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Thinking of getting into farming, any advice?

RoboRat

I'm a city boy but I married a farmers daughter and he is at retirement age. He has 3 daughters and nobody willing to take over the farm. I was never really interested, in all honesty I never really considered it, but I have been increasingly thinking about it and being honest, it really excites me.

I have a good job, I'm 40 and been working in marketing for over 20 years. I also have my own side business which is doing well. The farm would be modest, I don't know the actual acreage but there are about 7 good size fields. My father-in-law is a beef farmer and he is very good at it, he gets excellent prices for his herd at the marts and is highly regarded.

I'm not a typical office type, I actually like hard manual work and getting stuck in - I completely gutted and restored my first house and learned as I went, all done after work or the weekends and it was an absolute wreck.

I am just fed up with working in offices and office politics and dealing with corporate types. Most job's in my field are based in Dublin and I don't want to go back to 4 hours commuting each day. I am also looking at our childcare costs and thinking there is a lot that could be saved there, if I was based at home.

I know that farming is hard work but I also know I think differently to my father-in-law and I would be focused on profitability and I would also like to diversify the farm and not just focus on beef. I would like to incorporate a micro brewery on the farm (I brew my own cider) and get some pigs to feed the apple scraps to. I would also like to have a smaller herd of premium cattle and there are several high quality hotels in the vicinity that I think I could sell to. Along with the livestock, I would like to look at growing oyster mushrooms, truffles and garlic. I'm not even sure if this kind of diversity is possible and I would probably have to cull my ideas significantly.

Am I completely mad to consider this, is it possible for a 40 year old to go into farming? I am sure my father-in-law would jump at the chance and he would be at hand to help guide me. I would also have to do the green cert and learn quite quickly. I have read some articles about people (some with marketing backgrounds) successfully going into farming and making it work very well.

Any advice or feedback would really be appreciated, especially from someone who has gone into farming late in life.

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Burning Tires

Muckit wrote: »

Everytime l see this thread title l keep thinking to myself the simple answer is ..... 'Don't!'

Horrid negative though!!

And if you still do.... buy a boat first.

Defunkd

I like farming. It is a vocation though (or a life sentence, for those who think of it that way) and at times i'd love to have a 9-5, with regular payments and be able to down tools and wash my hands of it until monday morning.
There's a lot of time consuming, little jobs that you're not aware of yet and in your mind you might be juggling too many balls before you've even picked up the one, if you get my point. Not trying to discourage you but let's be realistic.

I've planted high value trees in areas that supposedly won't support them and they are thriving. I won't see any economic benefit from them but the future grandkids - when they have kids of their own, hopefully - will.
Another idea for you could be to grow some of the high value salads to sell directly to the restaurants along with your beef. A friend does that from a lean-to and he only gives a few minutes a day to it. I don't know the profit margin but he's doing it with nearly 7 years, so it must be beneficial to both parties.

Spend more time working on the farm and ask questions. Ask 'why...?' a lot and listen to what you're told. If you like it, go for it.

Green&Red

I’d be the opposite, why wouldn’t you go for it, you’ve a great attitude which is half the battle and the experience of you father in law to fall back on.

I would issue one word of caution. Taking over a farm is hard work on relationships. You’re taking over someone else’s life work, they are emotionally invested in it more than anything you’ll have ever seen before.
There is a transition period where it goes from him making the decisions to you. It can cause a lot of rows. I’ve a very easy going dad and it still causes rows between us. Case in point for me this week where I wanted to sell hoggets to the factory, he thinks they are too nice to be slaughtered and should be sold to someone who will breed them. That’s profit v’s tradition in action.

At some stage you’ll have a big blow out, can your relationship handle it? No matter how sound ur father in law might be ur not blood and it will be his farm til the day he closes his eyes. Good communication is key but you need to be prepared for the fights

The best of luck

Muckit

Everytime l see this thread title l keep thinking to myself the simple answer is ..... 'Don't!'

