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Laura Whitmore: 'A man put his hand up my skirt in a nightclub and laughed'

professore

More front page news on the Indo today.

Really ... an Irish woman is gang raped in the Czech republic by 6 men. Radio silence.

A Z list celeb once had some creep put his hand up her skirt - front page news. It's not pleasant but hardly worthy of front page coverage.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/laura-whitmore-a-man-put-his-hand-up-my-skirt-in-a-nightclub-and-laughed-36799492.html

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ChrisWeiland

Appledreams15 wrote: »

She posed for FHM -her choice.
A man touched her without her consent -not her choice.
How are they in anyway related?

Because David Beckham posed in pants I can go up and grab his dick?
I've never thought that

Did you not read the part where I said that groping was wrong?

I was referring to the broader article she wrote in which she repeatedly complains about being objectified by men and the media.

It seems that some "celebrities" have no problem being sexualised if it helps boost their profile but once they achieve success they complain about it. You can't have it both ways

corner of hells

Grayson wrote: »

Have you ever said that to them?
Or have you ever told a friend that certain language or attitudes are unacceptable?

Im sure that you're actually a great person but it's quite possible that something may have happened to someone you care about and they wouldn't mention it. It could be because they don't want to discuss something disturbing. Maybe they don't want to upset you. Maybe they just want to forget about it.

I'd say most women have experienced some form of physical or verbal harassment. I'd say it's worse at night when alcohol is involved. And it's not like it's the majority of men are perpetrators but there are enough creeps to mean that most women get harassed at some point.

There's also the fact that for centuries this was acceptable. It's only in the last couple of decades we've seen change. We've changed a lot but we're not perfect yet.

Thanks for the compliment , I think.

Maybe I'm not articulating my posts very well.
I'm trying to say that groping women is never acceptable or warranted , what's disturbing is that there's posters here who suggesting it's pointless reporting to doormen or Gardai because there's an assumption nothing will be done and a couple of others are saying they'd change where they go socialise etc.
You should be reporting these incidents and should not be avoiding situations or environments .

When you make comments like " I'd say or most women " thats supposition , assumption , theory ... i.e. not proven .
Believe me I do respect the points you're making

Grayson

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ah jasus. Just because she poses in fhm doesn't mean that she wants a strangers hand shoved between her legs.

True. It is not an invitation to assault someone.

but........I still love irony.

kittensmittens

corner of hells wrote: »

So the suggestion is that bouncers are complicit and accept this behaviour ?

If that's accepted as a norm wherever you socialise , then I'd be taking a good look at where you drink.

Ah stop :pac: Thats a stretch for even in here

Its exactly as said. If the bouncers dont do anything about it ie put the offender out of club/bar etc what chance would you have of a guard having doing anything about it? But I think you knew that was what was meant but ignore any other salient points in the post by all means

professore

Ak84 wrote: »

Not a nice thing to happen to a woman.
As a man it would not bother me if a woman Grabbed me. But thinking if a man grabbed me it would be very uncomfortable. Hmm. Am I allowed to say that or is it sexist
???

No, just homophobic. According to the thought police anyway.

corner of hells

kittensmittens wrote: »

Ah stop :pac: Thats a stretch for even in here

Its exactly as said. If the bouncers dont do anything about it ie put the offender out of club/bar etc what chance would you have of a guard having doing anything about it? But I think you knew that was what was meant but ignore any other salient points in the post by all means

There was other salient points ?

If bouncers don't put they offender out the club , then you call the Gardai.

professore

Grayson wrote: »

Have you ever said that to them?
Or have you ever told a friend that certain language or attitudes are unacceptable?

Im sure that you're actually a great person but it's quite possible that something may have happened to someone you care about and they wouldn't mention it. It could be because they don't want to discuss something disturbing. Maybe they don't want to upset you. Maybe they just want to forget about it.

I'd say most women have experienced some form of physical or verbal harassment. I'd say it's worse at night when alcohol is involved. And it's not like it's the majority of men are perpetrators but there are enough creeps to mean that most women get harassed at some point.

There's also the fact that for centuries this was acceptable. It's only in the last couple of decades we've seen change. We've changed a lot but we're not perfect yet.

