Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

joe40 wrote: »

Absolutely not. It is perfectly fine to talk about personal responsibility to groups of teenagers, for parents to talk about it with children etc. Plenty of nights I would be reluctant to walk home.
Here is the important bit when you are talking about or investigating a specific incident. the victim has no responsibility.
There is a massive distinction. I'm people like francie don't get it

So someone has ZERO responsibility in any circumstances?
Im not talking about a specific incident you may or may not realise before weighing in with your absolutism

Maybe i shlould do this differently
1.No one deserves to be raped. ( I think w can agree)

2.If there is something you can do to mitigate the risk if being raped, you should do it.
(Do you agree or disagree)

3. If someone (wilfuly or unbeknownst to them) does something that exacerbates the risk of being raped, is she in anyway responsible for being raped? No. (We agree?)

But is she in anyway responsible for placing herself in this position? (Is this where we disagree?)
Im not asking did she faciltate her being raped, rather is she in any way responsible for ensuring her own safety? Could she have excercised some precaution?
Bear in mind the whole issue of consent, and when is sex rape.
We agree people should excercise caution, as you said, you would be reluctant to walk home.
Youre concious of risk to your safety.

Theres workplace accidents/incidents all the time despite HSA , H+S trainging, and while there may or may not gave been negligence, on occaision the victim/injured may have done something that exacerbates the risk to themselves.

I dont think anyone in this thread, or indeed on boards has said someone deserves to be raped. Ever.
But if we all want to reduce incidents of rape, in addition to sex education ( including the principle of consent), i think we need to include and emphasis behaviours. Included in this would be behaviours that might lead boys to rape.
Its not victim blaming or apologising for rape. Its an attempt to lessen the chances of a boy raping a girl, or a girl being raped by a boy.

JRant

Mrsmum wrote: »

So the next time a man is up on a rape case in more or less the same circumstances and let's pretend you know him, will you be saying to him what the hell did you and your mate end up in a room with a drunk woman for, didn't you see what happened to PJ ? Because you see men need to mind themselves just as much as women don't you think. A rape charge doesn't go away even if found not guilty.

Now do tell, how is a man to defend himself, if say, there is regret on the woman's part the following day and she decides to go to the police. As you have rightly pointed out, the result of any ensuing court case is redundant as once accused you are forever more a rapist #Ibelieveher. In fact a court case isn't even necessary, just the mere allegation and your life is ruined.

As a parent of teenagers you should be worried. No matter how well you raised them they could easily find themselves in such a situation and where will you stand then?

To all those wallowing in delighted, enjoy your moment but if you think outrage brigade will stop there you are sadly mistaken.

jimmycrackcorm

NAGDEFI wrote:

It's time for closure on threads like this too.

Ulster says NO!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Responsible for what exactly. Talking in general if she is is raped or assaulted in any way she has no reponsibilty. Do you understand no responsibility for a crime commited by someone else
That is like a comment from fifties.

Why are you deliberately misunderstanding what is being said.
You can talk until the cows come home about what should happen in an ideal world.

She may not be responsible for the assault, rape or bad treatment
But her lack of personal responsibility allowed her to be in a situation where the odds are much higher.

Simple point really, but totally ignored to get at issues with morality and men.

I am not deliberately misunderstanding your point. I have already said there is nothing wrong with giving advice but not in relation to specific event.
Are you saying that a woman should never go back to guys house after a night out. If she does and is assaulted she is responsible in some small way. The word "responsible" is your word.
I will tell my son not to walk home after a disco if he does he might get beat up.
If he goes against my advice walks home and gets beat up, do you think I will put any responsibility on him. No I won't. Responsibility lies solely with the criminal

JRant

I must also add that I am extremely disappointed with how this thread has been handled. Posters were rightly carded/banned for calling the claimant a liar but countless posters have been given free reign to call or suggest that these men are rapists and criminals despite the clear outcome of the court case.

