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Brexit discussion thread III

ancapailldorcha

This thread is for discussing the departure of the UK from the EU. I will move some posts over shortly.

New posters, please read the forum charter before posting.

Regards,

The Politics Mods.

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Nody

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Barnier has already signalled that the Single Market is still open until 2020, all they have to do is change their minds.

But the extended time to 2020 is assuming that they sign the agreement in the first place; if they refuse to sign the existing document on the phase 1 discussion (including the NI remaining in alignment etc. which is the major issue there which they have not agreed to how it is documented today) there is no extension to 2020. Hence the actual deadline is coming up in October for the dotted line to be signed (anything after October is unlikely to be ratified in time); if not it's a hard crash out come March 30th 2019.

Capt'n Midnight

https://twitter.com/seanwhelanRTE/status/987268183005519872/photo/1

Shipping and ports here are are preparing for Brexit. As the infrastructure comes it will mean less traffic through the UK.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0420/955953-dublin-port/

The MV Celine is the world's largest short sea Ro-Ro ship and will transport freight between Dublin and the continent.

The vessel is 235m long and has a capacity of 8km.

Such is the scale of the ship it would not have been able to dock in Dublin prior to the completion of recent expansion works.

...
He also said Dublin Port will build the necessary custom posts and inspection facilities at the port to allow for customs checks in the event of a hard border.

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

So why create the red lines in the 1st place? Surely setting out the stall from the very start on such a basis was asking for trouble?

What other negotiations do people enter with such closed minds, and publicly touting them as well.

Of course it is but had Cameron that sort of foresight we wouldn't be in this mess.

LuckyLloyd

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. It's very striking that the article so openly blends reportage of an exclusive story, and editorial comment on its implications - and that in a page 1 lead. In the good old days a newspaper with pretensions to quality like the Telegraph was careful to distinguish factual news reportage from the opinions of a columnist, or even the opinions of the editor. Mixing them like this is extraordinary.

Absolutely stunning. I was actually shocked scrolling across on press reader when the tone changed to opinion / editorial comment with no forewarning.

Sam Russell

The whole Telegraph story has be denied by the EU and by the Irish Gov - fake news.

Econ_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Absolutely stunning. I was actually shocked scrolling across on press reader when the tone changed to opinion / editorial comment with no forewarning.

The particular journalist that reported the story, Peter Foster, is a bit of an outlier in the Telegraph in the sense that he's slightly more willing to speak his mind.

I listened to the Telegraph's Brexit podcast last week and he was on it. While I wouldn't say he rocked the pro-Brexit boat, he had a less than enthusiastic tone about the whole process and certainly wasn't afraid to criticise the government. He wanted to talk about the insurmountable realities while the others preferred to talk around them so as not to confront the obvious - that Brexit is a load of Bollocks.

But apparently most journalists at Pro-Brexit newspapers don't believe in Brexit. See this from the FT.

A colleague at one big Brexit-supporting newspaper told me “95 per cent” of its journalists oppose Brexit. Another friend puts the figure at his pro-Brexit paper at “80 to 90 per cent”. He tries to switch his mind off Brexit. At least Remoaners like me believe the stuff we write, pointless as it is.

https://www.ft.com/content/2ceb393e-3213-11e8-ac48-10c6fdc22f03?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6

James O'Brien, who is a very well connected journalist, backs this up.

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/980008320588185600

The right wing press in Britain is literally a Brexit propaganda machine. There will be investigations in years to come as to how this was allowed to happen.

sink

Brexit is 'The Emperor's New Clothes' manifest.

LeinsterDub

Leroy42 wrote: »

So why create the red lines in the 1st place? Surely setting out the stall from the very start on such a basis was asking for trouble?

What other negotiations do people enter with such closed minds, and publicly touting them as well.

It wasn't setting out their stall that was asking for trouble it was setting out a stall of mutually exclusive issues that was asking for trouble.

Capt'n Midnight

Not news unless you live in the UK , rinse and repeat.

