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Child Item

Leap card misuse- fine!

Msrebeckyxo

Hi! So today I was getting a train from heuston to portlaoise. I was getting off in newbridge which is new for me as I normally get off at sallins however I was meeting my mam.
So a ticket inspector got on and asked for a ticket and I proceeded to tell him I had my leap card etc, he went on to tell me that I needed a ticket as there is no leap card validator in Newbridge. I told him I was unaware of this etc as there’s one in sallins which is 5 mins Before newbridge, and there’s no posters or advertisements to say otherwise. I
I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.
I commute from Clane to and from Killester 4 days a week, so use the luas, Dublin bus and the dart most days. Irish rail is used probably in a blue moon, think last time I used it was 3 weeks ago. But I’m very good at tapping on and off etc which they can view in my receipts.
I’ve sent an email to appeal but what do you think will be the outcome? Just can’t really understand why I’ve been fined as I did tap on, I paid my fare, just didn’t understand that there wouldn’t be a validator!
Thanks

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Stephen15

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, but not everybody is the mod of a public transport / commuting forum on their country's biggest online message board.

No but a bit of common sense would tell you before you make a journey that you wouldn't usually do, you do some research into it. At the end of the day you don't drive to a strange place without researching the directions to get there same thing applies when using public transport.

[Deleted User]

That's the thing though, she is familiar with the journey and has done it a number of times. The only difference is that she is going one extra stop this time. It will be obvious from the cards history that this is the case.

devnull

Yeah, but not everybody is the mod of a public transport / commuting forum on their country's biggest online message board.

Whether I'm a mod or not doesn't influence my ability to search the internet to look for information on a place I am going to travel to. It's common sense to research things related to transport when you are taking a trip to a new place or a new country and taking a bit of responsibility for yourself.

I agree that there are things that Irish Rail can do better with maps and also announcements as well though, but if someone is able to look at a timetable to know when the train is at, they are able to look at the fare info as well.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why wait until after Sallins to check the tickets in the first place? If this is a regular occurrence, why not flag it early doors and give people a chance to rectify it. It doesn't take an hour to go the full length of the train, surely? If it's not that regular, then whats the issue with letting the odd one slide?

Because as we know, if we ask everyone where they are going, everyone will tell the truth 100% of the time and not a single person will over-ride or give a false station name to try and gain some kind of an advantage or cost saving?

L1011

BarryD2 wrote: »

Regardless though: if I was in HR in IR, I'd pull in this inspector and advise them to be more careful when representing the company. And if they repeated treating fare paying customers like this, well I'd fire them.

"more careful" by not doing their job?

You may not quite have realised but the issue here is that the fare wasn't paid...

I sincerely hope you have no HR or managerial responsibilities anywhere based on your posts in this thread!

Stephen15

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why wait until after Sallins to check the tickets in the first place? If this is a regular occurrence, why not flag it early doors and give people a chance to rectify it. It doesn't take an hour to go the full length of the train, surely? If it's not that regular, then whats the issue with letting the odd one slide?

And that would dimminish the point of random ticket checks if they're not going to be before or after a certain station. Everyone would know where the ticket inspectors will get on and work ways around them.

Msrebeckyxo

Now that I think about it, they got on in either celbridge or Adamstown. A woman in a wheelchair got in on celbridge and was giving out to them about how he lift wasn’t working in Portlaoise and one of them was on the phone to that station. Didn’t get to me until sallins. Not that it matters hahahaha

Tarabuses

EdgeCase wrote: »

What would be reasonable would be to allow a confused passenger to pay the correct fare and explain the situation properly.

All they need to say is "This is Blahblah station. This is the final stop on the Leap Card system. Passengers traveling beyond this point need an appropriate ticket. If you do not have a ticket, please exit the train here. Leap card is not valid beyond this station. "

They make such clear announcements on the edge of the Oyster Card system for example.

This and a similar suggestion earlier seem to have been ignored.

I am just back from Melbourne where there is a free tram zone in the centre of the city. At the stop before exiting the zone there is an announcement to remind passengers to tag on.

Irish Rail should make every effort to help passengers, not leave booby traps.

Losty Dublin

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Now that I think about it, they got on in either celbridge or Adamstown. A woman in a wheelchair got in on celbridge and was giving out to them about how he lift wasn’t working in Portlaoise and one of them was on the phone to that station. Didn’t get to me until sallins. Not that it matters hahahaha

OP, at the risk of repeating myself but what specific sort of ticket were you using when you were stopped?