Mrsmum wrote: »

So the next time a man is up on a rape case in more or less the same circumstances and let's pretend you know him, will you be saying to him what the hell did you and your mate end up in a room with a drunk woman for, didn't you see what happened to PJ ? Because you see men need to mind themselves just as much as women don't you think. A rape charge doesn't go away even if found not guilty.

Eh...not sure what you're trying to say.

but id put more onus on men when drunk girls are around not to be raping them, than the girls not to be letting themselves get raped, as is my experience of being in the company of other drunk men and women and no one saw fit to go and rape someone. Its rather easy not to rape someone i find. Men generally have a predilection for consensual sex.

But i agree with the bold bit.
Thereafter, it certainly doesnt when its not allowed by certain people
.

NAGDEFI

Before we judge anyone we have to put ourselves in their shoes.

I often look at documentaries on sports teams, usually rugby ones like Ireland's Grand Slam 2009, Ireland Rugby-Reaching for Glory 2007 and Living With Lions, 1997. I'm often amazed at how childish the behaviour of grown men in their 20s and 30s appears. They do seem to be in a cocoon, different from the normal mortgage paying, 9-5 worker of similar age.

In the 2007 documentary on Irish rugby a group of highly grown men were in hysterics after painting a black moustache on Rala, the kit man. From the outside they looked like big children. It wasn't funny..cringe stuff.

I don't know maybe when you're in camp for a long time you find release in childish acts. I was the same age as those players in 2007 and if any of the lads in my social group did stuff like that they'd be told to grow up to fcuk fairly quickly. No matter what way i looked on it the professional sports group seemed very different to the outside world.

I wonder if you had a documentary on a ladies professional sports team would the behaviour be similar? I've never looked at one. The Dublin ladies gaa one from last year represented amateur girls. I saw it alright.

Fann Linn

JRant wrote: »

I must also add that I am extremely disappointed with how this thread has been handled. Posters were rightly carded/banned for calling the claimant a liar but countless posters have been given free reign to call or suggest that these men are rapists and criminals despite the clear outcome of the court case.

Women Good.
Men Bad.

anewme

surprised and disappointed at the inadmissible evidence in this case. It's just another element the circus that this has become.

Very odd that people are saying that having their contract terminated is a good thing? Barred from playing for your province and country for lack of personal accountability?

Irrespective of the pay out, the shame of having your contract terminated due to your poor personal behaviour will effect the two guys lives and their mental state as well as financial well being.

Sponsors (even twice removed) from this were being targeted.

I'm not surprised they got terminated and they have no one to blame but themselves. Zero sympathy. Even if they are being used as examples.

But it's done now, let it go. Enough. They've all paid the price and EVERYONE involved in this should be allowed now put it behind them and rebuild their lives however they can.

All of them.

joe40 wrote: »

I am not deliberately misunderstanding your point. I have already said there is nothing wrong with giving advice but not in relation to specific event.
Are you saying that a woman should never go back to guys house after a night out. If she does and is assaulted she is responsible in some small way. The word "responsible" is your word.
I will tell my son not to walk home after a disco if he does he might get beat up.
If he goes against my advice walks home and gets beat up, do you think I will put any responsibility on him. No I won't. Responsibility lies solely with the criminal

Go ahead and rear your daughters. Tell them that in the event they get drunk and end up in a strangers bedroom then it is the person who assaults her that is solely responsible. Woo hoo.

The sad fact she still ends up being either treated badly, assaulted or raped.

But hey, nothing she could have done about it. The feminist message hadn't reached the ears of that particular bad person. :rolleyes:

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Absolutely not. It is perfectly fine to talk about personal responsibility to groups of teenagers, for parents to talk about it with children etc. Plenty of nights I would be reluctant to walk home.
Here is the important bit when you are talking about or investigating a specific incident. the victim has no responsibility.
There is a massive distinction. I'm people like francie don't get it

So someone has ZERO responsibility in any circumstances?
Im not talking about a specific incident you may or may not realise before weighing in with your absolutism

Maybe i shlould do this differently
1.No one deserves to be raped. ( I think w can agree)

2.If there is something you can do to mitigate the risk if being raped, you should do it.
(Do you agree or disagree)

3. If someone (wilfuly or unbeknownst to them) does something that exacerbates the risk of being raped, is she in anyway responsible for being raped? No. (We agree?)