Why Brussels seems relaxed about the end game

"Besides which," he added with a glint in his eye, "we know the Brexit drill by now.

"The UK makes a fuss, tells us things are unacceptable - like the financial settlement (the so-called Brexit bill), and like allowing EU citizens the right to stay permanently in the UK, even if they only move there in the transition period after Brexit - but the British Government gives in, in the end. Even if they dress up the fact to make it more acceptable at home."

Sand

Econ_ wrote: »

By the way, I don’t think there’s any real prospect of the U.K. crashing out. I don’t think parliament will let it happen

There is a very real prospect of the UK crashing out. The UK ruling class is utterly complacent, even now, 5 months to the realistic deadline, with no practical solution to the Irish border. Which they wilfully ignored until 4 months ago.

If they don't find a solution by erasing some of their red lines, there is no deal and there is no transition period to 2021. There is a brutal, sharp Brexit which only the most fanatical and savage ideologues could wish for.

EdgeCase

Well, considering that there was a called on LBC suggesting that we either re-join the UK or face a prospect of being compulsorily microchipped, there are definitely a few very hardliners out there...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-microchipping-irish-border-brexit/

I'm just posting this as a bit of an illustration of the level of incredibly ill-informed debate that's going on in certain circles.

Capt'n Midnight

EdgeCase wrote: »

Well, considering that there was a called on LBC suggesting that we either re-join the UK or face a prospect of being compulsorily microchipped, there are definitely a few very hardliners out there...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-microchipping-irish-border-brexit/

I'm just posting this as a bit of an illustration of the level of incredibly ill-informed debate that's going on in certain circles.

Edwina Currie was on Newstalk earlier going on about how the border could be solved by registering companies and doing spot checks on the odd white van. And using CCTV and facial recognition of vehicle occupants and stuff.

I've posted before about how gross fuel imports in to NI fell by IIRC 40% because so much was smuggled / laundered. That's an industrial scale that couldn't be done with white vans.

She also went on about being able to sell the magic frictionless border technology elsewhere. See any of my posts about UK IT projects to see how likely I think anything like that will be on-time, on-budget. Here's a clue - we still don't know the terms so the goal posts and specs are still moving.

There's a lot of people , at best , believing each others lies.

Hurrache

She's been pushing that line of a soft border, easily managed, with no issues around it for quite some time now on Pat Kenny. That debate gets quite fractious at times.

And there was a guy on News at 1, missed the start so didn't catch who it was, getting very annoyed at the suggestion at a hard border saying if there are customs posts it won't be the British putting them there.

Edit, Bernard Jenkin it was
https://twitter.com/RTENewsAtOne/status/987300796101484545?s=19

https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/987316849493803008?s=19

Econ_

Sand wrote: »

There is a very real prospect of the UK crashing out. The UK ruling class is utterly complacent, even now, 5 months to the realistic deadline, with no practical solution to the Irish border. Which they wilfully ignored until 4 months ago.

If they don't find a solution by erasing some of their red lines, there is no deal and there is no transition period to 2021. There is a brutal, sharp Brexit which only the most fanatical and savage ideologues could wish for.

The government is incompetent but not completely stupid - most would know that no deal would wreck their reputation and career. In other words they are likely to agree to just about anything to avoid it.

Secondly, the point I actually made in my post which you failed to rebut, is that even in the very unlikely event that the government does end up wilfully leading the country into a no deal in March 2019 - Parliament can force the government to take another path.

So in reality, when you actually examine what needs to happen for a no deal in March 2019 to occur - the prospect is remote.

Hurrache wrote: »

She's been pushing that line of a soft border, easily managed, with no issues around it for quite some time now on Pat Kenny. That debate gets quite fractious at times.

And there was a guy on News at 1, missed the start so didn't catch who it was, getting very annoyed at the suggestion at a hard border saying if there are customs posts it won't be the British putting them there.

Edit, Bernard Jenkin it was
https://twitter.com/RTENewsAtOne/status/987300796101484545?s=19

https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/987316849493803008?s=19

If the interviewer knew his stuff - he would have put it to him that the UK would be legally required under WTO rules to apply a hard border if NI were to have different customs arrangements. He would have also have challenged the notion that the US-Canada border is largely frictionless - bull****.

