The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

kylith · 19-04-2018 08:21AM

horseburger wrote: »

With regard to your claim of misrepresentation of the human development of a foetus, it is worthwhile to consider that the images of cereal on cereal boxes are very often not actual size. Often the image is larger than the cereal in the box, to display more clearly the details of each Corn Flake or Rice Krispie, or Coco Pop, or Frostie, or All Bran, or Special K.

Look. Robert attempted to appeal to emotion by posting an image of a foetus doll which makes a 12 week foetus look like a miniature full-term baby, which was quickly shown to be complete and utter nonsense. It might work on naive 12 year olds, but that kindness of rubbish won’t wash here.

To go with your cereal analogy: Robert posted a picture of Crunchy Nut Cornflakes but a little investigation shows the box actually contains Bran Flakes.

Annasopra · 19-04-2018 08:22AM

This is pathetic. Both camps have people. Could we get back to discussing the real issues instead of being dragged into name calling.

gmisk · 19-04-2018 08:23AM

Has there been any recent polls?
I thought the Irish Times would have one or two by now?

uptherebels · 19-04-2018 08:30AM

horseburger wrote: »

I already said to you that it doesn't really impact on the issue of abortion, if both images are fake.

If you are arguing that the model is an inaccurate representation of the size of the foetus, which it might be, it doesn't impact on the debate, because no matter if both images are an inaccurate representation, abortion still involves the ending of life, regardless of the stage of its human life cycle deveopment.

If you are saying that it is ok to end the life of a foetus at an earlier stage of pregnancy, but not at a later stage, why would that be?

The life of the foetus will still be ended, so I don't really see why - if abortion is advocated - it is more acceptable to end its life on the basis that it is at an earlier stage of development than later.

What exactly are you hoping I will say?

You only need to ask why use innacurate photos/models instead of accurate ones?

I'll give you one guess
Hint: influence the debate

NuMarvel · 19-04-2018 08:44AM

gmisk wrote: »

Has there been any recent polls?
I thought the Irish Times would have one or two by now?

There's a poll in today's IT on the political parties, and this article touches on the level of support the referendum has within party supporters.

I'd say there'll be a more indepth poll on the referendum itself either tomorrow or Saturday.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 09:17AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Lots of religious zealots too though,

On the repeal side?

Zubeneschamali · 19-04-2018 09:19AM

horseburger wrote: »

What's your view of the discussion between Maria Steen and Ivana Bacik regarding grounds for abortion in relation to the exchanges between Peter Fitzpatrick and Patricia Lohr?

I don't know any of those people, so I am not familiar with their views. I have heard that Ivana Bacik is a crazy lesbian feminazi bitch, so I would probably like her.

Why do you think anyone here should care what they said to each other? We are perfectly capable of discussing our own views without reference to Youtube videos of other people we don't know discussing theirs.

Zubeneschamali · 19-04-2018 09:21AM

applehunter wrote: »

How can a campaign containing; militant atheists, Trotsky's, bourgeois, Blue Shirts, Greens, Feminazis & Labour not spontaneously combust?

The prolife side in ireland is mostly conservative catholics, but their funding comes from evangelical Americans who think all conservative catholics are going to Hell. Doesn't seem to bother anyone.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 09:26AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't know any of those people, so I am not familiar with their views. I have heard that Ivana Bacik is a crazy lesbian feminazi bitch, so I would probably like her.

Why do you think anyone here should care what they said to each other? We are perfectly capable of discussing our own views without reference to Youtube videos of other people we don't know discussing theirs.

I'm pretty sure she is married with kids. or was the last i checked anyway.

gmisk · 19-04-2018 09:29AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't know any of those people, so I am not familiar with their views. I have heard that Ivana Bacik is a crazy lesbian feminazi bitch, so I would probably like her.

Why do you think anyone here should care what they said to each other? We are perfectly capable of discussing our own views without reference to Youtube videos of other people we don't know discussing theirs.

I have to say I heard Ivana Bacik speak live in a debate in relation to the marriage referendum here and I found her intelligent, measured and really articulate.
I am pretty sure she is straight not that that matters.

amdublin · 19-04-2018 09:36AM

applehunter wrote: »

There is a lot of inconsistencies on the YES side of the debate.

Considering the makeup of Together for Yes, I couldn't imagine the heat building in the internal combustion engine of their campaign.