Horrid negative though!!

deSelbyM

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

I look for quality first.

that doesn't mean I'll pay a ridiculous price for beef but I don't mind paying more for a premium product.
I've bought Aldi and Lidl meat before - (albeit the 'normal' range) and the ended up throwing them out.
I also don't mind paying a bit extra to a local butcher for meat from a local farmer. I like the fact that my money is staying local

I would be the same. I always buy beef from the local butcher, preferably one with their own slaughterhouse or farm.
Unfortunately we are in the minority.

memorystick

Fair play for thinking of getting into farming. My advice is simple. Don't listen to negativity, watch the chequebook and never lose sight of your off farm income. There's no rich road in farming but you can make a go of it. Best of luck.

BrianBoru00

deSelbyM wrote: »

Make sure that you can sell the whole carcass. Restaurants will probably buy sirloin and fillet steaks and not much else. It could be very difficult to find a customer for the rest of the carcass if the premium cuts have already been sold to restaurants.

I also think that you're overestimating how much extra people are willing for beef of a certain breed. Most people look at the price first and quality is second place.

You have good ideas and you're not afraid of hard work, I'm sure you'll do well.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

I look for quality first.

that doesn't mean I'll pay a ridiculous price for beef but I don't mind paying more for a premium product.
I've bought Aldi and Lidl meat before - (albeit the 'normal' range) and the ended up throwing them out.
I also don't mind paying a bit extra to a local butcher for meat from a local farmer. I like the fact that my money is staying local

deSelbyM

Make sure that you can sell the whole carcass. Restaurants will probably buy sirloin and fillet steaks and not much else. It could be very difficult to find a customer for the rest of the carcass if the premium cuts have already been sold to restaurants.

I also think that you're overestimating how much extra people are willing for beef of a certain breed. Most people look at the price first and quality is second place.

You have good ideas and you're not afraid of hard work, I'm sure you'll do well.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

Siamsa Sessions

Best of luck with the endeavor - life is short so give it a lash. If it all goes belly up, you’ll recover and “not die wondering” as Eddie O’Sullivan called his book (or something like that)

Have a look at LEADER funding as well. They have various schemes to help rural development and food enterprises. If you’re used to selling, then grant applications will be no bother to you.

ganmo

The one thing I’d say is to check the broadband in the area. dogey broadband is gd annoying

kowtow

RoboRat wrote:

Beautiful packaging will make you buy a product, a beautiful product will make you buy it again.

Absolutely. And by definition you are limited in the quantity you can produce, so let the product speak for itself and concentrate on selling out every season at a decent price!

The story and the land and the technique are part of the product of course, and the packaging will help convey that but in Ireland there is way too much emphasis on fancy packaging... it's sometimes a security blanket for a customer who wants to spend money but lacks confidence in their own ability to tell good from bad.

It's notable that retailers in London and New York are asking for less and less.. sometimes no.. packaging at the luxury end of the stores at the moment. We're a bit behind over here, still patting ourselves on the back for putting our own bodyweight in waste plastic on to a boat for China every year.

RoboRat

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Absolutely.

I’m paying €14.95/kg for ‘homemade’ butter from up the road.
He also makes his own sea salt that he uses in the butter. Simply delicious.

Terroir.

Beautiful packaging will make you buy a product, a beautiful product will make you buy it again.

Gawddawggonnit

kowtow wrote: »

What you must remember about the farm business you contemplate is that your product is made unique.. and therefore valuable.. not by it's packaging or even by your marketing skills (although both will be essential to tell it's story properly).

What makes your product unique is the piece of land it comes from and the care and attention taken to produce it. Anybody with a budget can copy your packaging, or develop an equally attractive brand, but your land is unique.

Your job is to make sure your products taste uniquely of your land.

Absolutely.

I’m paying €14.95/kg for ‘homemade’ butter from up the road.
He also makes his own sea salt that he uses in the butter. Simply delicious.

Terroir.

Muckit

RoboRat wrote: »

Haven't asked but I know a Farrier through a friend and he said he would give me a good price to butcher, if the butcher can't. As I said, I would have to plan it out a bit better.

I will have to disagree there, it's not the be all and end all but I worked with a company that was struggling and I eventually got them to agree to change their packaging... within 5 months they hit €1 million in sales and have been growing since and there was no change to the product, just the packaging.