Never invite a Brexiteer on unless you know your stuff - they are very skilful liars and Jenkins took that interviewer to the cleaners there quite frankly.

An Ciarraioch

The Guardian assess the negotiations and conclude that the only logical endgame is the UK remaining in some form of customs union:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/20/guardian-view-brexit-irish-border-alchemy-fails

Nody

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The Guardian assess the negotiations and conclude that the only logical endgame is the UK remaining in some form of customs union:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/20/guardian-view-brexit-irish-border-alchemy-fails

The CU is not enough because:

EU Referendum blog wrote:

Article 26(2) gives them the definition of the "internal market" (aka Single Market), which "shall comprise an area without internal frontiers in which the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital is ensured in accordance with the provisions of the Treaties".

Hence joining a CU is not same as what is contractually required for NI which is a frictionless border; to be part of the Single Market UK has to be part of EU and accept the four freedoms which is why a CU is not enough (Turkey is a CU and that's not frictionless by any imagination). That is why I keep saying that UK will not sign the papers or get an extension and end up with an accidental crash out. And no the parliament will not be able to change that because the Government will not call a new election and between Tory, DUP and Labour brexiteers there is not going to be enough support to magically push through a cancellation of article 50; even if they somehow did the Tories can simply keep stalling long enough (remember those 66 Tory MPs who are all for brexit) to stop it. Now if even that somehow would be overcome by a sudden metric ton of reality checks suddenly happening out of the blue we'd still face the issue that not only would people scream about democracy not followed etc. but the core issue of the decades of lies and the "paradise of free trade and streets of milk and honey without brown people" would still be in play ensuring a new brexit vote would happen and we'd start it all over again.

On a separate note I highly recommend this blog post which clearly goes through how wrong the whole UK press and establishment has got the whole point on the CU etc. and why the likely answer is a crash out at this stage.

FreudianSlippers

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course it is but had Cameron that sort of foresight we wouldn't be in this mess.

No gifs in the politics forum, but I wish there was an exception here where I could post him whistling whilst walking away from the job. It's just spot on.

An Claidheamh

Econ_ wrote: »

The government is incompetent but not completely stupid - most would know that no deal would wreck their reputation and career. In other words they are likely to agree to just about anything to avoid it.

Secondly, the point I actually made in my post which you failed to rebut, is that even in the very unlikely event that the government does end up wilfully leading the country into a no deal in March 2019 - Parliament can force the government to take another path.

So in reality, when you actually examine what needs to happen for a no deal in March 2019 to occur - the prospect is remote.

If the interviewer knew his stuff - he would have put it to him that the UK would be legally required under WTO rules to apply a hard border if NI were to have different customs arrangements. He would have also have challenged the notion that the US-Canada border is largely frictionless - bull****.

Never invite a Brexiteer on unless you know your stuff - they are very skilful liars and Jenkins took that interviewer to the cleaners there quite frankly.

Yesterday people texted into newstalk to give out to Ivan Yates about his interview with that lady, that he did not challenge her nonsense at all.

Newstalk and RtÉ either don't challenge, criticise or ask pertinent questions of Brexiteers out of fear they won’t come on again, incompetence or more likely an inferiority complex.

O'Rourke with Adam Boulton was poor aswell.

Hurrache

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Newstalk and RtÉ either don't challenge, criticise or ask pertinent questions of Brexiteers

They very much do, there's regularly testy debates across the afternoon shows on both channels, Kenny always very critical of them. As I said a few posts ago, his regular spots with Edwina Curry a case in point.

Suggesting it's because of an inferiority complex is a bizzare comment to make.

CrabRevolution

The Irish media have been pretty good on the Brexit situation I've found. The whole inferiority complex thing is mostly gone.

As with our politicians, for years there was a fear of even being seen to have a negative opinion of something the UK was doing. All the talk had to be about how they're our best friends and all in this together. If you didn't follow this narrative, you risked being associated with Sinn Féin, or going further back, the IRA.

