch are fuel injection specialists, they've been advancing the technology for decades. Do people really think they would make this sort of statement and leave themselves open to the sort of scrutiny that will no doubt take place?

Hopefully the new tech is as tuneable as rotary pumps, piezo injectors and hp pumps ðŸ˜…

colm_mcm

circadian wrote: »

There have been studies showing promising results from making batteries from easily obtained resources like granite, saline water and others.

I'd imagine it's a long way off yet but an increase in electric cars should drive the demand.

As for hydrogen, the Japanese seem quite happy to continue to develop this technology. I could well imagine it becoming commonplace soon enough.

The tech in the OP may give diesel a slight boost in overall lifespan but the damage is already done and electric and hybrid vehicles will take over pretty quickly.

I think it'll be difficult for a lot of people to trust any figures relating to diesel now.

I honestly think that just like hybrids were the gateway to battery powered cars, battery powered cars will be a stopgap till hydrogen hits it big.

dieselbug

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03714-9

ei9go

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss diesel cars. I have a Captur 1.5 dci auto returning around 5.1 L per 100km and for the past week have been driving a Captur 120 TCE auto and it's doing 7L per 100km.

I had kind of forgotten just how quick the needle drops in a petrol car.

So much for the spin that petrol cars are now as good as diesel for economy.

dr.fuzzenstein

And Special Circumstances in 3...2....1....

twin_beacon

bazz26 wrote: »

Oh this isn't good, what are the haters going to hate now?

there may even be threads here without "dayshal" and "chape tax" being mentioned!

MugMugs

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how so?, all HGV and buses and a lot of rail run on it, that kind of stuff is not going to change anytime soon, even if diesel cars are wiped out

They're making a hybrid Transit

Henry Ford III

Comical Ali and Trump himself wouldn't get a look in here.

Mystic Meg makes more accurate predictions btw.

dr.fuzzenstein

the_syco wrote: »

Perhaps with molten salt?

If we do go full electric, we'll need a few more nuclear power plants to dish out the wattage that'll be needed.

Not a popular option right now. Brain damaged green pinko lefties want to shut down all nuclear and coal powered power stations in Germany and go 100% green.
Meaning, we're just buying the stuff from our neighbours who may not be as concerned with standards and safety as we are, but who cares?
At least we're green.
I dream of a world were politicians think further than the next poll...

The salt thing is really cool BTW.

the_syco

colm_mcm wrote: »

Problem is where all the raw materials to make the batteries is gonna come from and what happens to those countries (example, democratic republ8c of Congo) when cobalt becomes the new crude oil.

Perhaps with molten salt?

If we do go full electric, we'll need a few more nuclear power plants to dish out the wattage that'll be needed.

[Deleted User]

So just more piss?

selectamatic

I preferred their older technology.

Bosch pump dTurbo's ftw!

Frankie Lee

Doesn't seem to be anything new technology wise here. Just upping the ad blue dosage, using all NOx reducing methods available and running software capable of keeping the NOx down. Whether that software can keep the NOx down in the real "real world emissions" long term and maintain reasonable reliability remains to be seen. Also Bosch are hardly trustworthy given their integral role in VW's dieselgate.

John_Rambo

Q - When did we start to run out of crude oil?

A - When we opened the first barrel.

recyclebin

Sorry to be a bit sceptical here but Bosch were heavily involved in the VW emissions scandal so I'd take this story with a pinch of salt.

bazz26

Oh this isn't good, what are the haters going to hate now?

Cookie_Monster

Agent_47 wrote: »

Politically diesel is dead, that is what really counts. Now they plan taxes on EV

how so?, all HGV and buses and a lot of rail run on it, that kind of stuff is not going to change anytime soon, even if diesel cars are wiped out

[Deleted User]

colm_mcm wrote: »

Problem is where all the raw materials to make the batteries is gonna come from and what happens to those countries (example, democratic republ8c of Congo) when cobalt becomes the new crude oil.

There have been studies showing promising results from making batteries from easily obtained resources like granite, saline water and others.

I'd imagine it's a long way off yet but an increase in electric cars should drive the demand.

As for hydrogen, the Japanese seem quite happy to continue to develop this technology. I could well imagine it becoming commonplace soon enough.

The tech in the OP may give diesel a slight boost in overall lifespan but the damage is already done and electric and hybrid vehicles will take over pretty quickly.

I think it'll be difficult for a lot of people to trust any figures relating to diesel now.

Agent_47

Politically diesel is dead, that is what really counts. Now they plan taxes on EV

Cookie_Monster

colm_mcm wrote: »

Problem is where all the raw materials to make the batteries is gonna come from and what happens to those countries (example, democratic republ8c of Congo) when cobalt becomes the new crude oil.

Japan solved that last week
https://thehustle.co/japan-finds-rare-earth-metals-underwater/

Tuco88

spacetweek wrote: »

All fuels will be killed by battery electric within 10 years.

I very much doubt it. Id say more like 20 years.

You think the major oil companies will step aside handy.

Still we need to kick start the electric car industry.

colm_mcm

Problem is where all the raw materials to make the batteries is gonna come from and what happens to those countries (example, democratic republ8c of Congo) when cobalt becomes the new crude oil.