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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Quin_Dub

This thread is for the continuing discussion of Donald Trumps's presidency in the US and any related matters.

Please ensure that you are familiar with the charter before posting.

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Leroy42

notobtuse wrote: »

Campaigns always are looking for dirt on their opposition. Don Jr did nothing wrong taking that short meeting. Now if you want to talk about REAL Russian collusion, lets look at Hillary Clinton paying for a false Russian propaganda dossier used to illegally spy on the Trump administration in a scheme to derail Trump’s bid for the White House and later cripple his presidency, IMO. That may not fall under the term of treason, but it sure sounds like sedition to me. Where’s Mueller’s indictment of Clinton?

What did Trump Jr have the meeting for? He says it was to source information that the Russian government had obtained illegally by hacking into the DNC servers.

HC paid for a private company to try to get information about Donald. Nothing illegal about that, as you say everyone does it.

Treason, sedition? I simply cannot see how you can absolve Trump Jr is the very thing that you accuse HC of doing. At least have some consistency. Every country is bigger than the politicians. Trump (like HC) will eventually be gone, but the gymnastics that people are doing to try to avoid having to confront the truth is going to harm the US much longer.

That is the bigger picture here

everlast75

Trolling - level 10 unlocked (from the New Yorker magazine)

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Calling it a “regrettable accident,” Amazon apologized on Thursday for shipping ten thousand advance copies of James Comey’s book, “A Higher Loyalty,” to the White House.

Cartons of the book arrived early Thursday morning and kept coming throughout the day, until stacks of the book clogged virtually every hallway and office in the building.

Reportedly, Donald J. Trump was so incensed by the book situation that he screamed at Mike Pence while the Vice-President was in the middle of praising him, one source said.

The White House press secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, called any speculation that Trump had ordered Comey’s book “absurd,” adding, “The President does not order reading material.”

notobtuse

Leroy42 wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

I was referring to the people involved with the Trump campaign. There is no doubt Russian tried influencing the election... But not like people think. IMO, it was not to elect Trump, but rather to weaken the likely winner... Clinton, going into office, whom Putin despised. Russia, like everyone else, believed Hillary would win the election. And I believe that 13 Russians deal by Mueller was only symbolic. How many think any of them will ever be prosecuted? Does Mueller even think any of them will ever be prosecuted?

Fine, by we already know that Trump Jr tried to obtain information through the Russian government. From this you then must accept that the man that everyone knows runs everything himself completely lost control of his own campaign.

We know that days after that meeting Trump suddenly started talking about HC missing 33k e-mails. It could be mere coincidence I guess, but

We know that Roger Stone was in contact with Wikileaks and Guccifer.

We know that Flynn, was in illegal contact with Russia immediately after the election. It has yet to be seen whether he simply turned into a Russiafile upon Trumps election.

We know that Sessions had meetings with Russians, and lied under oath to congress about those meetings.

We know Trump lied to try to cover up Trump Jr meeting with the Russians.

Is that a slam dunk or prove that Trump was directly involved. No. Does it raise some serious questions that must be answered? Yes. People calling it a witch hunt despite all of the above (and their is much, much more) are doing democracy a disservice.

Campaigns always are looking for dirt on their opposition. Don Jr did nothing wrong taking that short meeting. Now if you want to talk about REAL Russian collusion, lets look at Hillary Clinton paying for a false Russian propaganda dossier used to illegally spy on the Trump administration in a scheme to derail Trump’s bid for the White House and later cripple his presidency, IMO. That may not fall under the term of treason, but it sure sounds like sedition to me. Where’s Mueller’s indictment of Clinton?

Leroy42

notobtuse wrote: »

I was referring to the people involved with the Trump campaign. There is no doubt Russian tried influencing the election... But not like people think. IMO, it was not to elect Trump, but rather to weaken the likely winner... Clinton, going into office, whom Putin despised. Russia, like everyone else, believed Hillary would win the election. And I believe that 13 Russians deal by Mueller was only symbolic. How many think any of them will ever be prosecuted? Does Mueller even think any of them will ever be prosecuted?

Fine, by we already know that Trump Jr tried to obtain information through the Russian government. From this you then must accept that the man that everyone knows runs everything himself completely lost control of his own campaign.

We know that days after that meeting Trump suddenly started talking about HC missing 33k e-mails. It could be mere coincidence I guess, but

We know that Roger Stone was in contact with Wikileaks and Guccifer.

We know that Flynn, was in illegal contact with Russia immediately after the election. It has yet to be seen whether he simply turned into a Russiafile upon Trumps election.

We know that Sessions had meetings with Russians, and lied under oath to congress about those meetings.

We know Trump lied to try to cover up Trump Jr meeting with the Russians.

Is that a slam dunk or prove that Trump was directly involved. No. Does it raise some serious questions that must be answered? Yes. People calling it a witch hunt despite all of the above (and their is much, much more) are doing democracy a disservice.