The UK knew this too, and if a Taoiseach wasn't cooperating with them, their press and politicians weren't averse to insinuating the Taoiseach was backing Sinn Féin and/or the IRA.

The EU helped the "the UK is not to be criticised" idea, as now we were in the same club, had closely integrated economies, no border checks etc. It made it easier to say we're all on the same page.

But now that brexit is here and is going to be a total disaster for Ireland, the shackles are off and our politicians and journalists are free to call the UKs actions out for what they are.

Brexit has cleaved the connection between standing up for Ireland and militant republicanism. There is now nothing to lose for any politician or journalist who criticises such terrible decisions by the UK government.

If anything it has greatly helped Varadkar and FGs standing in Ireland that they're taking what would traditionally be a dangerously "republican" line and not rolling over for the UK. When various British press and politicians dusted off the old "The Irish government is obviously acting under the orders of Sinn Féin" line hoping to spook them and get a reaction, it was instead greeted with derision in Ireland.

CelticRambler

John Redwood was on RTE at lunchtime spouting the same old nonsense "we won't be putting up a border ... technology will solve any problems ... the EU needs us more than we need them". They brought in a professor of (?)international law to talk about the implications of a country not establishing its own border controls when trading under WTO rules, but his contribution was a bit too high-brow and technical to be useful as a counter-argument to Redwood's airyfairyness.

As the road to Brexit runs out, I get the impression that contributors to this kind of discussion have got to the point where they just don't see the point of trying to contradict the disillusions of the Leave spokespeople. In any case, the latter definitely overestimate how much we continentals care about Brexit. Were it not for the fact that I'm Irish and read boards.ie, I wouldn't hear anything about it from one summit meeting to the next. As far as the French are concerned, Brexit has already happened; it's not news any more; and I imagine the rest of the EU - other than Ireland - has pretty much the same attitude.

This is one of the reasons why I don't think the Brexit bubble will "burst" as predicted by some, but will "deflate" slowly over several years, leaving just a sticky mess that takes ages to clear up. The sportswear manufacturer, cited earlier, is a good example of how things will start but this is obviously a cherry-picked case: a small business with a very significant EU market, and an owner who has made an effort to understand the implications of leaving the EU.

But beyond that, what will be the direct effect on restaurants, high-street retailers, public service employers, the construction industry, the tourist industry, etc? The employees of these businesses, catering to primarily to the British in Britain, are not going to be hit immediately by price rises or sudden shortages of stock, even if they're wrapped up in whatever mess of a transitional arrangement comes into effect.

It'll be the insidious damage of businesses - like the sportsware manufacturer - realising that the sums don't add up any more and either move staff and production (back) to the EU or just close down, that will slowly drain the economy of its vitality, and lead to the infamous lost decade. Such a slow rate of decay will be very hard to pin directly on Brexit, making it difficult to argue in favour of re-joining the EU, unless and until there's a huge gulf between the UK and the rest of the continent.

I'm fairly confident we'll see a United Ireland (as a result of Brexit) before we see England back in the EU.

An Ciarraioch

Won't have any impact on the general Brexit dynamic, but still interesting to note the decision today of the Welsh First Minister to resign:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/21/carwyn-jones-to-step-down-as-first-minister-of-wales

An Ciarraioch

Nissan to cut hundreds of jobs in Sunderland - the same plant where May met the executives during the election campaign last year:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

Bit cynical

Econ_ wrote: »

The government is incompetent but not completely stupid - most would know that no deal would wreck their reputation and career. In other words they are likely to agree to just about anything to avoid it.

Theresa May probably want a deal. Others like John Redwood want a clean break from the EU and its institutions. The EU's hard line suits Redwood's agenda.

flatty

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Won't have any impact on the general Brexit dynamic, but still interesting to note the decision today of the Welsh First Minister to resign:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/21/carwyn-jones-to-step-down-as-first-minister-of-wales

Why so?

