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Leap card misuse- fine!

Msrebeckyxo

Hi! So today I was getting a train from heuston to portlaoise. I was getting off in newbridge which is new for me as I normally get off at sallins however I was meeting my mam.
So a ticket inspector got on and asked for a ticket and I proceeded to tell him I had my leap card etc, he went on to tell me that I needed a ticket as there is no leap card validator in Newbridge. I told him I was unaware of this etc as there’s one in sallins which is 5 mins Before newbridge, and there’s no posters or advertisements to say otherwise. I
I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.
I commute from Clane to and from Killester 4 days a week, so use the luas, Dublin bus and the dart most days. Irish rail is used probably in a blue moon, think last time I used it was 3 weeks ago. But I’m very good at tapping on and off etc which they can view in my receipts.
I’ve sent an email to appeal but what do you think will be the outcome? Just can’t really understand why I’ve been fined as I did tap on, I paid my fare, just didn’t understand that there wouldn’t be a validator!
Thanks

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BarryD2

wally79 wrote: »

How is an inspector supposed to tell the difference on the spot between an honest mistake and a deliberate fare evasion.

They have to apply the rules consistently or not at all

They are supposed to have brains, be judges of character and situation. They are a public face of the company.

wally79

BarryD2 wrote: »

They are supposed to have brains, be judges of character and situation. They are a public face of the company.

So maybe the OP wasn’t very believable

nxbyveromdwjpg

flatty wrote: »

They don't though. I've seen them completely avoid any dodgy looking lads. They are not at all consistent. The inspector was heavy handed here, could easily have been more understanding, and was, well, a bollox.

Of course they dont go near anyone dodgy, that could turn into work.

The inspector was most like the typical one, spends most of his working days pondering whether to sniff his own armpit or scratch his bollox, his only brief respite from his miserable life is the odd opportunity to bully someone for making a mistake, so he jumped at this chance and went to town with it.

No way I would have given him the leap card.

Msrebeckyxo

Camden Angry Nitwit wrote: »

Of course they dont go near anyone dodgy, that could turn into work.

The inspector was most like the typical one, spends most of his working days pondering whether to sniff his own armpit or scratch his bollox, his only brief respite from his miserable life is the odd opportunity to bully someone for making a mistake, so he jumped at this chance and went to town with it.

No way I would have given him the leap card.

Aw I really wished that I hadn’t given it to him! I handed it for him to scan it before I knew this was going to be a problem. And he used it to take my name off it. By the time I was getting off at newbridge I asked for it back, and he looked quite sheepish when telling me that he had to keep it for evidence, I was in tears at this point so I just stormed off the train hahaha. Wish I handled the situation differently, by not handing over the cardðŸ€·ðŸ¼*♀️

WoollyRedHat

What happens in a situation where you had missed your stop, which I'm sure has happened before.. do they consider you as dodging fare then?

JennyZ

L1011 wrote: »

Newbridge is not in the Leap zone. Sallins was only recently added

There is realistically no chance of the appeal succeeding

I'm slightly confused about this .. and maybe a dumb question ( I get a Drogheda train from Rush) how is Newbridge 'not in the Leap zone' if people tag on in Pearse or Connolly to get a Newbridge (final destination) train? Or is just taking a max fare on that stop. this person took a Portlaoise train though which obviously is causing added complications

WoollyRedHat

JennyZ wrote: »

I'm slightly confused about this .. and maybe a dumb question ( I get a Drogheda train from Rush) how is Newbridge 'not in the Leap zone' if people tag on in Pearse or Connolly to get a Newbridge train? Or is just taking a max fare on that stop. this person took a Portlaoise train though which obviously is causing added complications

It`s max fare which may be refunded depending on what zone you`re in when you get off at your destination and tap off. (Provided stations in question are operating in confines of Leap card service).

Cakerbaker

JennyZ wrote: »

I'm slightly confused about this .. and maybe a dumb question ( I get a Drogheda train from Rush) how is Newbridge 'not in the Leap zone' if people tag on in Pearse or Connolly to get a Newbridge (final destination) train? Or is just taking a max fare on that stop. this person took a Portlaoise train though which obviously is causing added complications

The train that goes to newbridge probably stops in some stations that are in the short hop zone where the leap card can be used like sallins. I get the rosslare train home everyday but use my leap card as I get off in Bray which is within the short hop zone.

[Deleted User]

Squatter wrote: »

True - I used my Ryanair ticket from Dublin to London to fly to Athens recently and the stewardess just smiled sweetly at me as I disembarked. :rolleyes:

What the **** are you talking about?
I'll explain it simply: Irish Rail are state-owned. Our state's transport authority rolled out the Leap card over 6 years ago yet the state-owned rail company still hasn't fully implemented it. At the same time privately owned companies have managed to do it even though they're not integrated into other ticketing. It's a shambles.