VinLieger

notobtuse wrote: »

I was referring to the people involved with the Trump campaign.

You literally were not

notobtuse wrote: »

Please tell me how many of the indictments Mueller has handed out so far involve the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election.

No mention of the trump campaign so stop trying to move the goalposts when your proven wrong

Water John

But that is the most important issue, that Russia sought to interfere in the US election. You're agreeing with me. Mueller job is to investigate, any collusion, in that. Job needs to be done, for the sake of American democracy.
Trump is secondary. He just happens to have his past links, linking into more present links, with Russia, catching up with him.

notobtuse

Leroy42 wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

Please tell me how many of the indictments Mueller has handed out so far involve the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election.

13. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/16/robert-mueller-russians-charged-election

That is without looking into Manafort, Flynn etc which one could dig deeper into (as I think Mueller is).

There is simply no doubt that Russia interfered. We also have the Trump Jr meeting, which even Trump Jr acknowledges was trying to get info through Russia to help with the campaign.

I was referring to the people involved with the Trump campaign. There is no doubt Russian tried influencing the election... But not like people think. IMO, it was not to elect Trump, but rather to weaken the likely winner... Clinton, going into office, whom Putin despised. Russia, like everyone else, believed Hillary would win the election. And I believe that 13 Russians deal by Mueller was only symbolic. How many think any of them will ever be prosecuted? Does Mueller even think any of them will ever be prosecuted?

everlast75

Water John wrote: »

Mueller is not up for election. His public ratings matter, diddly squat. He has a job of work to do. It simply about right and wrong.
Every politician and public servant, in America, should sign up to giving him, any help they can.

And furthermore, Mueller doesn't give a flying **** what DJT thinks of him or the investigation. Unfortunately for Trump, Mueller keeps plugging away, head down, building his case.

There is more than circumstantial evidence that Trump obstructed justice, but if you want to nail the SCROTUS, you need to have it all locked down. That takes time.

So on the grounds that there is more than circumstantial evidence, coupled with the amount of convictions to date, the idea of shutting it down to all but DJT's base, makes absolutely no sense.

Leroy42

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ooops. My bad. This tweet three hours ago:

Slippery James Comey, the worst FBI Director in history, was not fired because of the phony Russia investigation where, by the way, there was NO COLLUSION (except by the Dems)!

Haha, even though he said it on TV that it defo was. The man is a joke. So we have total confirmation that the man is a liar, why would anybody believe anything he has to say?

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

But even if it has turned to other matters, so what? Obviously, given The Donald's insouciance and lack of opinion on the matter, there is nothing to hide. It's not like he's bothered about the investigation or what it might uncover. Otherwise he'd be tweeting about it. So, it's all good, isn't it?

Ooops. My bad. This tweet three hours ago:

Slippery James Comey, the worst FBI Director in history, was not fired because of the phony Russia investigation where, by the way, there was NO COLLUSION (except by the Dems)!

Water John

Mueller is not up for election. His public ratings matter, diddly squat. He has a job of work to do. It simply about right and wrong.
Every politician and public servant, in America, should sign up to giving him, any help they can.

jooksavage

Witch hunt. Jesus Christ. Indictments and guilty pleas to beat the band and people are still whining about bloody witch hunts. You know that no one would be using that term if witches HAD ACTUALLY BEEN FOUND, right?

Professor Moriarty

notobtuse wrote: »

Yup... "investigation of the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election."

That's what we were all led to believe. It's the 'small print' that turned it into a witch hunt, IMO.

But even if it has turned to other matters, so what? Obviously, given The Donald's insouciance and lack of opinion on the matter, there is nothing to hide. It's not like he's bothered about the investigation or what it might uncover. Otherwise he'd be tweeting about it. So, it's all good, isn't it?

Leroy42

notobtuse wrote: »

Please tell me how many of the indictments Mueller has handed out so far involve the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election.

13. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/16/robert-mueller-russians-charged-election

That is without looking into Manafort, Flynn etc which one could dig deeper into (as I think Mueller is).

There is simply no doubt that Russia interfered. We also have the Trump Jr meeting, which even Trump Jr acknowledges was trying to get info through Russia to help with the campaign.

Leroy42

notobtuse wrote: »

Yup... "investigation of the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election."

That's what we were all led to believe. It's the 'small print' that turned it into a witch hunt, IMO.

So its a witch hunt because people were not paying attention?

notobtuse

VinLieger wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

IMO, it has become evident to many that his focus is anything but Russian interference and has taken to running a witch hunt .

Aww and you were doing so well until you called it a witch hunt making it pretty obvious where you get your diet of bias info from

Please tell me how many of the indictments Mueller has handed out so far involve the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election.

VinLieger

notobtuse wrote: »

IMO, it has become evident to many that his focus is anything but Russian interference and has taken to running a witch hunt .

Aww and you were doing so well until you called it a witch hunt making it pretty obvious where you get your diet of bias info from

Quin_Dub

notobtuse wrote: »

Apples and oranges when you figure in that 38% of people don't know who Mueller is or have no opinion.

