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Leap card misuse- fine!

Msrebeckyxo

Hi! So today I was getting a train from heuston to portlaoise. I was getting off in newbridge which is new for me as I normally get off at sallins however I was meeting my mam.
So a ticket inspector got on and asked for a ticket and I proceeded to tell him I had my leap card etc, he went on to tell me that I needed a ticket as there is no leap card validator in Newbridge. I told him I was unaware of this etc as there’s one in sallins which is 5 mins Before newbridge, and there’s no posters or advertisements to say otherwise. I
I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.
I commute from Clane to and from Killester 4 days a week, so use the luas, Dublin bus and the dart most days. Irish rail is used probably in a blue moon, think last time I used it was 3 weeks ago. But I’m very good at tapping on and off etc which they can view in my receipts.
I’ve sent an email to appeal but what do you think will be the outcome? Just can’t really understand why I’ve been fined as I did tap on, I paid my fare, just didn’t understand that there wouldn’t be a validator!
Thanks

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emeldc

liger wrote: »

That reminds me of the time i went to the self service checkout in the supermarket, I Accidentally only scanned 4 of my 7 items and they got all annoyed and said I was stealing... like a total overreaction, I paid for SOME of the shopping.

Also most people have Google in their pocket. took me 15seconds to see Newbridge wasn't a valid stop for you.

If you were a tourist using roaming data, that 15secs might cost you 20 quid. Just sayin'

Bob24

OSI wrote: »

"The Authority" doesn't exclusively refer to the NTA, it also includes the agents or in this case an Irish Rail inspector:

The definition section clearly states that the “Authority” is only the NTA and also defines other types of partners/agents separately:

1.5 For the purposes of these Terms and Conditions:

(b) The "Authority" means the National Transport Authority.

(l) "Service Provider" shall mean any party approved by the Authority which allows access to its services when a Leap Card is presented, including but not limited to any participating Transport Operator. These Service Providers can be identified by the Leap Card logo on display.

(o) "Transport Operator" means a public transport operator as defined in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008.

I’d agree the introduction you quoted is poorly written and could mean something else depending on interpretation, but I think if it was to come down to a legal interpretation the definition section which clearly excludes Irish Rail (or any other transport provider) from what is referred to as “the Authority” in the T&Cs is what would apply. And it would make sense, the NTA needs to be able to reffer only to itself as a legal entity in the contract as there are many cases what its responsibilities are not overlapping with the ones it’s agents.

So in short I still don’t see how those T&Cs give an Irish Rail staff any authority to confiscate a Leap Carp on a train (nor do I see why they should have that authority, they are just a user of the leap card service and not its operator, if there is an issue the correct process shouldn’t be to flag that leap card to the NTA and let them deal with it).

schemingbohemia

Bob24 wrote: »

It is a simple matter of organisation for Irish Rail and there is no need for human ticket checkers.

Either they decide that leap card payment will be accepted at all stations for a given line. Or they decide it won’t be accepted at any station; and if that line goes through stations which have a mix of leap card service and non-leap card service, they need to have two separate areas in those stations (one with leap card validators and on with national lines ticket validators).

No rocket science and the way it is done in most countries I have been to.

I'm struggling to understand this, can you direct me to examples of where this happens?

[Deleted User]

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

Im not sure if you understand this, but it is your obligation to have a valid ticket for your journey. It is not IE's obligation to educate everyone who might travel with them, etc. So i can have sympathy for you, but no mistake was made in this case. IE have applied the rules correctly. you should pay the fixed fare and accept that you failed to produce a valid ticket.

It bloody well is their obligation. You could argue that by publishing the fares structures etc online that they are fulfilling that obligation, but that is still their duty.

KyussB

In the North you just buy the fucking ticket on the train, instead of this nonsense.

We're talking about a leap card here, so the solution is really simple: Give inspectors a Leap Card reader which can increase the leap fare charge, to match what the ticket would have cost - and failing that, just sell the person the bloody ticket there and then.

The only reason to issue fines in situations like this, is to deliberately fúck people and antagonize them - despite that being a long-term money loser, because it's going to make people stop using the service when they're screwed around like that.