Cakerbaker

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What the **** are you talking about?
I'll explain it simply: Irish Rail are state-owned. Our state's transport authority rolled out the Leap card over 6 years ago yet the state-owned rail company still hasn't fully implemented it. At the same time privately owned companies have managed to do it even though they're not integrated into other ticketing. It's a shambles.

But if this was to be fully implemented across the whole system woul people not need to have a minimum balance of something like €50 on their cards at all times seeing as they could potentially tag on in Dublin and head to cork! The current minimum fare is €4.90 for the short hop zone. It would need to be increased substantially if the minimum fare covered the whole country.

wench

Deleted User wrote: »

What the **** are you talking about?
I'll explain it simply: Irish Rail are state-owned. Our state's transport authority rolled out the Leap card over 6 years ago yet the state-owned rail company still hasn't fully implemented it. At the same time privately owned companies have managed to do it even though they're not integrated into other ticketing. It's a shambles.

So should they have a minimum reserve balance of €80 in case one wanted to go all the way to Cork on it?

L1011

JennyZ wrote: »

I'm slightly confused about this .. and maybe a dumb question ( I get a Drogheda train from Rush) how is Newbridge 'not in the Leap zone' if people tag on in Pearse or Connolly to get a Newbridge (final destination) train? Or is just taking a max fare on that stop. this person took a Portlaoise train though which obviously is causing added complications

You can use leap on a a newbridge train until sallins just as you use one on a Drogheda train before Balbriggan and I use Sligo trains to Maynooth (kilcock also allowed) and so on

Staying on after the leap zone ends requires a paper ticket.

Same applies with oyster on London routes

A final cutoff has to exist or else the reserve would have to cover the dearest standard class ticket as said above.

The Netherlands allows their onwide card to be used intercity only if you have a very high balance and despite its many failings it's often considered the best implementation

Stephen15

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What the **** are you talking about?
I'll explain it simply: Irish Rail are state-owned. Our state's transport authority rolled out the Leap card over 6 years ago yet the state-owned rail company still hasn't fully implemented it. At the same time privately owned companies have managed to do it even though they're not integrated into other ticketing. It's a shambles.

Leap was orginally only intended for travel within the GDA it has now been expanded to many places further away from Dublin and Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford cities.

Bob24

L1011 wrote: »

A final cutoff has to exist or else the reserve would have to cover the dearest standard class ticket as said above.

I think there are other and better ways to do it*, but if a cutoff point has to exist at the very least it should be very clearly indicated when you board the train as well as on network maps inside the train, and possibly a voice announcement at the last stop before that cut-off should be made to ensure passenger are aware. It is not reasonable to expect passengers have to look-up each station online before deciding whether they need to buy a ticket or they can use their leap card.

* for exemple not mixing local service and national service on the same trains; or if it is mixed segregating platforms for trains covering national service with special leap card validators which do require a minimum balance to go through which is sufficient for the full journey (while purely local trains wouldn't have that requirement)

L1011

Bob24 wrote: »

* for exemple not mixing local service and national service on the same trains; or if it is mixed segregating platforms for trains covering national service with special leap card validators which do require a minimum balance to go through which is sufficient for the full journey (while purely local trains wouldn't have that requirement)

Neither of these are vaguely practical.

Spanish Eyes

Probaby not enough information out there for irregular users of LEAP to be fair.

Are there signs anywhere saying where the the last stop valid for LEAP is anywhere?

BAD customer information so.

But loadsa dough from fines. Win for IR.

Cakerbaker

Bob24 wrote: »

* for exemple not mixing local service and national service on the same trains; or if it is mixed segregating platforms for trains covering national service with special leap card validators which do require a minimum balance to go through which is sufficient for the full journey (while purely local trains wouldn't have that requirement)

How would this work in stations like Pearse and Tara which have one platform in each direction and serve both dart and train services like Wexford and rosslare? How do you prevent people boarding the rosslare train to get off in Dun Laoighre or Bray which are 2 of dart stations served by these train services?

Bob24

L1011 wrote: »

Neither of these are vaguely practical.

If you plan properly it perfectly practical (and faster for long distance passengers) to separate local and national services on different trains. It doesn't mean trains can't use the same tracks, they just don't stop at the same stations or if they do stations have two separate areas. Many countries are doing that.

Agree the other option is not fully practical, but again what we have at the moment is not great either as the ticket validation options are inconsistent with no clear visibility to the passengers.

Bob24

Cakerbaker wrote: »

How would this work in stations like Pearse and Tara which have one platform in each direction and serve both dart and train services like Wexford and rosslare? How do you prevent people boarding the rosslare train to get off in Dun Laoighre or Bray which are 2 of dart stations served by these train services?