It wasn't this one, was it?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104567042&postcount=1

Msrebeckyxo

Losty Dublin wrote: »

OP, at the risk of repeating myself but what specific sort of ticket were you using when you were stopped?

It wasn't this one, was it?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104567042&postcount=1

Hahaha no, Jesus leap child card expired as soon as I turned 19

I use a student leap as I am over 19 now!

Losty Dublin

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Hahaha no, Jesus leap child card expired as soon as I turned 19 I use a student leap as I am over 19 now!

Makes sense now

How did you suss out what card suits your usage best, in the end?

Msrebeckyxo

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Makes sense now How did you suss out what card suits your usage best, in the end?

Aw I just got a child one because the Dublin bus people told me I was entilted to it. Was amazing at the start as I was literally topping up by 20 euros a week, but when I turned 19, it was quite depressing, paying double!
But sure that’s life haha!

[Deleted User]

Plenty people have annual passes from Newbridge to Connolly / Tara / Pearse which are in the form of LEAP cards.

Msrebeckyxo

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

Plenty people have annual passes from Newbridge to Connolly / Tara / Pearse which are in the form of LEAP cards.

How do they tap on with these passes, if you don’t mind me asking?!

[Deleted User]

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

How do they tap on with these passes, if you don’t mind me asking?!

You put the card up to against the ticket validator. The expiry date of the annual pass shows up on the display and it makes a beeping sound.

The barriers are usually open so if you walk through without scanning / tapping it I don't think it actually matters. The ticket has been paid for by the employer in advance so there's no balance that has to be deducted / reduced each time.

Msrebeckyxo

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

You put the card up to against the ticket validator. The expiry date of the annual pass shows up on the display and it makes a beeping sound.

The barriers are usually open so if you walk through without scanning / tapping it I don't think it actually matters. The ticket has been paid for by the employer in advance so there's no balance that has to be deducted / reduced each time.

So I’m confused then, why do they not accept leap cards when they already have validators in the station, that’s very strange!

[Deleted User]

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

So I’m confused then, why do they not accept leap cards when they already have validators in the station, that’s very strange!

Maybe there is a difference between the validators in the short hop zone and the regular ones found in Newbridge, Kildare, Athy etc?

Dravokivich

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

So I’m confused then, why do they not accept leap cards when they already have validators in the station, that’s very strange!

They are using taxsaver tickets, not travel credit.

Losty Dublin

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Aw I just got a child one because the Dublin bus people told me I was entilted to it. Was amazing at the start as I was literally topping up by 20 euros a week, but when I turned 19, it was quite depressing, paying double!
But sure that’s life haha!

And how did you know that a Leapcard covers trip to Sallins?

[Deleted User]

devnull wrote: »

Whether I'm a mod or not doesn't influence my ability to search the internet to look for information on a place I am going to travel to. It's common sense to research things related to transport when you are taking a trip to a new place or a new country and taking a bit of responsibility for yourself.

I agree that there are things that Irish Rail can do better with maps and also announcements as well though, but if someone is able to look at a timetable to know when the train is at, they are able to look at the fare info as well.

Because as we know, if we ask everyone where they are going, everyone will tell the truth 100% of the time and not a single person will over-ride or give a false station name to try and gain some kind of an advantage or cost saving?

1. The point about being a mod is that there are a number of factors that one can assume about you that would put you at a level far higher than your average punter. You obviously have an interest in this sort of thing, understand how it works, know about different international standards, are capable of using the Internet competently etc. My aunt is/has none of those things. She knows what a leap card is though.

2. Timetables are everywhere in train stations. I'd wager the info on short hop zone limits and the requirement of using a non-leap card beyond a certain point, on certain trains, is not as ubiquitous or easily understood. This lady has been getting those trains, within those zones a few times a week and was unaware that it was not allowed.

3. Are the ticket checks random, or is it just a coincidence it happened after the SHZ stops to maximise the chances of catching people? What's stopping someone from buying a ticket to Newbridge and staying on until Portlaoise? Do you accept that such a person is completely different to the OP and should be treated differently?

[Deleted User]

Dravokivich wrote: »

They are using taxsaver tickets, not travel credit.

Are the machines not the same?