People are very superficial and easily swayed. Manys the time its the fancy cardboard that goes in the bin that we are buying into. Very sad in a lot of ways.

arctictree

A very important part of this would be sorting out earlier on what happens with the SFP, ANC etc. Your FIL may be more than willing to hand over the running of the farm to you but you getting the payments may be a different story. I suppose you could see it as rent for the farm! And its very hard to make any money on livestock sales alone.

kowtow

RoboRat wrote:

I will have to disagree there, it's not the be all and end all but I worked with a company that was struggling and I eventually got them to agree to change their packaging... within 5 months they hit â‚¬1 million in sales and have been growing since and there was no change to the product, just the packaging. Another business had very generic packaging and sales were low, when I redeveloped the new packaging, sales increased over ten fold and are still growing, again, no change to the product. Packaging is only one part of the picture, but its an important part, but only if it's done right, especially in tandem with an overall marketing strategy.

What you must remember about the farm business you contemplate is that your product is made unique.. and therefore valuable.. not by it's packaging or even by your marketing skills (although both will be essential to tell it's story properly).

What makes your product unique is the piece of land it comes from and the care and attention taken to produce it. Anybody with a budget can copy your packaging, or develop an equally attractive brand, but your land is unique.

Your job is to make sure your products taste uniquely of your land.

RoboRat

Does that butcher kill on a small scale as well? I.e. farm to fork? Or would you have to factory animals and have him bring out and process them?

Agreed if you can get a steady chain of farm traceable beef selling through five butchers that would be a good start but have you spoken to the butcher about the level of premium he can return to you and on what parts of the carcass? If you aren't going to handle or sell the beef past the lairage then you won't require any food approvals but you may find that you've discovered an expensive way to give a butcher a small USP.

You can try and capture the premium through a food outlet of your own, but you'll either have to buy your own meat back from the butcher or deal with the FSAI... you'll be surprised how strict they are in that respect even for things like eggs, and that's after you have the normal food premises permissions. What I am trying to stress here is that farm supplied food is seen as a definite risk area by regulators here and they don't encourage it!

Haven't asked but I know a Farrier through a friend and he said he would give me a good price to butcher, if the butcher can't. As I said, I would have to plan it out a bit better.

My own advice would be not to place too much faith in packaging and marketing and concentrate on what makes a truly unique and luxury artisan product worth paying more for. We make some such products here (non food as well) and export all over the world. We are often asked by the press and the business schools to talk about the importance of packaging and nowadays we tell them not to give a damn for it. Make the best product in the world which chimes with the values of customers who are willing to pay up and you can sell it in a brown paper bag...

I will have to disagree there, it's not the be all and end all but I worked with a company that was struggling and I eventually got them to agree to change their packaging... within 5 months they hit €1 million in sales and have been growing since and there was no change to the product, just the packaging. Another business had very generic packaging and sales were low, when I redeveloped the new packaging, sales increased over ten fold and are still growing, again, no change to the product. Packaging is only one part of the picture, but its an important part, but only if it's done right, especially in tandem with an overall marketing strategy.

kowtow

RoboRat wrote:

I have no plans on butchering on site so the FSAI is not an issue in that regard, my wife's friend is a butcher with 5 stores so I would work with him, I would purely be looking after the sales and marketing end. I also have a lot of contacts in high end hotels so I would be looking down that line and basically cutting out the middlemen and going direct with premium local produce.

Does that butcher kill on a small scale as well? I.e. farm to fork? Or would you have to factory animals and have him bring out and process them?

I would suggest that small scale high welfare abbatoirs are a fundamental requirement of premium farm to fork beef. In Ireland we sometimes take this 'all about the marketing" a little bit *too* far... If it really was all about the marketing the world would be queuing up to buy fresh Irish dairy products at a decent premium and we wouldn't be drying such a massive proportion of our milk for the powder holds.

Agreed if you can get a steady chain of farm traceable beef selling through five butchers that would be a good start but have you spoken to the butcher about the level of premium he can return to you and on what parts of the carcass? If you aren't going to handle or sell the beef past the lairage then you won't require any food approvals but you may find that you've discovered an expensive way to give a butcher a small USP.

You can try and capture the premium through a food outlet of your own, but you'll either have to buy your own meat back from the butcher or deal with the FSAI... you'll be surprised how strict they are in that respect even for things like eggs, and that's after you have the normal food premises permissions. What I am trying to stress here is that farm supplied food is seen as a definite risk area by regulators here and they don't encourage it!