Charles Babbage

Any organisation supposedly catering to the public should not create "gotcha" situations, as nothing pisses off a customer more than being treated as a cheat because of unclear information.
The solution would seem to be to have Leap tag offs at all relevant stations or else require people to buy a ticket using their Leap card and have a singe mechanism of platform access.

Msrebeckyxo

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Any organisation supposedly catering to the public should not create "gotcha" situations, as nothing pisses off a customer more than being treated as a cheat because of unclear information.
The solution would seem to be to have Leap tag offs at all relevant stations or else require people to buy a ticket using their Leap card and have a singe mechanism of platform access.

Yeah to be honest, think that’s the end of me using Irish rail, just thought I was made a bit of a fool out of yesterday. Fair enough I was in the wrong by not having a valid ticket but had my leap card but I just felt like I was being accused of lying/ trying to cheat the system, etc. I don’t have an awful lot of money as a student but I would never ever ever, get on public transport and not pay my way!

Bob24

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'm struggling to understand this, can you direct me to examples of where this happens?

First one which comes to mind as I've gone through it quite a few times is Gare de Lyon in Paris.

You have one area with platforms for RER (suburb trains similar to DART and commuter) and another area for national lines, each with their own set of ticket validation machines.

If you use a local Paris public transport card (equivalent to Leap Card) you will only be able to validate from the machines which give you access to the suburb trains area, and any train you get from there will for sure only serve stations which have similar ticket machine when you get off.

If you go to the main lines area it is clear you can't validate your Leap Card equivalent there, and that if you want to get any of those trains your need to buy a different type of ticket which fits in those different validation machines.

No confusion or possible mistake, while having trains which require two different ticket types in the same station.

HonalD

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Any organisation supposedly catering to the public should not create "gotcha" situations, as nothing pisses off a customer more than being treated as a cheat because of unclear information.
The solution would seem to be to have Leap tag offs at all relevant stations or else require people to buy a ticket using their Leap card and have a singe mechanism of platform access.

Yeah to be honest, think that’s the end of me using Irish rail, just thought I was made a bit of a fool out of yesterday. Fair enough I was in the wrong by not having a valid ticket but had my leap card but I just felt like I was being accused of lying/ trying to cheat the system, etc. I don’t have an awful lot of money as a student but I would never ever ever, get on public transport and not pay my way!

Does breaking the rules not equal cheating the system? And clearly if you were on a train going to Newbridge without a valid fare paid I.e. you did not have a valid ticket for your journey then you were not paying your way.

Sorry to burst the sympathy bubble but you were wrong, you were caught in the wrong so that should be the end of it. Unless you think the opposite?

KyussB

Cheating the system is when you have intent - not when some ballbag inspector decides to be a pedant and stiff you, when there's the perfectly valid option of just allowing you to pay for the rest of the fare.

HonalD

KyussB wrote: »

Cheating the system is when you have intent - not when some ballbag inspector decides to be a pedant and stiff you, when there's the perfectly valid option of just allowing you to pay for the rest of the fare.

So breaking the rules is not cheating?

The “perfectly valid option” would be for the OP to understand the rules before using the service.

Why don’t we all just make up the rules as we go along?

Msrebeckyxo

HonalD wrote: »

Does breaking the rules not equal cheating the system? And clearly if you were on a train going to Newbridge without a valid fare paid I.e. you did not have a valid ticket for your journey then you were not paying your way.

Sorry to burst the sympathy bubble but you were wrong, you were caught in the wrong so that should be the end of it. Unless you think the opposite?

As I mentioned in the post that you quoted, I admitted I was in the wrong.
The thing that I and many others have said in this forum is that it’s unfair due to the fact that leap card works in sallins which is 7km from newbridge, if it works in one station on the line it should work in the other stations on the line.
And as it was a genuine mistake and I always pay my way, I asked to pay the 12.50 fare to the inspector which was refused.
Thanks

myshirt

What you have to realise is that of all the organisations that don't give a flying f#ck, it's this one. If you were on the verge of being killed and all it took to save your life was them giving a f*ck, and they had a bag of them, they wouldn't give you one.