I'm sorry but this was NEVER acceptable. I don't know where women are getting this idea from. Maybe at CEO level or the local priest got away with it, but the perv feeling women up was never acceptable to me or anyone I knew.

I guess most women never said anything and the gropers were careful to do it unseen as I certainly didn't see or hear much of it. It seems to be worse these days though.

kittensmittens

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Total and utter baloney:

Groping women is taken very seriously in our society. It's absolute nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Think what you will Pete, no one here or irl will ever change your opinion in these matters. I certainly have no intention of even attempting to do so with you

BUT....I can practically guarantee you that if we did a poll in AH of the female posters about how many have been groped in pubs/clubs etc and what the frequency was and how often there was an appropriate response by bouncers etc (ie removing the offender from the establishment.)my points in the last post would be affirmed.
If fact most women as the years go by and it happens again and again, stop even saying it to bouncers. You just leave the club etc if the guy is persistent.
In all the years when I was out and about pubs and club wise, only ONE guy was removed and he was a serious fukcing menace.....no joking :mad:

So you can say what you like, my experience and that of so many other women on being groped by strangers in pubs and clubs is the norm and a headline in a rag to say that one guy got in trouble for it doesn't really do it for me unfortunately.

Actually, not that it would be listened to or anything by the male frequent flyers to these type if threads but I think if there WERE statistics and polls on this subject....they would just poo poo it as "hysterical hyperbole anecdotal crap" anyway.

[Deleted User]

ChrisWeiland wrote: »

While I obviously abhor unwanted groping the gist of the Laura Whitmore interview can be surmised as "Woman who posed for FHM complains about being objectified by men"

No, that doesn't wash. Regardless of what did or didn't happen, the above example is not simply objectifying someone. It's crossing a line once touching of that nature arises. So what if she took racy pictures or even did full blown gangbangs on film, none of that gives anyone the right to lay a hand on anyone. You can be seen as a sex symbol and even court that or be a literal porn star, none of that gives creeps the right to touch you uninvited.

professore

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Because David Beckham posed in pants I can go up and grab his dick?
I've never thought that

Lots of women have thought that. An Italian journalist for one : https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/david-beckham-groped-by-italian-tv-196561

Not that it makes it right in any way.

professore

kittensmittens wrote: »

Think what you will Pete, no one here or irl will ever change your opinion in these matters. I certainly have no intention of even attempting to do so with you

BUT....I can practically guarantee you that if we did a poll in AH of the female posters about how many have been groped in pubs/clubs etc and what the frequency was and how often there was an appropriate response by bouncers etc (ie removing the offender from the establishment.)my points in the last post would be affirmed.
If fact most women as the years go by and it happens again and again, stop even saying it to bouncers. You just leave the club etc if the guy is persistent.
In all the years when I was out and about pubs and club wise, only ONE guy was removed and he was a serious fukcing menace.....no joking :mad:

So you can say what you like, my experience and that of so many other women on being groped by strangers in pubs and clubs is the norm and a headline in a rag to say that one guy got in trouble for it doesn't really do it for me unfortunately.

Actually, not that it would be listened to or anything by the male frequent flyers to these type if threads but I think if there WERE statistics and polls on this subject....they would just poo poo it as "hysterical hyperbole anecdotal crap" anyway.

A bouncers function is to stop the club from being sued. A better approach world be to start suing these venues. The bouncers would quickly change their tune and throw out these creeps.

ChrisWeiland

Omackeral wrote: »

No, that doesn't wash. Regardless of what did or didn't happen, the above example is not simply objectifying someone. It's crossing a line once touching of that nature arises. So what if she took racy pictures or even did full blown gangbangs on film, none of that gives anyone the right to lay a hand on anyone. You can be seen as a sex symbol and even court that or be a literal porn star, none of that gives creeps the right to touch you uninvited.

Point me in the direction of where I in any way condoned groping

Grayson

corner of hells wrote: »

Thanks for the compliment , I think.