That said, it is all doable one way or another.

My own advice would be not to place too much faith in packaging and marketing and concentrate on what makes a truly unique and luxury artisan product worth paying more for. We make some such products here (non food as well) and export all over the world. We are often asked by the press and the business schools to talk about the importance of packaging and nowadays we tell them not to give a damn for it. Make the best product in the world which chimes with the values of customers who are willing to pay up and you can sell it in a brown paper bag...

gaz wac

im getting excited for you and I just happen to click on this thread as it was the latest post ;-) love your ideas and really hope it works out for you if you decide to go for it!!

RoboRat

Oh the greatest profit is by far the commuting, I have been offered big money jobs but it involves 30% international travel and I am not doing that.

In regards to the family, both sisters are in IT, making big bucks and being honest, they're very close and they want their father to retire but at the same time, hate the idea of someone else on their home. It's a conversation that would have to happen if I go down this line, but I need to work on what I plan first.

In regards to the childminding, my son is in Primary school and my daughter is going to creche next year (2 free years), my wife is a primary school teacher so she is back home around 3pm so I would only be required to mind them for 2 hours tops.

In regards to scalability, everything is scalable as long as the ends justify it, and that will only really become apparent down the line. I would research potential business partners before I pull the trigger and see if there is an opportunity first - no point in having grand plans when there is no requirement and it's best to suss this out before.

I have no plans on butchering on site so the FSAI is not an issue in that regard, my wife's friend is a butcher with 5 stores so I would work with him, I would purely be looking after the sales and marketing end. I also have a lot of contacts in high end hotels so I would be looking down that line and basically cutting out the middlemen and going direct with premium local produce.

The FSAI would only need to be satisfied with the Cider Microbrewery and there an old large derelict cottage on site that could be brought up to standard. We are lucky to have a natural spring on the farm too, so we have USP's for the product, organic apples & natural spring water but all in all, it's all about the marketing and that is where I excel, the small craft brewers wouldn't have access to someone with my experience and that's not being big headed.

jus_tin4

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are a lot of trade offs involved.
Keeping animals ties you to the land somewhat.

You say you want to maximise profitability but earlier you say you don't want to commute - it is possible that you can achieve both but what happens if the greatest profit is from continuing to commute?

Practically you don't own this land and neither does your wife.
Will your father in law be happy with some of his land being planted?
Will your wife's sisters be happy with you taking over?
Will you pay a rent to your father in law?
Depending on who eventually inherits it will you be happy to pay rent to or buy out your wife's sisters?

I like the cider idea and the plans to capture the added value from your produce and would be interested to see how it works out.

Edit: I think you are not costing your own labour and how scalable some of these activities will be.
How will you be running a farm, starting a new cider business, running your existing business and minding children at the same time?

This would be my biggest concern op! While everything is great in the planning stage, and you have the experience and by the sounds of it to make it work, but most farms/inheritances always come with some sort of major hold out! The problems this poster mentioned is very similar to the situation I’m currently in

kowtow

RoboRat wrote:

I know that beef is his comfort zone and it will probably be the back bone of the farm but at the same time, I think there are a lot of other avenues that have never been explored that could easily be run in tandem by reducing the herd.

Selling beef direct is the most challenging part of this from a red tape perspective. There are also many who will tell you that the market does not exist in Ireland.

In my experience the FSAI vary in their attitude from mildly obstructive to actively hostile when it comes to that sort of proposal although a lot may depend on individual locations. For all the bord bia video plamass, We have allowed our regulators to run away with the idea that food is an inherently dangerous substance which they must protect the public from. You may feel after speaking to them that you would have more chance of selling a new type of home made electricity direct to the nearest village via your own pipes.

Turn your attention early to this area and work out whether it can be done and what is involved.

The microbrewery bit is quite a well trodden path and should pose no problem although the market is quite crowded.

You'll need to decide whether you can achieve the necessary differentiation without going organic.

I know of people selling organic pork at a premium but my own butchers tell me they cab get no premium at all for rare breed / organic.

[Deleted User]

There are a lot of trade offs involved.
Keeping animals ties you to the land somewhat.