How can a campaign containing; militant atheists, Trotsky's, bourgeois, Blue Shirts, Greens, Feminazis & Labour not spontaneously combust?

Shrug

They seem pretty consistent to me, night after night county by county, out on the canvass trail.

I'm following a load of together for yes groups on instagram and Facebook. And of course following the overall group.

Seems completely consistent and cohesive to me, and working together with one focus in sight compassion for women/repeal the 8th.

Together for Yes!
Repeal the 8th!

gmisk · 19-04-2018 09:39AM

amdublin wrote: »

Shrug

They seem pretty consistent to me, night after night county by county, out on the canvass trail.

I'm following a load of together for yes groups on instagram and Facebook. And of course following the overall group.

Seems completely consistent and cohesive to me, and working together with one focus in sight compassion for women/repeal the 8th.

Together for Yes!
Repeal the 8th!

I have to agree I follow a lot of them on twitter + facebook, all seem consistent on their message.
Its also really heartening to see all the small events popping up around the country in support, table quizzes, bake sales and everything else.

amdublin · 19-04-2018 09:41AM

gmisk wrote: »

I have to say I heard Ivana Bacik speak live in a debate in relation to the marriage referendum here and I found her intelligent, measured and really articulate.
I am pretty sure she is straight not that that matters.

I saw Maria steen and Ivana back on Miriam o'callaghan a few months ago.
Ivana was quietly calm and factual. Maria was shrill and heated and focussed on "the babies Ivana, the babies". Ivana kept reminding her of of the woman and that the babies were not born or even babies at that point

That's what I recall anyway.

Let's trust real live living human women and stop equating them with foetuses. I'm voting Yes for Repeal.

robarmstrong · 19-04-2018 09:42AM

Off topic but could any of you PM me links to these groups? I've only found two and they aren't very active.

amdublin · 19-04-2018 09:45AM

gmisk wrote: »

I have to agree I follow a lot of them on twitter + facebook, all seem consistent on their message.
Its also really heartening to see all the small events popping up around the country in support, table quizzes, bake sales and everything else.

I agree. It's very much a grass roots organisation of ordinary people

And love all those little events. Even though €560k was raised via the Crowd funding the little quizzes and things are still going on.

I bought something from etsy yesterday that someone made and she is donating the proceeds (€22) to Together for Yes.

amdublin · 19-04-2018 09:47AM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Off topic but could any of you PM me links to these groups? I've only found two and they aren't very active.

Stick Together for Yes in the search on Facebook and insta and you should find them all

Yeah_Right · 19-04-2018 09:49AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't know any of those people, so I am not familiar with their views. I have heard that Ivana Bacik is a crazy lesbian feminazi bitch, so I would probably like her.

Don't know her but if that's the case, I'd probably hate her and she'd probably hate me. We would agree on at least one thing though.

gmisk · 19-04-2018 09:50AM

amdublin wrote: »

Stick Together for Yes in the search on Facebook and insta and you should find them all

True also stick in the area you are based in as well if you want a specific local one.

blanch152 · 19-04-2018 10:01AM

horseburger wrote: »

Get over yourself.

I've made numerous points about the debate around the referendum for which I have not received a response.

Are you going to post replies to other posters about that?

What's your view of the discussion between Maria Steen and Ivana Bacik regarding grounds for abortion in relation to the exchanges between Peter Fitzpatrick and Patricia Lohr?

I am not interested in the discussion between Maria Steen and Ivana Bacik, I am interested in whether you will follow through in the ballot box in line with the statements you have made on this thread.

You have said you favour abortion in limited circumstances which are currently prohibited by the 8th.

You haven't confirmed that means you are voting to repeal the 8th.

robarmstrong · 19-04-2018 10:03AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not interested in the discussion between Maria Steen and Ivana Bacik, I am interested in whether you will follow through in the ballot box in line with the statements you have made on this thread.

You have said you favour abortion in limited circumstances which are currently prohibited by the 8th.

You haven't confirmed that means you are voting to repeal the 8th.

He's on the fence.

He just conveniently only has an issue with the pro-choice campaign.

gmisk · 19-04-2018 10:07AM

amdublin wrote: »

I agree. It's very much a grass roots organisation of ordinary people

And love all those little events. Even though €560k was raised via the Crowd funding the little quizzes and things are still going on.

I bought something from etsy yesterday that someone made and she is donating the proceeds (€22) to Together for Yes.