Dravokivich

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are the machines not the same?

You are arguing over 2 different types of services.

JayRoc

The self-righteous seem to have a new war cry : "It was in the terms and conditions!"

Dravokivich

JayRoc wrote: »

The self-righteous seem to have a new war cry : "It was in the terms and conditions!"

When Irish Rail are wrong, I argue out against it. Here, it's purely a case of the OP not checking the journey they were going to make.

Calina

Irish Rail could make it easier to be aware of this.

The objective should be to create a user friendly system. That someone gets caught out like this should also be a sign they are getting Informing Our Users wrong.

gimli2112

It's a terrible system and makes no sense that leap can't be rolled out for suburban rail. I don't believe there's no way to implement this, it's hardly rocket science.
I'd have sympathy for people who genuinely fall foul of the system. People make mistakes and shouldn't have to pay €113 for trivial ones such as these.
Also can we debunk the myth that it's fare-dodgers that cause ticket prices to increase? They're a drop in the ocean of this company's problems.

Bob24

Calina wrote: »

Irish Rail could make it easier to be aware of this.

The objective should be to create a user friendly system. That someone gets caught out like this should also be a sign they are getting Informing Our Users wrong.

If you look at the first few pages of this thread and what was liked and said be a wide range of different posters, a clear majority fully agrees with what you are saying here. The last few pages give a misleading impression of the general opinion as a few posters want to have the last word at any cost and make a lot of noise saying there is no problem (while most people have moved on as they are not interested in a thread which is basically running in circle with those posters and no new or different argument being brought to the table). Probably a good idea to move on and let them think that because they have been the last one posting their opinion on this thread it must be the best opinion ;-)

schemingbohemia

Calina wrote: »

Irish Rail could make it easier to be aware of this.

The objective should be to create a user friendly system. That someone gets caught out like this should also be a sign they are getting Informing Our Users wrong.

There will always be idiots and chancers, not saying the OP is either by the way, but in order to protect revenue you need to have the system set up for the chancers, otherwise everyone coming in from Newbridge would just buy a short hop zone ticket and plead ignorance.

EdgeCase

All systems like this should be tested out from the point of view of a customer. There's no point in getting all high handed about 'rules are rules' - you're providing a commercial service to customers, not trying to put them through some kind test on knowledge of obscure transportation system bylaws and ticketing practices.

If you think about who uses those services for a moment. They are ordinary people who really don't have the time or energy to be going off trying to read some T&Cs or figure out unnecessarily complex systems.

Even from an accessibility point of view, you also have to bear in mind that a significant percentage of your customers may be unable to read fine print without their glasses, may not hear announcements, may speak other languages, may be cognitively impaired.

All public transport systems should be audited from the point of view of user experience.

It's a transport system. It should run smoothly and people should find it easy and pleasant to use. It's not supposed to be full of boobytraps and bureaucratic trapdoors where you'll suddenly be hit with a fine for some kind of technical breech of a ticket policy that is clearly confusing.

If you want to continue to go around blaming customers and creating horribly user-unfriendly systems, you'll continue the slow death of rail in Ireland.

All of these things come across as an unpleasant experience and people talk about that to other people and then your system is seen as unfriendly / unhelpful and dismissive of passengers.

It's not unique to public bodies like CIE, but any company or organisation that starts to create customer-unfriendly bureaucrats and 'gotcha' type rules and enforcement of those will rapidly find its seen as an unpleasant experience.

The things that drive me nuts about Irish Rail are this kind of thing and also the inconsistency of services. For example, you book a seat and you discover it's unavailable due to the train being a different type to the one you booked on (happens on the Cork line now and then) or that someone's sitting in it and there's no enforcement.

Dravokivich

A few people keep on suggesting there is a degree of complexity, but not presenting the reason behind it.

Bye Laws and Terms and conditions exist for one reason, not to enforce against unassuming commuters, but to protect those organisations that have them.

EdgeCase

That's totally irrelevant. The bylaws and ticketing rules should not be causing 'gotcha' scenarios like this.

It's a badly designed ticketing policy if people are finding themselves caught short and are clearly confused.

You can either solve the problems or blame the customers and damage the organisation.

Or, you can take the approach that the communication and ticketing need to be addressed and fix the problem, enhancing customer experience and the organisation's reputation.

The choice is yours: good marketing and product design or petty bureaucracy.