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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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Bahanaman

squinn2912 wrote: »

FLat 10k in Dundalk tonight I came in in 38:11. Was a tough disappointed not to break 38 but fairly happy. What you guys think in terms of sub 3?

I've never broken 38 min myself and have been lucky enough to go sub 3 twice. 2:54 in Frankfurt in 2015 (perfect training block P&D 55-70 and great course) and 2:58 in Dublin in 2016 (training not as good and tougher course). I raced very little before both of those and may have been capable of breaking 38 for the 10k before Frankfurt with the shape I was in. I think when you're focused on the marathon so much that results in shorter races don't have as much bearing on possible marathon times as people think.

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

FLat 10k in Dundalk tonight I came in in 38:11. Was a tough disappointed not to break 38 but fairly happy. What you guys think in terms of sub 3?

Honestly?

If you were coming off a solid block of training over the last 12-18 months and you were knocking out heavy mileage I would say yes but there are a few factors which are probably working against you

- You are coming off a recent month long break followed by a fairly rapid ramp up in training.
- You are coming off on again off again training since you have started posting on this thread due to niggles and injuries followed by aggressive training load increases.
- You are coming off relatively low mileage so i feel endurance will be a factor on a course which is not exactly pancake flat

I don't mean to sound harsh to discourage you but it's not about what you do in the 8 weeks before a marathon that determine if you succeed or fail but realistically you want to have a 6-12 month block of consistent training before you go into marathon training to do yourself justice. You come across as very gun ho and I think if you managed to temper that a little you would see alot less injuries and alot more consistency in your training. Looking at some of the sessions you have knocked out there is no reason why you can't be knocking out 2.50 rather than three with a more sensible approach.

My advice would be to look more long term, run a solid race in Derry, build on it and slowly progress to an Autumn marathon with a consistent build up.

squinn2912

Testosterscone wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

FLat 10k in Dundalk tonight I came in in 38:11. Was a tough disappointed not to break 38 but fairly happy. What you guys think in terms of sub 3?

Honestly?

If you were coming off a solid block of training over the last 12-18 months and you were knocking out heavy mileage I would say yes but there are a few factors which are probably working against you

- You are coming off a recent month long break followed by a fairly rapid ramp up in training.
- You are coming off on again off again training since you have started posting on this thread due to niggles and injuries followed by aggressive training load increases.
- You are coming off relatively low mileage so i feel endurance will be a factor on a course which is not exactly pancake flat

I don't mean to sound harsh to discourage you but it's not about what you do in the 8 weeks before a marathon that determine if you succeed or fail but realistically you want to have a 6-12 month block of consistent training before you go into marathon training to do yourself justice. You come across as very gun ho and I think if you managed to temper that a little you would see alot less injuries and alot more consistency in your training. Looking at some of the sessions you have knocked out there is no reason why you can't be knocking out 2.50 rather than three with a more sensible approach.

My advice would be to look more long term, run a solid race in Derry, build on it and slowly progress to an Autumn marathon with a consistent build up.

You have no need to explain yourself I value your opinion very highly. More often than not your points are making sense and bear out.
I didn’t post a lot about it but early in the year I was slowly building and putting a focus on avoiding injury. I did my half marathon and got injured after getting a green light from the physio. I think more down to illfortune than a gung ho attitude (which is applicable to be fair).
After Missing out last year I have been zealous and regarding Derry I’m more looking forward to seeing the start line than anything else.

My intention is to give it a lash as a bit of a free hit and if I can break the sub3 again I’ll count it very successful. Then I go to the drawing board and get a plan made for me to give Dublin a proper go and we'll see how far I can take it. Flattered you think 2:50 is a realistic aim. I’ll have to go and do it now. Thanks for your advice.

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

FLat 10k in Dundalk tonight I came in in 38:11. Was a tough disappointed not to break 38 but fairly happy. What you guys think in terms of sub 3?

You have nothing to lose,bye going for the sub 3.Would 12/13 seconds quicker in that 10K, to come home in 37:59 make any difference really,come marathon day?.As (test)earlier advised you.Give it a good lash,eash back in to the running,if you have the time then,commit to and Pick a plan for Dublin or wherever,and get the time then,that that training block deserves.Best of luck.Keep us posted.

squinn2912

Lads what’s the thinking on a slow recovery run on a Sunday after the long run on a Saturday? Good thinking or junk miles?

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Lads what’s the thinking on a slow recovery run on a Sunday after the long run on a Saturday? Good thinking or junk miles?

I'm a fan of recovery and easy miles. Most elites would have easy days too, right? I've started doing the LR on Saturdays because of the young fella's football on Sunday morning. Did a little 10k recovery run home today after watching his game.

squinn2912

Yea I seem to do a recovery run every second Sunday. Did 10k today round 8 mm and felt much better for doing it

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea I seem to do a recovery run every second Sunday. Did 10k today round 8 mm and felt much better for doing it

I think that's the definitive answer to your question.

squinn2912

I think you're right. I feel well able to do the recovery run after 18 miles on Saturday but after the 20 I was afraid it would mess up my tempo run. In the scheme of things I feel that one rest day is enough per week.