Just as a follow on from this. Got the below in an email just now.

An unbelievable 14,823 of you raised your voices and showed your support by donating amounts of all sizes, with an average donation of €39.

It is also just a smidge under 580k now!

bruschi · 19-04-2018 10:36AM

been dipping in and out of this thread for a while but never commented on it. Very much will be voting yes, the 8th in its current guise is completely impractical and puts womens lives in danger. Also, abortions will happen, Irish women are having abortions daily. This wont be stopped, but surely we owe it to them to make sure they are safe and provided for medically and psychologically if they need it.

There are so many arguments on the pro life side that would make me infuriated and the lies and scaremongering go on that you could write a book on it. But it is pointless, nothing will change them and let them keep shouting murderers. The heartache parents go through if they find out their child will not survive birth and would prefer to go through abortion rather than having a still birth is unbearable, and people telling them they are murderers is just reprehensible.

However, on the flip side, one thing that is really annoying me on the pro choice side is the complete dismissal of the unborn child as a clump of cells, or more recently that a toe nail has as much life as a fetus. Try tell a couple who have gone through a miscarriage that they lost a clump of cells or that it was only like a toenail. I get the reasoning, its more to push away the thoughts of it being a potential life. But it is very disingenuous manner to describe a 12 week fetus. How in one set of circumstances can it be considered a joyous expectant life that people celebrate and share news with, but yet others for argument dismiss it as clumps of cells or a blob.

I dont particularly agree with abortion, I would hope I am never in that situation and it would be a last resort, but I also realise it is a necessary procedure for a lot of women and couples. But both sides on this argument are really letting themselves down at times, and the sooner this referendum is over and hopefully new legislation passed, the better.

Yeah_Right · 19-04-2018 11:00AM

I get that pro-choice point out that before 12 (even 20 weeks) its not a baby but just a clump of cells and that to expectant parents and pro-lifers its a life. Basically people have a different perspective depending on their circumstances.

Its like rabbits. Some people view them as cute, fluffy bunnies and have them as pets. I (and a lot of others) see them as vermin and/or food. Doesn't mean I'm going to kill and eat your pet rabbit but I'm also not going to have one as a pet myself and if the wild ones are destroying property, they're getting shot. I'd say the same about other animals.

blanch152 · 19-04-2018 11:15AM

bruschi wrote: »

been dipping in and out of this thread for a while but never commented on it. Very much will be voting yes, the 8th in its current guise is completely impractical and puts womens lives in danger. Also, abortions will happen, Irish women are having abortions daily. This wont be stopped, but surely we owe it to them to make sure they are safe and provided for medically and psychologically if they need it.

There are so many arguments on the pro life side that would make me infuriated and the lies and scaremongering go on that you could write a book on it. But it is pointless, nothing will change them and let them keep shouting murderers. The heartache parents go through if they find out their child will not survive birth and would prefer to go through abortion rather than having a still birth is unbearable, and people telling them they are murderers is just reprehensible.

However, on the flip side, one thing that is really annoying me on the pro choice side is the complete dismissal of the unborn child as a clump of cells, or more recently that a toe nail has as much life as a fetus. Try tell a couple who have gone through a miscarriage that they lost a clump of cells or that it was only like a toenail. I get the reasoning, its more to push away the thoughts of it being a potential life. But it is very disingenuous manner to describe a 12 week fetus. How in one set of circumstances can it be considered a joyous expectant life that people celebrate and share news with, but yet others for argument dismiss it as clumps of cells or a blob.

I dont particularly agree with abortion, I would hope I am never in that situation and it would be a last resort, but I also realise it is a necessary procedure for a lot of women and couples. But both sides on this argument are really letting themselves down at times, and the sooner this referendum is over and hopefully new legislation passed, the better.

I think you are misinterpreting the point about toenails and such like.

The NO campaign are using a limited definition of human life to assert that a fetus is fully human and alive from the moment of conception. The point being made by the YES side is that the application of that definition results in a toenail or a toenail clipping equally being declared as fully human and alive. That does not mean that the YES side believe a toenail clipping is the same as a fetus, just exploring the implications of the NO side position.

Yes, a fetus is a potential human being, with the actual point at which humanity is conferred being a matter of dispute, and subject to both theological and philosophical consideration as well as science. In exploring where that point of becoming human might be, pointing out that the definition used by one side is flawed because it would also apply to toenail clippings is not a sign of disrespect to a fetus, it is pointing out the logical flaws in the NO stance.