But is she in anyway responsible for placing herself in this position? (Is this where we disagree?)
Im not asking did she faciltate her being raped, rather is she in any way responsible for ensuring her own safety? Could she have excercised some precaution?
Bear in mind the whole issue of consent, and when is sex rape.
We agree people should excercise caution, as you said, you would be reluctant to walk home.
Youre concious of risk to your safety.

Theres workplace accidents/incidents all the time despite HSA , H+S trainging, and while there may or may not gave been negligence, on occaision the victim/injured may have done something that exacerbates the risk to themselves.

I dont think anyone in this thread, or indeed on boards has said someone deserves to be raped. Ever.
But if we all want to reduce incidents of rape, in addition to sex education ( including the principle of consent), i think we need to include and emphasis behaviours. Included in this would be behaviours that might lead boys to rape.
Its not victim blaming or apologising for rape. Its an attempt to lessen the chances of a boy raping a girl, or a girl being raped by a boy.

Points 1,2 and 3 I agree with.
It is this sentence that you use which for me sums up the danger of your position

"behaviour s that might lead boys to rape"

No girl (or boy for that matter) can engage in behaviour that would lead someone else to rape. That is classic
"victim blaming" (I usually detest buzz words but that fits)
I'm all for teaching personal responsibility but you are never responsible for the behaviour of someone else.
That is not absolutism.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

I am not deliberately misunderstanding your point. I have already said there is nothing wrong with giving advice but not in relation to specific event.
Are you saying that a woman should never go back to guys house after a night out. If she does and is assaulted she is responsible in some small way. The word "responsible" is your word.
I will tell my son not to walk home after a disco if he does he might get beat up.
If he goes against my advice walks home and gets beat up, do you think I will put any responsibility on him. No I won't. Responsibility lies solely with the criminal

Go ahead and rear your daughters. Tell them that in the event they get drunk and end up in a strangers bedroom then it is the person who assaults her that is solely responsible. Woo hoo.

The sad fact she still ends up being either treated badly, assaulted or raped.

But hey, nothing she could have done about it. The feminist message hadn't reached the ears of that particular bad person. :rolleyes:

Are you for real, I have said several times I'm all for giving advice. My kids will scared to leave the house for all the advice they will get.
But god forbid something does happen they will have no responsibility. How is that so hard to understand

NAGDEFI

JRant wrote: »

Now do tell, how is a man to defend himself, if say, there is regret on the woman's part the following day and she decides to go to the police. As you have rightly pointed out, the result of any ensuing court case is redundant as once accused you are forever more a rapist #Ibelieveher. In fact a court case isn't even necessary, just the mere allegation and your life is ruined.

As a parent of teenagers you should be worried. No matter how well you raised them they could easily find themselves in such a situation and where will you stand then?

To all those wallowing in delighted, enjoy your moment but if you think outrage brigade will stop there you are sadly mistaken.

That's a very well made point.

My opinion all along was i didn't like the language in the messages etc. I found them crude, derogatory and so on.

But to all these #extreme groups you have gone too far.

You have to accept a court verdict. Also no one knows what happened only the parties involved and with alcohol etc they mightn't be too sure. So to go around calling someone a rapist on the basis of..guesswork? Seriously wrong.

Mrsmum

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So someone has ZERO responsibility in any circumstances?
Im not talking about a specific incident you may or may not realise before weighing in with your absolutism

Maybe i shlould do this differently
1.No one deserves to be raped. ( I think w can agree)

2.If there is something you can do to mitigate the risk if being raped, you should do it.
(Do you agree or disagree)

3. If someone (wilfuly or unbeknownst to them) does something that exacerbates the risk of being raped, is she in anyway responsible for being raped? No. (We agree?)