Econ_

As I was arguing yesterday...

MPs will be able to force Theresa May to accept a fresh referendum on Brexit in a showdown vote as early as the autumn, a minister has conceded.

In a surprise admission, Steve Baker said the crucial vote on the exit deal would not – as expected – be a “take-it-or-leave-it” choice, because “parliament can always seek to amend motions”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-eu-vote-theresa-may-mps-minister-steve-baker-a8313111.html

Capt'n Midnight

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Nissan to cut hundreds of jobs in Sunderland - the same plant where May met the executives during the election campaign last year:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

Also last week, Vauxhall said it was terminating the contracts of all its 326 dealerships in Britain – which employ 12,000 people – amid falling sales, including diesel cars, although it said it did not expect heavy job losses from the move.

Jaguar Land Rover to cut 1,000 UK jobs as Brexit hits the motor industry

This picture from https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/brexit-bulletin-job-cuts-come-to-car-country shows why the UK needs to be in a customs union. When you factor in that the car industry is based on just-in-time then they have to be in The Customs Union.

Nody

Econ_ wrote: »

As I was arguing yesterday...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-eu-vote-theresa-may-mps-minister-steve-baker-a8313111.html

And such a vote would still have zero meaning because:

1) It's not legally binding (and don't expect the parties to be stupid enough to commit to it this time around)
2) They can stall the vote to when it does no longer matter
3) Without a change of government party there is still nothing stopping Brexit since 66 Tory MPs can fire any PM who does not push for a Brexit in practice
4) And the real killer of the deal; the Brexiteers only need to stall out the practice until after 30th March to have their brexit where as remaining requires a completely new government

Hence the vote "after the new year" on the deal to be voted to be routed to the people to have a new referendum in let's say end Feb/Mid March can then be hummed and thought about until 30th March and voila; brexit is completed no matter the vote. Heck; even from the article you link as proof:

The minister was then asked specifically what would happen if an amendment requiring a fresh referendum was carried, replying: “That would be an extremely controversial situation, of course.”

Mr Baker acknowledged such an amendment could not be ignored, adding: “We would be in the position where we would have to look extremely carefully at what the amendment precisely was.”

Also known as "We can stall it out if we don't like it" or put it to a committee to review etc. once again with the knowledge that Brexit happens on 30th March.

Econ_

Nody wrote: »

And such a vote would still have zero meaning because:

1) It's not legally binding (and don't expect the parties to be stupid enough to commit to it this time around)

It's technically not legally binding but there is zero precedence of a govt refusing to follow an amendment passed by parliament. It would create an extraordinary constitutional crisis - it just ain't gonna happen. The govt will follow any amendment made by parliament.

2) They can stall the vote to when it does no longer matter

Nope. Once the relevant bills are tabled - and they will have to be tabled in the coming months in order for there to be any hope of them being agreed in time in conjunction with the EU parliament - parliament can make amendments and the house speaker can allow plenty of votes.

3) Without a change of government party there is still nothing stopping Brexit since 66 Tory MPs can fire any PM who does not push for a Brexit in practice

Yeah and if those Tory MPs forced a leadership battle there's absolutely no guarantee that the new leader would be a Brexiteer. They know this and this is why the closer it gets to March 2019, the less threatening they have become.

4) And the real killer of the deal; the Brexiteers only need to stall out the practice until after 30th March to have their brexit where as remaining requires a completely new government

They can't stall out the withdrawal bill that long. Not possible.

If you want to inform yourself properly on what can/can't happen with regards parliament - watch this

Dominc Grieve, the ex-barrister and former MP who tabled the amendment that secured a final vote for parliament.
.
And a few other experts who actually know what they're talking about

[Deleted User]

A customs Union is important.

The single market (through EFTA /EEA) is utterly essential though.

Please always recall that we were in a Customs Union with the UK for twenty years and there was still checks and a border to negotiate.

It was the formation of the Single Market that removed those barriers. If the UK leaves (as is govt policy) the Single Market that will present enormous challenges for any and all trade in the Country.