Rearrange the station to have 2 separate areas or if not possible/desirable reroute those trains trough stations which do have that option.

Basically the first step is to admit something is broken because of some laziness with the way Leap Cards were introduced, and to have the will to fix it in the medium to long term (it is not a very quick fix and requires a bit of planning, but it is far from being a very hard one for a decent railway company).

Cakerbaker

Bob24 wrote: »

Rearrange the station to have 2 separate areas or if not possible/desirable reroute those trains trough stations which do have that option.

Basically the first step is to admit something is broken because of some laziness with the way Leap Cards were introduced, and to have the will to fix it in the medium to long term (it is not a very quick fix and requires a bit of planning, but it is far from being a very hard one for a decent railway company).

Tbh it seems like you want to spend a lot of money and inconvenience an awful lot of people to benefit a minority of people who don’t check where their ticket covers them to travel to.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

Rearrange the station to have 2 separate areas or if not possible/desirable reroute those trains trough stations which do have that option.

The vast majority of stations only have one platform in each direction and certainly not enough room to add additional platforms or split them into two without massive infrastructure costs that are far better spent on other things.

If you plan properly it perfectly practical (and faster for long distance passengers) to separate local and national services on different trains. It doesn't mean trains can't use the same tracks, they just don't stop at the same stations or if they do stations have two separate areas.

Also you are aware that people often connect from commuter/intercity/DART trains to one another to continue their journey. Making some types of trains only stop at one or the other stops that from happening.

Grab All Association

As far as Thurles was supposed to be leap supported in 2014 (try find the announcement. It’s a complete farce the roll out. They applied to Thurles Town Council in 2012 to install canopies and ticket barriers.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

The vast majority of stations only have one platform in each direction and certainly not enough room to add additional platforms or split them into two without massive infrastructure costs that are far better spent on other things.

It is not just making the ticket validation system more consistant, it is also making intercity service faster by segregating it from local service. Not a bad way to spend money if you ask me. Compared to other European countries our travel times between cities are pretty bad given the short distance, improving it would both increase passenger confort and develop the economy of cities in the regions through better transport links with the capital.

devnull wrote: »

Also you are aware that people often connect from commuter/intercity/DART trains to one another to continue their journey. Making some types of trains only stop at one or the other stops that from happening.

As I said you can have multiple hub stations throughout the greater Dublin area with interconnection between local and national services. So no problem to combine both.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

It is not just making the ticket validation system more consistant, it is also making intercity service faster by segregating it from local service. Not a bad way to spend money if you ask me (compared to other European countries our travel times between cities are pretty bad, improving it would both increase passenger confort and develop the economy of cities in the regions through better transport links with Dublin).

As I said you can have multiple hub stations throughout the greater Dublin area with interconnection between local and national services. So no problem to combine both.

But where are you going to find the billions it is going to cost in order to fund the construction and massive CPO'ing that will need to be done to create the additional tracks, wiring, signalling, platforms and space that is going to be needed for this. Even then there will be stations where there is physically no space to expand the number of platforms or tracks.

Whilst I can see where you are coming from in theory and agree with what you are saying if we're talking in general rather than about Ireland specifically, you have to take into account the fact that there are serious limitations here, both with existing infrastructure and the lack of land to add additional infrastructure, as well as the massive costs of mass CPO'ing which would be both politically unpopular and expensive.

There are other projects that would give far better value return in my view.

[Deleted User]

HonalD wrote: »

Does breaking the rules not equal cheating the system?

No, and you're being obtuse. There is a clear difference between breaking the rules deliberately, and finding out that you have broken them unbeknownst to yourself. People should be given the benefit of the doubt by default, certainly for a first offence. Think of it in terms of rugby union.... Some fouls are a penalty, some just a scrum.

All you have to do is log the leap card first time round, second offense = fine.

devnull

Deleted User wrote: »

All you have to do is log the leap card first time round, second offense = fine.

Leap Cards only cost €5 and don't need to be registered.

If an evader got caught once they'd simply swap to a new Leap Card and it would be more than worth their while since inspectors are not exactly common on Irish Rail.

You can easily go a year or two without seeing them and even inspectors at ticket gates are of no use at catching those without a tagged on leap card due to conditional validation evasion methods being used.

howiya

If only we could do away with Leap cards and let people use their debit cards instead

Losty Dublin

howiya wrote: »

If only we could do away with Leap cards and let people use their debit cards instead

Or cash. That's nationwide

Losty Dublin

OP, what did they confiscate exactly? Was it an adult, student or child Leap card?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104567042

cbreeze

howiya wrote: »

If only we could do away with Leap cards and let people use their debit cards instead

They've worked out to do this in London, so why not here?