But is she in anyway responsible for placing herself in this position? (Is this where we disagree?)
Im not asking did she faciltate her being raped, rather is she in any way responsible for ensuring her own safety? Could she have excercised some precaution?
Bear in mind the whole issue of consent, and when is sex rape.
We agree people should excercise caution, as you said, you would be reluctant to walk home.
Youre concious of risk to your safety.

Theres workplace accidents/incidents all the time despite HSA , H+S trainging, and while there may or may not gave been negligence, on occaision the victim/injured may have done something that exacerbates the risk to themselves.

I dont think anyone in this thread, or indeed on boards has said someone deserves to be raped. Ever.
But if we all want to reduce incidents of rape, in addition to sex education ( including the principle of consent), i think we need to include and emphasis behaviours. Included in this would be behaviours that might lead boys to rape.
Its not victim blaming or apologising for rape. Its an attempt to lessen the chances of a boy raping a girl, or a girl being raped by a boy.

Everyone should mind themselves because the risks are high on both sides. Now personally I think regarding nitelife and all that it involves, the ageold system whereby women are the gatekeepers is one which suits men down to the ground. It suits the vast, vast majority of normal men because it means every night out is a merry night out. They can get as drunk as they like, pick up anyone, push to get in the gate, if they do yippee but next day to excuse their beer goggle choice she's only a slut anyway and same again the next night. If they don't get in the gate they can have a great time trying and indeed still pretend to their mates they got with a slut. I suppose that's all no big deal, It's just life, isn't it. Unfortunately this system also suits the rapists out there because if she hasn't minded all her Ps and Qs, she's partly responsible in the eyes of the public and how will she prove it anyway since she was lax about minding the gate. Women on the other hand are told to chose between giving in to their passions or minding themselves because if it goes pearshaped it's their fault. This case might bring it home to men the risks for them selves too.

hatrickpatrick

joe40 wrote: »

I will tell my son not to walk home after a disco if he does he might get beat up.
If he goes against my advice walks home and gets beat up, do you think I will put any responsibility on him. No I won't. Responsibility lies solely with the criminal

To be fair, I personally have no sympathy with the personal responsibility argument, but your hypothetical isn't as outlandish as you might think - my own parents have frequently warned me against walking home alone at night, particularly if I was staying in certain areas of Dublin which they regard as unsafe. And I have absolutely no doubt that if I happened to get the sh!te beaten out of me in one of those places after ignoring that advice (which I do basically all the time as I personally find it hysterical and paranoid), they'd have sympathy for me sure but they'd definitely also have a note of "I told you so, be more careful in future" about it.

I don't agree with any of this personally, but I'm just pointing out that it is possible for a lad to be given the same advice (don't walk home alone at night, Dublin can be an unpleasant place) and for those close to him to subsequently say "Sorry it happened, but what the f*ck were you doing" if something goes wrong.

I don't think it's nearly as much of a gendered issue as people make out. It's frankly ridiculous how often my parents have lectured me about the dangers of walking home alone from a nightclub in Dublin. I went to college in Dublin 8 and I was constantly told how basically every street one of my friends lived on was somewhere dangerous which I really shouldn't be wandering around in alone - Dolphin's Barn, Cork Street, New Earl Street, Augustine Street, South Circular Road from the Barn to Rialto, Crumlin, etc. The "be very careful, fellas in the inner city would beat you up just for looking at them wrong - would you not get a taxi or a lift with someone?" speech was delivered on an almost weekly basis before they eventually gave up and realised that I was somewhere between fearless and idiotic regarding Dublin. And I'm a pretty big guy all things considered. I don't think any of this is unique to Dublin, it's probably found all over Ireland.

Ideologically I don't agree with the arguments about personal responsibility but I do think it's a massive stretch to always attribute them to gender. I think actually that a lot of it is more generational than anything, in other words that Generations X and previous were perhaps a lot more cautious about life in general than the "YOLO" generations Y and Z. So when something like this happens, their gut reaction is "God, I would never have done something so risky". Most people my age - male or female - self-censor their stories about last night for their families specifically because they want to avoid the "God almighty, that's so dangerous!" lecture. It's not as much of a gendered thing as is widely believed.

joe40 wrote: »

Are you for real, I have said several times I'm all for giving advice. My kids will scared to leave the house for all the advice they will get.
But god forbid something does happen they will have no responsibility. How is that so hard to understand

Yes, they are not responsible for the actions of others, but they are responsible for being there - i.e. their own actions.