Not really - Every Poll has a reasonably sizable "Don't Know/No Opinion" bucket.

Of that "Don't Know" bucket I cannot imagine that many of them fall into the "I don't know who he is" category..

The majority I'd submit, either have no opinion or are undecided.

notobtuse

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, I have seen several commentators say that the worst case scenario is not that Mueller is fired, it is that Mueller delivers a damning report and nobody does anything about it. The Republicans in Congress yell "Fake News!" and bin the report.

Then what do you do?

Not that I'd be defending the GOP, but not all GOP politicians are completely unprincipled. If the report is damning and has supporting evidence, then there are some GOP politicians who will do the right thing.

Yup... "investigation of the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election."

That's what we were all led to believe. It's the 'small print' that turned it into a witch hunt, IMO.

notobtuse

Hurrache wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

According to a Marist Poll this week, Americans have an increasingly unfavorable view of Robert Mueller. The unfavorable opinion of the special counsel is at 30% of Americans,

So what you're saying is Mueller is seen more favourably than Trump, or in your terms, American people have a bigger unfavourable view of Trump than Mueller.

Apples and oranges when you figure in that 38% of people don't know who Mueller is or have no opinion.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, I have seen several commentators say that the worst case scenario is not that Mueller is fired, it is that Mueller delivers a damning report and nobody does anything about it. The Republicans in Congress yell "Fake News!" and bin the report.

Then what do you do?

Not that I'd be defending the GOP, but not all GOP politicians are completely unprincipled. If the report is damning and has supporting evidence, then there are some GOP politicians who will do the right thing.

Leroy42

notobtuse wrote: »

According to a Marist Poll this week, Americans have an increasingly unfavorable view of Robert Mueller. The unfavorable opinion of the special counsel is at 30% of Americans, up from 20% in late March (and 38% of residents say they have either never heard of Mueller or are unsure how to rate him, which is shocking to me since the media have dedicated so much time to covering Mueller’s investigation, in between character assassinations of Trump, IMO). Mueller’s primary focus of the investigation was supposed to be Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. IMO, it has become evident to many that his focus is anything but Russian interference and has taken to running a witch hunt.

I say give Mueller a deadline of a couple months to come up with his conclusions as to his original mandate, which was Russian interference, or shut the special council down.

Do you know what the wording on the set-up of the investigation actually is? Please show me and then explain to me how it is, or was, ever simply about Russian interference.

To help you out here is the letter; https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3726408-Rosenstein-letter-appointing-Mueller-special.html

CFR 600.4 states:

(a)Original jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall be established by the Attorney General. The Special Counsel will be provided with a specific factual statement of the matter to be investigated. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall also include the authority to investigate and prosecute federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, the Special Counsel's investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; and to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/600.4

Hurrache

notobtuse wrote: »

According to a Marist Poll this week, Americans have an increasingly unfavorable view of Robert Mueller. The unfavorable opinion of the special counsel is at 30% of Americans,

So what you're saying is Mueller is seen more favourably than Trump, or in your terms, American people have a bigger unfavourable view of Trump than Mueller.

[Deleted User]

alpahaeagle wrote: »

Have you ever thought that muller is going on such a a wide arc of investgating that there is nothing to find?

It looks to me like he's finding dirt everywhere. Trump has surrounded himself with a lot of shady characters.

notobtuse

According to a Marist Poll this week, Americans have an increasingly unfavorable view of Robert Mueller. The unfavorable opinion of the special counsel is at 30% of Americans, up from 20% in late March (and 38% of residents say they have either never heard of Mueller or are unsure how to rate him, which is shocking to me since the media have dedicated so much time to covering Mueller’s investigation, in between character assassinations of Trump, IMO). Mueller’s primary focus of the investigation was supposed to be Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. IMO, it has become evident to many that his focus is anything but Russian interference and has taken to running a witch hunt.

I say give Mueller a deadline of a couple months to come up with his conclusions as to his original mandate, which was Russian interference, or shut the special council down.

VinLieger

alpahaeagle wrote: »

Have you ever thought that muller is going on such a a wide arc of investgating that there is nothing to find?

LOL, so your head is firmly stuck in the sand?

everlast75

Btw - out of the 20 or so companies that pay to use Trump's name on products, all but 2 have ditched him. That's the effect him becoming president has had commercially

Mumha

alpahaeagle wrote: »

Have you ever thought that muller is going on such a a wide arc of investgating that there is nothing to find?

He's already had 19 indictments and 5 guilty pleas, where have you been ?

Mumha

everlast75 wrote: »

You wait for the dems to take the majority and then revisit. Unless stormy gets to Trump first of course

There is a clear fear that what happened in 2016, happens in November, in terms of Russian interference, and the Republicans are doing nothing to make sure this doesn't happen again.

alpahaeagle

Have you ever thought that muller is going on such a a wide arc of investgating that there is nothing to find?