Maybe I'm not articulating my posts very well.
I'm trying to say that groping women is never acceptable or warranted , what's disturbing is that there's posters here who suggesting it's pointless reporting to doormen or Gardai because there's an assumption nothing will be done and a couple of others are saying they'd change where they go socialise etc.
You should be reporting these incidents and should not be avoiding situations or environments .

When you make comments like " I'd say or most women " thats supposition , assumption , theory ... i.e. not proven .
Believe me I do respect the points you're making

Thanks.

I do think most women have at some point been subject to verbal or physical harassment
Here's a very broad study done in the US.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/2/21/17036438/sexual-harassment-me-too-assault-hollywood

Now that doesn't mean it's the same here. For example US colleges have had huge problems with sexual assaults and especially with covering them up. As far as I'm aware that's not the same here. Still we can assume that a lot of the findings are probably similar. That most women experience some kind of harassment at some stage. that men do to but to a lesser extent. That gay people are more likely to experience than straight and that disabled people are more likely again.

In my early thirties I started asking female friends about this and I was surprised. In work they all knew who the creeps were and knew to avoid them. I thought the guys were ok but never realized the extent of the harassment. There were girls who had dirty messages sent to them. Guys making suggestive comments. One guy went full on stalker and the girl was afraid to tell anyone in case they thought she'd led him on.
Outside of work my female friends told me about all the harassment they'd experienced over their lifetimes. It pretty much started when they hit puberty. I was of course completely oblivious to most of it. Some of it is sexual. Some of it is guys just dismissing them. And it's worse when drink is involved. They tend to just shrug it off because otherwise it'd ruin the night. And it happens often enough that it's not unusual.

It made me realise that women have a completely different experience to men in our society. It's something they grow up with and that I'll never experience.

kittensmittens

corner of hells wrote: »

There was other salient points ?

If bouncers don't put they offender out the club , then you call the Gardai.

Try that several times a weekend and see how popular you become with the bouncers and AGS

If myself and the girlfriends I was with had of called the guards every single time this happened to us, Im sure the guards would have LOVED it. Lets be real here.
But again, you know this. I'm sure you have been in pubs and clubs over the years. I'm sure that you will accept that this type if behaviour happens.
I'm also sure you know the guards dont attend for ar5e grabbing or beeewb squeezing. Sexual assault or not. It doesnt happen.
The last guy I spoke about in the post to outlaw pete was the only one I saw removed and the girl who finally got him removed (I didnt know here but on the night in question, at least 4 of us reported him to the bouncer)
He was finally removed when he ripped her top dragging out of her as he kept trying to grind up behind her and she was trying to get away. She asked for the guards, she was told to ring them herself. She did. We waited with her to corroborate her story.
We were still outside the premises at 5.20 (closed at 2am, rang at 1.30) waiting for them.
They didnt show so we left and went home.

Grayson

professore wrote: »

Lots of women have thought that. An Italian journalist for one : https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/david-beckham-groped-by-italian-tv-196561

Not that it makes it right in any way.

What happened to her? Was she prosecuted? Because she should have been.

corner of hells

Grayson wrote: »

Thanks.

I do think most women have at some point been subject to verbal or physical harassment
Here's a very broad study done in the US.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/2/21/17036438/sexual-harassment-me-too-assault-hollywood

Now that doesn't mean it's the same here. For example US colleges have had huge problems with sexual assaults and especially with covering them up. As far as I'm aware that's not the same here. Still we can assume that a lot of the findings are probably similar. That most women experience some kind of harassment at some stage. that men do to but to a lesser extent. That gay people are more likely to experience than straight and that disabled people are more likely again.

In my early thirties I started asking female friends about this and I was surprised. In work they all knew who the creeps were and knew to avoid them. I thought the guys were ok but never realized the extent of the harassment. There were girls who had dirty messages sent to them. Guys making suggestive comments. One guy went full on stalker and the girl was afraid to tell anyone in case they thought she'd led him on.
Outside of work my female friends told me about all the harassment they'd experienced over their lifetimes. It pretty much started when they hit puberty. I was of course completely oblivious to most of it. Some of it is sexual. Some of it is guys just dismissing them. And it's worse when drink is involved. They tend to just shrug it off because otherwise it'd ruin the night. And it happens often enough that it's not unusual.