Unless the assaulter/rapist comes around to the house and collects them.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Uncharted

Absolutely disgraceful decision by the IRFU.

I'm appalled at their weakness in bowing to the howling feminazi brigade.

I can only hope that PJ and SO end up with significantly larger wage packets in their future employment, to compensate them both for the loss of their international careers.

Although 4 years abroad to hone their skills and then return to the international fold could hopefully still be on the cards for them.

Here's to them both. All the best lads

joe40 wrote: »

Points 1,2 and 3 I agree with.
It is this sentence that you use which for me sums up the danger of your position

"behaviour s that might lead boys to rape"

No girl (or boy for that matter) can engage in behaviour that would lead someone else to rape. That is classic
"victim blaming" (I usually detest buzz words but that fits)
I'm all for teaching personal responsibility but you are never responsible for the behaviour of someone else.
That is not absolutism.

Do you disagree with this position so:
A boy might take too much alcohol /drugs, and is therefore unable to (reasonably per law!) determine the sex may be nonconsensual.

My advice therefore to him would be dont drink , take too much drugs whereby your judgement may be impaired

How is that dangerous?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Are you for real, I have said several times I'm all for giving advice. My kids will scared to leave the house for all the advice they will get.
But god forbid something does happen they will have no responsibility. How is that so hard to understand

Yes, they are not responsible for the actions of others, but they are responsible for being there - i.e. their own actions.

Unless the assaulter/rapist comes around to the house and collects them.

Why is that so hard to understand?

So how do you envisage this whole dating, relationship thing to work out. At what stage should a woman be able to trust a man enough to be alone in a room with him. The 2nd date, 3rd date, after marriage?
Boys want to go with girls, girls want to go with boys (or whatever combination) why do you want to stop that cause some men (mostly men) can't behave themselves. Did you ever go home with a woman after a night out, I know I have.

joe40 wrote: »

So how do you envisage this whole dating, relationship thing to work out. At what stage should a woman be able to trust a man enough to be alone in a room with him. The 2nd date, 3rd date, after marriage?
Boys want to go with girls, girls want to go with boys (or whatever combination) why do you want to stop that cause some men (mostly men) can't behave themselves. Did you ever go home with a woman after a night out, I know I have.

You are willfully missing the point spectacularly or just deflecting, I am not quite sure.

Carry on Joe. I live in a real world, not some idealised utopia were certain things should happen.
That nobody in the public realm has criticised/passed comment on the dangers of young girls getting drunk and ending up in a strangers bedroom, alone is the real tragedy.

Even tonight there will be the same thing happening all over the country.

Specialun

some posts by mrsmum on this thread have been absolute cringe. if the kids that she teaches take a fraction of her views then i feel for them.

[Deleted User]

Uncharted wrote: »

Absolutely disgraceful decision by the IRFU.

I'm appalled at their weakness in bowing to the howling feminazi brigade.

I can only hope that PJ and SO end up with significantly larger wage packets in their future employment, to compensate them both for the loss of their international careers.

Although 4 years abroad to hone their skills and then return to the international fold could hopefully still be on the cards for them.

Here's to them both. All the best lads

They bowed to sponsors. Nothing to do with morals, wrongdoing or any other excuse. The lads behaved like prats. The sponsors are worried that the might be painted with the same prattish brush and their balance sheets suffer as a result.

The lads need take time out and review their lifestyles. Their behavior wasn’t acceptable in any society. Disrespectful at best.

The girl, too needs review her behavior. If drink led to her downfall, then cut it out.