The baby boomer public servant generation have absolutely rode the heart and soul out of the youth. Against this backdrop, and a general public that are indifferent to public sector waste and the neck they have, sher what chance have you?

TallGlass

OSI wrote: »

Not the OP's property

Not exactly my point, the point I am making is, there looks to me to be no provision in law to allow a inspector to seize a leap card from a person. Or seize anything at all.

From the T&C, even if legal. A Leap card can be seized if you fail to use it?

There rules seem a bit mind boggling, how do you go about getting it back?

FYI, the inspector can ask you pay the far, it's an and/or situation from the law/act, IR choose to implement the full and/or situation.

[Deleted User]

I just think it's fantastic how long the Leap Card has been around and a publicly owned transport company doesn't fully support it. Private companies have been able to do it for years at this stage.

Bruthal

liger wrote: »

That reminds me of the time i went to the self service checkout in the supermarket, I Accidentally only scanned 4 of my 7 items and they got all annoyed and said I was stealing... like a total overreaction, I paid for SOME of the shopping.

Also most people have Google in their pocket. took me 15seconds to see Newbridge wasn't a valid stop for you.

15 seconds? How long to find out how shopping works?

wally79

How is an inspector supposed to tell the difference on the spot between an honest mistake and a deliberate fare evasion.

They have to apply the rules consistently or not at all

Msrebeckyxo

wally79 wrote: »

How is an inspector supposed to tell the difference on the spot between an honest mistake and a deliberate fare evasion.

They have to apply the rules consistently or not at all

That’s true! However considering my card was tapped on, I did pay a fare so it wasn’t like I hopped on the train and hoped for the best that an inspector wouldn’t catch me if you get me! But I don’t blame the inspector, he did his job. Just thought it was handled wrongly, and I offered to pay the 12.50 fare !

Sephiroth_dude

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

That’s true! However considering my card was tapped on, I did pay a fare so it wasn’t like I hopped on the train and hoped for the best that an inspector wouldn’t catch me if you get me! But I don’t blame the inspector, he did his job. Just thought it was handled wrongly, and I offered to pay the 12.50 fare !

Jesus what a miser!

beertons

The difference a bit of cop on with the inspectors. Happened me in London, I had gone outside zone 1&2 to zone 3. Explained this to a guy, admitting it was probably why I couldn't beep through an area. The fine was £40 at the time. Like you, I said I had no problem paying.

Cop on is a bit of a luxury these days, not many have it.

Bob24

beertons wrote: »

The difference a bit of cop on with the inspectors. Happened me in London, I had gone outside zone 1&2 to zone 3. Explained this to a guy, admitting it was probably why I couldn't beep through an area. The fine was £40 at the time. Like you, I said I had no problem paying.

Cop on is a bit of a luxury these days, not many have it.

It's a bit different in your case though. The problem is that you had a prepaid ticket for specific zones and went outside those zones (as an honest mistake but it was probably very clear when you bought your ticket that it was for specific zones and I assume there are many maps with the zones at the stations and on the trains).

The OP didn't have a zoned ticket. That tagged-in for an open journey using a ticketing system which charges based on distance when you tag-off; and the reason they were fined is that the station they were planning to get-off at doesn't have the facilities to tag-off and apply the appropriate fare (plus the fact that only some station are supported is not explained clearly when you buy/top-up your card and there is no map anywhere in the stations or on the trains which clearly says what stations can be accessed with a Leap Card).

Again it doesn't change the fact that they made a mistake and did break the rule, but still it is an occurence of a ticket validation system being very poorly implemented.

NinjaTruncs

Had you passed Sallins when the inspector got you? If not argue you were in receipt of a valid ticket. The inspector should really have told you to get off at Sallins where you would have needed to buy a new ticket.

Msrebeckyxo

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Had you passed Sallins when the inspector got you? If not argue you were in receipt of a valid ticket. The inspector should really have told you to get off at Sallins where you would have needed to buy a new ticket.

Just my luck, they got on in sallins and literally spoke to me/wrote my fine as I was getting off, put my signature on the fine as the train stopped in newbridge

flatty

wally79 wrote: »

How is an inspector supposed to tell the difference on the spot between an honest mistake and a deliberate fare evasion.