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think you're right. I feel well able to do the recovery run after 18 miles on Saturday but after the 20 I was afraid it would mess up my tempo run. In the scheme of things I feel that one rest day is enough per week.

When do you do the tempo run?

squinn2912

Tuesday tempo and either Thursday or Friday intervals

Itziger

Wow, I'm barely doing 2 sessions a week. So you do T and Intervals and a Longie. Is there 'stuff' in the long run or is it mostly easy? Apologies if you've explained all this already.

squinn2912

Itziger wrote: »

Wow, I'm barely doing 2 sessions a week. So you do T and Intervals and a Longie. Is there 'stuff' in the long run or is it mostly easy? Apologies if you've explained all this already.

Please don't apologize I'd explain that 100 times!!
Last week was a strange one because I did a 10k race Wed and went for it and then on Fri I did 4 x 1mile intervals at about 6:05 pace for both.
This week on Tuesday I'll do 8 mile tempo at around 6:25 pace and Thursday I'm aiming for 6 x 1 mile at around 6 min miles. For the long run since I've got up to 18 plus miles I'm just doing it at an easy pace around a minute slower than race pace effort.
I'm doing 10k to 8 mile recovery jogs and taking usually 1 day total rest. What you think?

zulutango

I'm out of the 3 hour race for now. I don't think it was ever really on for Limerick, but maybe later in the year I'll manage it. I tugged at a hamstring about 10 days ago (2.5 weeks out from Limerick) and have done nothing since. The hamstring is ok now, but I've picked up a slight cold, so I'm still doing no training! I'm just wondering what the experienced heads here think. If one stops training 2.5 weeks out from a marathon is fitness likely to fall away much. I'll be able to do a few sessions this week I think, but obviously have to be mindful about not expending reserves for the marathon. Any thoughts & advice appreciated!

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Please don't apologize I'd explain that 100 times!!
Last week was a strange one because I did a 10k race Wed and went for it and then on Fri I did 4 x 1mile intervals at about 6:05 pace for both.
This week on Tuesday I'll do 8 mile tempo at around 6:25 pace and Thursday I'm aiming for 6 x 1 mile at around 6 min miles. For the long run since I've got up to 18 plus miles I'm just doing it at an easy pace around a minute slower than race pace effort.
I'm doing 10k to 8 mile recovery jogs and taking usually 1 day total rest. What you think?

Sounds interesting. A fairly different approach to me, but it looks valid and I'm a firm believer in finding what works for each person. I'm not sure I could do Tuesday/Thursday as it would be too close. I am also doing marathon paced miles in my Long Runs these days. I posted on Strava my woes at the weekend, but here goes and blast away anyone who wishes to comment.

After a slightly faster than planned 10 miler on Friday (4.45 kms), I did 32k on Saturday with 3x8k at marathon pace w 2 mins walk/jog recovery between. It proved a bit of a disaster. Had to stop after 4k of the last rep and completed the 8k in 36.18 as opposed to 32.46 and 32.49 for the first two. Compared to this time last year..... where I did 3x8, a 3x9 (with 3 mins rec admittedly) and a 3x8k with 800 steady between. Those sessions, I guess, finally helped me break the sub 3. Now I have upped the pace a bit but Saturday was a reality check alright. I'll give the 3x8 another go, maybe take it a tiny bit slower and see what happens. The other session I do would normally be a little faster, maybe with some HM or Tempo running. No 'speedwork' at all really.

squinn2912

So it seems that your big effort is during the long run? What distances do you do during the week?
I can't work in kms at all! Old fashioned luddite that I am! The saturday looks like a beast of a session anyhow.

busterjones

Hi...may not be a straight forward question but how do you know that you have enough base training done?

I'm training for this year's DCB and targeting sub 3 hours (PR was in Dublin in 2016 @ 3:11) - trained hard for that but not very smart - weekly mileage was too low - max was 35 miles and relied too much on 4 x 20 milers at a hard pace - meant that I was tired on the day and also really felt the last 6 miles on the day.

This year have started training in January and have averaged 42 miles per week since then, 680 miles in total over 15 weeks, max being 65 miles last week.

Pace/ progression-wise, since January, I started at approx. 8 min miles for 10 miles as my best but did a 16 miler last week averaging 6:50 (was a MP pyramid (5, 4, 3, 2, 1 @ less than MP) and included slower jogging in between - covered first 13.1 miles in 1:26, including 2 x jogged sections.

Generally have been training for mileage although generally would vary pace running 10 miles as standard runs e.g. 6:30 is best as average and during the week I'd do another at 7ish and 7.30 - keeping heart rate in aeroboic zone on the garmin, as recovery runs.