Incidentally, while I myself have compared a toenail clipping to a four-week old fetus in that context, I haven't seen the 12-week comparison referenced by you.

bruschi · 19-04-2018 11:32AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you are misinterpreting the point about toenails and such like.

The NO campaign are using a limited definition of human life to assert that a fetus is fully human and alive from the moment of conception. The point being made by the YES side is that the application of that definition results in a toenail or a toenail clipping equally being declared as fully human and alive. That does not mean that the YES side believe a toenail clipping is the same as a fetus, just exploring the implications of the NO side position.

Yes, a fetus is a potential human being, with the actual point at which humanity is conferred being a matter of dispute, and subject to both theological and philosophical consideration as well as science. In exploring where that point of becoming human might be, pointing out that the definition used by one side is flawed because it would also apply to toenail clippings is not a sign of disrespect to a fetus, it is pointing out the logical flaws in the NO stance.

Incidentally, while I myself have compared a toenail clipping to a four-week old fetus in that context, I haven't seen the 12-week comparison referenced by you.

My own personal beliefs are that it isnt a human being until it is born. I think most rational people would agree with that. But that isnt to say that some of the talk on the yes side are very dismissive of the fetus. It's just a point I made. It doesnt make any impact on my voting preference, but I think it lets down the yes side to be so dismissive of the potential life.

I also think there are far worse arguments being made on the no side, but it would be utterly pointless to even attempt debate or contradict them. Lowering one selves to the level of lies and spurious arguments doesnt lend itself to the yes side.

seachto7 · 19-04-2018 11:42AM

I am living in Dublin, but registered to vote in Limerick.

I am not sure if I have to vote in Limerick or can I vote by post for this?

I was thinking of changing my voting address to Dublin, but to be honest, and this is parochial, if there was a general election in 2 months, I would not want to vote for someone in Dublin. I'd rather vote for someone in Limerick. Selfish I know, but that's the way it is.

amdublin · 19-04-2018 11:42AM

Completely agree that women/couples who have a miscarriage see it as losing a baby.

At the end of the day Savita Halpannavar didn't want an abortion. She wanted a baby.
Due to a combination of the rules of the 8th amendment and medical mismanagement she ended up losing her life and the baby (Which sadly was always going to die)

I guess for me if I was in a couple or even if on my own. If I or my partner was six months pregnant and we are losing the baby. Would I be devastated about the baby? Of course. But would I want any risk (any! Not just close to death risk!) to me or my partner.

That for me is why the 8th amendment must go.

I want living women to be in hospital knowing they are the priority over anything else. Not equal to an early foetus or an unborn baby.

And I know the law says "equal" but sometimes it feels to me like we are in fact number 2.

Please trust women. Repeal the 8th.

pjohnson · 19-04-2018 11:45AM

amdublin wrote: »

Completely agree that women/couples who have a miscarriage see it as losing a baby.

At the end of the day Savita Halpannavar didn't want an abortion. She wanted a baby.
Due to a combination of the rules of the 8th amendment and medical mismanagement she ended up losing her life and the baby (Which sadly was always going to die)

I guess for me if I was in a couple or even if on my own. If I or my partner was six months pregnant and we are losing the baby. Would I be devastated about the baby? Of course. But would I want any risk (any! Not just close to death risk!) to me or my partner.

That for me is why the 8th amendment must go.

I want living women to be in hospital knowing they are the priority over anything else. Not equal to an early foetus or an unborn baby.

And I know the law says "equal" but sometimes it feels to me like we are in fact number 2.

Please trust women. Repeal the 8th.

Women are second to the foetus. Remember that case a few years ago where a deceased woman was forced to be kept on life support due to her being pregnant?

Zubeneschamali · 19-04-2018 11:50AM

bruschi wrote: »

My own personal beliefs are that it isnt a human being until it is born. I think most rational people would agree with that.

Well, no, I think this is obviously biologically wrong. Birth is a legal line, it doesn't reflect any inherent change in the fetus/baby, it is just a matter of law and geography.

Birth is a good line to pick for citizenship, inheritance and all of that sort of law, but it is not the best point to pick for when the law should offer protection.

BabysCoffee · 19-04-2018 11:50AM

I'll be canvassing for a Yes vote for the first time, this coming Saturday.
Looking forward to it.
I'll report back here afterwards about how it goes.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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