It made me realise that women have a completely different experience to men in our society. It's something they grow up with and that I'll never experience.

Good post , I get what you're saying, I really do.

Outlaw Pete

kittensmittens wrote: »

I can practically guarantee you that if we did a poll in AH of the female posters about how many have been groped in pubs/clubs etc and what the frequency was and how often there was an appropriate response by bouncers etc (ie removing the offender from the establishment.)my points in the last post would be affirmed.

So you can say what you like, my experience and that of so many other women on being groped by strangers in pubs and clubs is the norm and a headline in a rag to say that one guy got in trouble for it doesn't really do it for me unfortunately.

When did I say that groping wasn't common? The point I was making was that if you are seriously groped, then the Gardai will not ignore it. That was the suggestion you made with your three smilies. I wouldn't doubt for a second that bouncers don't do much for the very minor stuff, but that would go for both sexes. When's the last time you seen a woman charged for pinching a man's bum for example? Never happens and so why should it happen the other way around.

Hell, this bar in Scotland had to stop their staff wearing kilts the groping by women got so bad:

Scottish barmen banned from wearing kilts as drunk women keep groping their penises

Drunk women have forced Scottish barmen to stop wearing kilts, as they can't keep their hands off their nether regions.

Staff at Hootananny in Inverness have taken drastic action and gone back to wearing trousers to keep randy punters at bay.

"It may seem funny but it is serious, too – the women are sticking their hands up their kilts," owner Kit Fraser told the Inverness Courier.

"Can you imagine if I went into a restaurant and stuck my hand up a girl's skirt? I would be taken to the police station and rightly so.

"We fellows are very, very aware of sexism. I think the women need to catch up."

Iain Howie, the pub's assistant manager, said it usually happened at the weekends when large groups of women would "circle around" staff.

He said: "The first few times, it is funny. But when it is really busy and everyone has to work fast and hard, and your hands are full of glasses, you feel quite vulnerable."

Inverness area manager Ramsay McGhee, of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said no employee should be a victim of sexual harassment.

"It seems these guys have found a pragmatic and common sense solution to an irritating problem.

"It is a shame, wearing the kilt in a place like Hootananny adds to the whole character and atmosphere."

kylith

The issue with ‘why don’t you report it’ is: how do we prove it? We go to the Gardaí and say what? ‘Some fella stuck his hand up my skirt in Whelans’ who is he? Where is he? Where’s your proof? Even if we manage to catch him in the act it’s his word against mine. So what can the Gardaí do about it?

corner of hells

kittensmittens wrote: »

Try that several times a weekend and see how popular you become with the bouncers and AGS
If myself and the girlfriends I was with had of called the guards every single time this happened to us, Im sure the guards would have LOVED it. Lets be real here.
But again, you know this. I'm sure you have been in pubs and clubs over the years. I'm sure that you will accept that this type if behaviour happens.
I'm also sure you know the guards dont attend for ar5e grabbing or beeewb squeezing. Sexual assault or not. It doesnt happen.
The last guy I spoke about in the post to outlaw pete was the only one I saw removed and the girl who finally got him removed (I didnt know here but on the night in question, at least 4 of us reported him to the bouncer)
He was finally removed when he ripped her top dragging out of her as he kept trying to grind up behind her and she was trying to get away. She asked for the guards, she was told to ring them herself. She did. We waited with her to corroborate her story.
We were still outside the premises at 5.20 (closed at 2am, rang at 1.30) waiting for them.
They didnt show so we left and went home.

Very disturbing , was the girl a pal of yours ?

I'm assuming she went to a Garda station .

Patty O Furniture

professore wrote: »

More front page news on the Indo today.

Really ... an Irish woman is gang raped in the Czech republic by 6 men. Radio silence.

A Z list celeb once had some creep put his hand up her skirt - front page news. It's not pleasant but hardly worthy of front page coverage.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/laura-whitmore-a-man-put-his-hand-up-my-skirt-in-a-nightclub-and-laughed-36799492.html

Shure she would have faced worse when in the Jungle, Ant(s) & Dec

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I was out for a few beers last Saturday for a birthday party. One of the lads was walking towards the bar, and happened to walk in the middle of a hen party.