There are no winners here. All losers. The players. The girl. The teams they played for. The sponsors. The families.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

So how do you envisage this whole dating, relationship thing to work out. At what stage should a woman be able to trust a man enough to be alone in a room with him. The 2nd date, 3rd date, after marriage?
Boys want to go with girls, girls want to go with boys (or whatever combination) why do you want to stop that cause some men (mostly men) can't behave themselves. Did you ever go home with a woman after a night out, I know I have.

You are willfully missing the point spectacularly or just deflecting, I am not quite sure.

Carry on Joe. I live in a real world, not some idealised utopia were certain things should happen.
That nobody in the public realm has criticised/passed comment on the dangers of young girls getting drunk and ending up in a strangers bedroom, alone is the real tragedy.

Even tonight there will be the same thing happening all over the country.

We're going to have to agree to disgree bit for the record I have a 12 year old son And 14 year old daughter and i'm very aware of the real world and it scares me ****less at times. But 2 questions
Did you ever end up in a room with a strange girl after a night out?
Was it a real tragedy?

Silentcorner

Uncharted wrote: »

Absolutely disgraceful decision by the IRFU.

I'm appalled at their weakness in bowing to the howling feminazi brigade.

I can only hope that PJ and SO end up with significantly larger wage packets in their future employment, to compensate them both for the loss of their international careers.

Although 4 years abroad to hone their skills and then return to the international fold could hopefully still be on the cards for them.

Here's to them both. All the best lads

They're ability to negotiate a good deal is significantly weaker than it would normally be.

I hope Stuart Olding in particular gets to fulfill his potential, in this whole sorry affair, he is the only one who showed genuine regret at what happened, the statement his solicitor read out was handwritten by him, he showed a bit of humility which should be recognised, humility in this case is a very good first step toward ultimate redemption (by maybe returning to the Irish team at some point).

Mrsmum

Specialun wrote: »

some posts by mrsmum on this thread have been absolute cringe. if the kids that she teaches take a fraction of her views then i feel for them.

Brave little person behind the screen aren't you. At least I took part in the discussion and gave viewpoints which are my own.

Deleted User wrote: »

They bowed to sponsors. Nothing to do with morals, wrongdoing or any other excuse. The lads behaved like prats. The sponsors are worried that the might be painted with the same prattish brush and their balance sheets suffer as a result.

The lads need take time out and review their lifestyles. Their behavior wasn’t acceptable in any society. Disrespectful at best.

The girl, too needs review her behavior. If drink led to her downfall, then cut it out.

There are no winners here. All losers. The players. The girl. The teams they played for. The sponsors. The families.

And the message to all our children is, if you make a mistake, you will pay for it with your career and good name because sponsors will squawk about morals something something.

joe40 wrote: »

We're going to have to agree to disgree bit for the record I have a 12 year old son And 14 year old daughter and i'm very aware of the real world and it scares me ****less at times. But 2 questions
Did you ever end up in a room with a strange girl after a night out?
Was it a real tragedy?

So if nothing happens to her with me, it is safe to keep repeating the behaviour? Is that where you are going with this? :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

We're going to have to agree to disgree bit for the record I have a 12 year old son And 14 year old daughter and i'm very aware of the real world and it scares me ****less at times. But 2 questions
Did you ever end up in a room with a strange girl after a night out?
Was it a real tragedy?

So if nothing happens to her with me, it is safe to keep repeating the behaviour? Is that where you are going with this? :rolleyes:

I am seriously asking you how women and men should behave on nights out in relation to "getting off" with each other as they used to say in my day. I'm not trying to be awkward but are you saying a girl shouldn't go back to a guys house unless she wants full sex. I'm not trying to catch anyone out or deflect, i'm being serious. When I was younger plenty of nights would have been like that

joe40 wrote: »

I am seriously asking you how women and men should behave on nights out in relation to "getting off" with each other as they used to say in my day. I'm not trying to be awkward but are you saying a girl shouldn't go back to a guys house unless she wants full sex. I'm not trying to catch anyone out or deflect, i'm being serious. When I was younger plenty of nights would have been like that

I am not saying any such thing.

Go back and read what I said.