You say you want to maximise profitability but earlier you say you don't want to commute - it is possible that you can achieve both but what happens if the greatest profit is from continuing to commute?

Practically you don't own this land and neither does your wife.
Will your father in law be happy with some of his land being planted?
Will your wife's sisters be happy with you taking over?
Will you pay a rent to your father in law?
Depending on who eventually inherits it will you be happy to pay rent to or buy out your wife's sisters?

I like the cider idea and the plans to capture the added value from your produce and would be interested to see how it works out.

Edit: I think you are not costing your own labour and how scalable some of these activities will be.
How will you be running a farm, starting a new cider business, running your existing business and minding children at the same time?

RoboRat

kowtow wrote: »

Go for it.

You may need to slow down your thinking a little bit and develop a lot of patience!

Livestock (mine anyway) love the idea of business plans but mainly as a source of fibre when they run out of baler twine to eat. They will cooperate in your vision but in their own sweet time.

On farm infrastructure development.. dairies, breweries etc. does not need to be expensive but it does take a lot longer than just going to the bank and paying up, especially when it must be done alongside all the routine farm work. We're just finishing the upgrade of a milking parlour in which we have been milking all the while... packing up every day to make space for dump buckets is soul destroying especially with everything else the way it is this spring.

We also have another business here, quite a well known manufacturing / consumer goods operation. One surprising challenge is the tension between two demanding businesses which both demand time.. both with very different ROI profiles.

Most of all... and I mean this is the nicest possible way... be careful not to diminish your Father in Laws traditional farming approach when enthusing about your future plans. I've been at this a few years now and I am constantly, daily, reminded of how unbelievably skilled most traditional farmers are. The range of issues farmers deal with under enormous stress and with life and death consequences leave even the high pressure office jobs in the cheap seats.

You are looking at the farm through the prism of profitability, nothing wrong with that, it's admirable - but it's going to take a lot more than profits to make a farmer of you and you may find you have a lot to learn, and a lot of mistakes to make, before you can even begin to think about improving on what you might be lucky enough to start with.

Best of luck and definitely go for it.

Thanks for this, it's very insightful and I know that I need to reign myself in. At the moment my mind is in overdrive with ideas and I need to sit down and plan it out in a realistic fashion. I am usually quite pragmatic in my expectations and I have learned through experience to plan effectively. It will have to transition over time and it's not something that I can just implement immediately.

The cider microbrewery is something that I have experience with and I know the variables, albeit on a smaller scale. For example, I brew 30L of cider and it takes me less than 2 hours of labour in total. Selling it wholesale would net me around 80% margin and still gives the retailer 50-60% margin on top of that. Obviously I would have to get certification, insurance, pay tax and the initial outlay of getting the premises up to FSAI standards.

Then there is the pulp being made into chutney's/ jams which again could net around 80% margin selling direct or 50% margin selling to retail.

I completely agree in regards to the father in law and there will be a fine line to balance to not seem to be dismissing his values whilst also trying to work to my plan. This as you know, will be one of the hardest challenges. He is a very skilled farmer and it would be a massive mistake not to use his experience.

I know that beef is his comfort zone and it will probably be the back bone of the farm but at the same time, I think there are a lot of other avenues that have never been explored that could easily be run in tandem by reducing the herd.

I also cant ignore the savings of €1,000 per month that could be made from having no childminder and also the fact the my business is running quite well and requires little time, I'm turning over around €900 profit per month and there is a lot of room to improve on those figures.

RoboRat

Thanks for the replies folks and for the very positive feedback and advice. I'm delighted that you can see where I am coming from and I am very much focused on a farm to fork approach, albeit without the actual restaurant.... but I wouldn't rule that out either (I love to cook).

Realistically, I am looking to maximise profits so for example, if I set up the microbrewery, I would have an orchard and use those apples for cider, the apples being crushed for their juice and the remains being used for chutney/jam and also for pig fodder. The idea is minimal wastage and maximum profit and sell directly to shops/ restaurants/ pubs/ farmers markets etc.

Likewise with the herd of cattle, focus on maximum price by choosing the more expensive breeds and rearing a smaller herd of them and really looking after them, then get them butchered and sell directly to premium butchers, restaurants, pubs.