They have to apply the rules consistently or not at all

They don't though. I've seen them completely avoid any dodgy looking lads. They are not at all consistent. The inspector was heavy handed here, could easily have been more understanding, and was, well, a bollox.

Squatter

Deleted User wrote: »

I just think it's fantastic how long the Leap Card has been around and a publicly owned transport company doesn't fully support it. Private companies have been able to do it for years at this stage.

True - I used my Ryanair ticket from Dublin to London to fly to Athens recently and the stewardess just smiled sweetly at me as I disembarked. :rolleyes:

dudara

It sounds like you made a genuine mistake. There is no harm in trying to apppeal your case.

I would write a registered letter pleading my case to the Fines Office, including all relevant details. I would also share copies of all tickets you have had to purchase since your Leap card was confiscated and ask for a refund, based on the value of the balance on your Leap card.

Print out your Leap card history which should show a regular pattern of travel to sallins. This will support your claim.

nxbyveromdwjpg

wally79 wrote: »

How is an inspector supposed to tell the difference on the spot between an honest mistake and a deliberate fare evasion.

They have to apply the rules consistently or not at all

By using their common sense and discretion?

cython

Bob24 wrote: »

It's a bit different in your case though. The problem is that you had a prepaid ticket for specific zones and went outside those zones (as an honest mistake but it was probably very clear when you bought your ticket that it was for specific zones and I assumes there are many maps with the zones at the stations and on the trains).

The OP didn't have a zoned ticket. That tagged-in for an open journey using a ticketing system which charges based on distance when you tag-off; and the reason they were fined is that the station they were planning to get-off at doesn't have the facilities to tag-off and apply the appropriate fare (which is not explained clearly when you buy/top-up your card and there is no map anywhere in the stations or on the trains which clearly says what stations can be accessed with a Leap Card).

Again it doesn't change the fact that they made a mistake and did break the rule, but still it is an occurence of a ticket validation system being very poorly implemented.

At the risk of being pedantic, when you tag off you are actually refunded the balance (in essence given change) of €4.90 (for an adult, not sure about student leap as in the OP's case, but the logic is still the same) in order to have paid the appropriate fare. The max fare for the short hop zone seems to be €4.75, so failing to tag off within the zone means an automatic loss of €0.15 at a minimum.

That being said, it sounds as though the fare to Newbridge is well above the leap card initial charge, so were someone to regularly chance their arm with using a leap card and overshooting the zone by one stop (and not suggesting the OP is in this position!), there would be money to be saved assuming they avoided inspectors/RPU for long enough.

BarryD2

HonalD wrote: »

Does breaking the rules not equal cheating the system? And clearly if you were on a train going to Newbridge without a valid fare paid I.e. you did not have a valid ticket for your journey then you were not paying your way.

Sorry to burst the sympathy bubble but you were wrong, you were caught in the wrong so that should be the end of it. Unless you think the opposite?

Ah would you get outa that. She travelled an extra 10 minutes or so on a train, between two commuter towns on the outskirts of Dublin, thinking she was covered by the card which is supposed to be for general public transport. Which according to their website: 'Leap Card is a convenient way to pay for public transport services in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford.'

She's a legitimate fare paying passenger who makes a small mistake over the boundaries that IR set on the scheme.

Any reasonable business that relies on customer satisfaction would have a way of managing this without pissing off legitimate fare paying passengers. And God knows, there's enough free loaders on exemptions that don't pay a cent.

devnull

KyussB wrote: »

We're talking about a leap card here, so the solution is really simple: Give inspectors a Leap Card reader which can increase the leap fare charge, to match what the ticket would have cost - and failing that, just sell the person the bloody ticket there and then.

That process would send fare evasion through the roof, because it encourages people to travel without a valid ticket as they know if caught by an inspector they will not be fined and can just buy a ticket for the same price from the inspector.

If there is no inspector, they simply would not pay and since you've removed any risk of a fine for not paying and gave every offender out their a get out clause of buying a ticket when challenged then everyone may as well do it because worst case scenario is they'd be no worse off.