My question is now - where best to go to from here - and I guess that its to move to something more structured e.g. a speed session, a LSR, a tempo and then 3 x recovery runs (e.g. 10 miles) - with mileage of approx. 50 per week?

Thanks

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

So it seems that your big effort is during the long run? What distances do you do during the week?
I can't work in kms at all! Old fashioned luddite that I am! The saturday looks like a beast of a session anyhow.

Yeah, my long run usually is a tough session as I get nearer target marathon. I only do one other Quality run a week though. All else is easy give or take a few seconds. Last couple of weeks I'm up about 65 miles and hope to continue that for another 3 or 4 weeks now. There are a few ways to skin this marathon cat. Just not as many as the marathon has for skinning us

Itziger

Talking of luddites! Fuppin phone.

squinn2912

Itziger wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

So it seems that your big effort is during the long run? What distances do you do during the week?
I can't work in kms at all! Old fashioned luddite that I am! The saturday looks like a beast of a session anyhow.

Yeah, my long run usually is a tough session as I get nearer target marathon. I only do one other Quality run a week though. All else is easy give or take a few seconds. Last couple of weeks I'm up about 65 miles and hope to continue that for another 3 or 4 weeks now. There are a few ways to skin this marathon cat. Just not as many as the marathon has for skinning us

Yea I guess we all find the way that suits us best. If you can train away avoiding injury then you’re doing ok

kerrylad1

zulutango wrote: »

I'm out of the 3 hour race for now. I don't think it was ever really on for Limerick, but maybe later in the year I'll manage it. I tugged at a hamstring about 10 days ago (2.5 weeks out from Limerick) and have done nothing since. The hamstring is ok now, but I've picked up a slight cold, so I'm still doing no training! I'm just wondering what the experienced heads here think. If one stops training 2.5 weeks out from a marathon is fitness likely to fall away much. I'll be able to do a few sessions this week I think, but obviously have to be mindful about not expending reserves for the marathon. Any thoughts & advice appreciated!

You would not have lost too much fitness with 10 days off.I didn't run one year for the 8 days leading up to a marathon,and it went fine.Do not do anything crazy this week.Try 7 miles today,with 3 at MP.Rest of the week then,I would just jog,6,5 and 5 milers,at a nice easy pace.Rest Saturday.Best of luck.

zulutango

Thanks KL, I'll follow that advice. Not much more to be done now. Looking forward to Sunday regardless of the hiccups in the preparation. How are you set?

kerrylad1

zulutango wrote: »

Thanks KL, I'll follow that advice. Not much more to be done now. Looking forward to Sunday regardless of the hiccups in the preparation. How are you set?

Not sure to be honest,did that 7 miles,with 3 at MP at 6am,on the treadmill.Snorting and grunting like a pig on the MP section,the baby monitor showed 22d in the room,so sweated Bucket's aswell.Hope that heat predicted for Sunday,stay's away till Sunday afternoon.I will give it a lash anyway.we will see you Sunday,before the gun goes.

squinn2912

No bother to you lads! I read a bit 2 years ago from Sean Heihir about marathon taper week and he does something similar or intervals at marathon pace 3x1 mile in a 7/8 mile run. He said you're always wondering how the hell you can do that for 26 miles but then on the day it still will come together! All the best, smash it!

thomas anderson.

Been a lurker here for a while and thanks to all for the sound advice posted here, I got my first sub 3 today.

Sound

healy1835

Reloaded after a fuelling disaster 3:14 in Rotterdam, 2:59:45 in Limerick today......A great feeling.

sideswipe

healy1835 wrote: »

Reloaded after a fuelling disaster 3:14 in Rotterdam, 2:59:45 in Limerick today......A great feeling.

Well done! Enjoy the celebrations.
In similar situation after London- what kind of training did you do in between?

healy1835

sideswipe wrote: »

Well done! Enjoy the celebrations.
In similar situation after London- what kind of training did you do in between?

Hey, I'll post something a bit more substantial in the next couple of days, but basically easy miles for the first week, building up to 10 miler that weekend. 30k LR the Friday of the 2nd week. A 5mile 'tempo' at faster than MP. A 24k MLR 10 days out, and a 5x1mile session last Sunday, working from 6min miles down to 5:45. This was the key one for me.....started to feel like I could do it after this run.

Itziger

thomas anderson. wrote: »

Been a lurker here for a while and thanks to all for the sound advice posted here, I got my first sub 3 today.

Sound

Thomàs, We'll be looking for a bit more of an in-depth report than that! Even splits? Any mini-crisis? Strong last 10k????

squinn2912

First “taste” of marathon day in 18 months. Did the 3rd leg in Belfast. 4 uphill 2 downhill and then another mixed bag. 7.25 miles averaging 6:10 per mile. Happy enough