I turned to tell him to get me a pint as well, when I did, he was naked to the waist, with not a button left on his shirt, and about 6 women pawing at him, in throngs of laughter. He was absolutely morto, and left for home.

I bet he only had the drinks coaster to bate them off, i actually feel sorry for the fella's that are no good at the stripping parties, jeees, blue murder

corner of hells

kylith wrote: »

The issue with ‘why don’t you report it’ is: how do we prove it? We go to the Gardaí and say what? ‘Some fella stuck his hand up my skirt in Whelans’ who is he? Where is he? Where’s your proof? Even if we manage to catch him in the act it’s his word against mine. So what can the Gardaí do about it?

Probably not much , but not reporting it potentially leaves this guy do it again and possibly escalate his behaviour.
At least if you call the Gardai or report there's a chance he may be caught

kylith

corner of hells wrote: »

Probably not much , but not reporting it potentially leaves this guy do it again and possibly escalate his behaviour.
At least if you call the Gardai or report there's a chance he may be caught

How do you suggest I detain him for the Gardaí, assuming he hasn’t vanished into the crowd by the time I turn around? Are the Gardaí going to test my knickers for fingerprints?

kittensmittens

I think you have unintentionally made my point for me Pete. Pinching a bum threw clothes I would consider an minor assault on both men on women.
But look what happens when a man wears essentially a skirt!! He has his genitally grabbed. Same goes for women. Only we wear skirts a lot more than men.
NO ONE should be groping ANYONE.
But how do YOU rate a "MINOR " assault? Where do you draw the line?

I wasnt even really talking about bum pinching tbh. Thats a very regular thing women(and men) put up with. I'm talking about breast grabbing, breast squeezing, guys putting their face into your chest to motor boat you. Dry humping (this is scary as Im not the biggest of females and if a guy grabs you from behind and starts that, believe me its not easy getting them off you. Size difference etc). I've had friends dragged and knocked off stools by guys dragging out of them and grabbing their bits.

I could be here all night trading stories but at the end of the day, whats the point?

corner of hells

kylith wrote: »

How do you suggest I detain him for the Gardaí, assuming he hasn’t vanished into the crowd by the time I turn around? Are the Gardaí going to test my knickers for fingerprints?

Jesus wept , that's not what I fcukin' meant.

kittensmittens

corner of hells wrote: »

Very disturbing , was the girl a pal of yours ?

I'm assuming she went to a Garda station .

No as stated she rang the guards from the premises and the same as any other crime you wait at the scene as instructed by AGS. Which we did. Hours passed. Several follow up calls to AGS. No show.

Already said I didnt know her.

kylith

corner of hells wrote: »

Jesus wept , that's not what I fcukin' meant.

What do you mean then?

Dakota Dan

Omackeral wrote: »

No, that doesn't wash. Regardless of what did or didn't happen, the above example is not simply objectifying someone. It's crossing a line once touching of that nature arises. So what if she took racy pictures or even did full blown gangbangs on film, none of that gives anyone the right to lay a hand on anyone. You can be seen as a sex symbol and even court that or be a literal porn star, none of that gives creeps the right to touch you uninvited.

That's fair enough but why did she have to run to the media with her story? It could have been resolved without the media being told about it.

Grayson

Dakota Dan wrote: »

That's fair enough but why did she have to run to the media with her story? It could have been resolved without the media being told about it.

Why shouldn't she?
It's not inherently bad. If a guy had been named and shamed I might feel a need to reassess my feelings but that didn't happen. It's just a person recounting an experience.

corner of hells

kylith wrote: »

What do you mean then?

Don't personalise it.

We have a responsibility to report criminal acts like what's being discussed , it to protect a wider society.
You took me up the wrong way , I'm certainly not suggesting to try restrain somebody.

corner of hells

kittensmittens wrote: »

No as stated she rang the guards from the premises and the same as any other crime you wait at the scene as instructed by AGS. Which we did. Hours passed. Several follow up calls to AGS. No show.

Already said I didnt know her.

Very sad , a girl on her on gets treated like that in a club , AGS don't appear and she has to rely on good Samaritans for support.