Also looking at the likes of unique and profitable product like truffles, garlic etc and ensuring there is enough diversity that I am not tied to a specific market, this should cover me by spreading the risks and not aligning to one specific market.

I have been looking at the business models of a few very successful farms that have changed tact, Keogh's & Keelings being great examples, who are taking more control over their produce and incorporating manufacturing processes and marketing into their strategy and doing very well as a result.

I know that this will be a huge task and lots of mistakes will be made, but I do have a lot of business experience and it really excites me.

kowtow

Go for it.

You may need to slow down your thinking a little bit and develop a lot of patience!

Livestock (mine anyway) love the idea of business plans but mainly as a source of fibre when they run out of baler twine to eat. They will cooperate in your vision but in their own sweet time.

On farm infrastructure development.. dairies, breweries etc. does not need to be expensive but it does take a lot longer than just going to the bank and paying up, especially when it must be done alongside all the routine farm work. We're just finishing the upgrade of a milking parlour in which we have been milking all the while... packing up every day to make space for dump buckets is soul destroying especially with everything else the way it is this spring.

We also have another business here, quite a well known manufacturing / consumer goods operation. One surprising challenge is the tension between two demanding businesses which both demand time.. both with very different ROI profiles.

Most of all... and I mean this is the nicest possible way... be careful not to diminish your Father in Laws traditional farming approach when enthusing about your future plans. I've been at this a few years now and I am constantly, daily, reminded of how unbelievably skilled most traditional farmers are. The range of issues farmers deal with under enormous stress and with life and death consequences leave even the high pressure office jobs in the cheap seats.

You are looking at the farm through the prism of profitability, nothing wrong with that, it's admirable - but it's going to take a lot more than profits to make a farmer of you and you may find you have a lot to learn, and a lot of mistakes to make, before you can even begin to think about improving on what you might be lucky enough to start with.

Best of luck and definitely go for it.

kerryjack

Go for it, chances are you will make a right go of it. You won't be carrying any negative bagage in to the enterprise. Your lucky enough my OH has 4 sisters and there all mad for farming

Muckit

Oh and sponsor all local GAA and sports clubs. You can supply the gear and print the name of your farm brand on the jerseys.... great advertising from pics in local press and you will get the goodwill of the conmunity behind you!!

Muckit

Diversity is the name of the game really now in farming. Some of us are too stuck in our ways or are blinkered because of our traditional farm upbringing. l think you have as much of a chance, if not perhaps a better chance of making a go of things due to your background in business. Returns are poor from conventional small livestock farms (excluding dairy). Taking back control of the butchering, processing and marketing and adding value is the way to improve returns from limited acreage. It will not be easy and will be hard work but you're more than up for that. You have to play to your strong skill set also. The animal husbandry side of things u will pick up quickly from experience and mentoring from your father in law. l think u will embrace the challenge and find it rewarding and therapeutic in equal measure.

Best of luck!!

alps

RoboRat wrote: »

We're in the process of building our house just on the edge of the main body of farmland.

My business is a sports apparel company and I have built it to the stage where it requires little management - I design the gear, the production is done in Pakistan and all sales are done online; We have outsourced fulfillment that warehouses the stock and manages the deliveries. I only have to manage the stock and look after custom designs and marketing... realistically, I have been holding the brand back as I wasn't able to deal with the demand previously when I was looking after fulfillment too.

I also have the fall back of 20 years plus marketing experience and I have been asked to do consultancy work before, so I do have a bit of a safety net there.

I don't know if I have an aptitude for farming but my father in law has many times commented on how surprised he is by my work ethic. I would like to add to what the farm does down the line, such as using the old derelict farmhouse as a micro brewery, I think there are lots of opportunities, but it will require a lot of planning and strategy to get it right. I know my father in law likes to work in his comfort zone which is beef, whereas I would be more open to trying new things and looking at stats and markets.

I think the best thing to do is to talk to the father in law and perhaps start spending more time up there to get a better feel for the farm but I was interested to see what people thought - is there room for diversity in farming and more importantly, is there a viable income.

Your approach is refreshing RoboRat.. all your commentary above is marketing and end product related, whereas most guys taking up farming end their thought process at the produce point.

Sell first , then produce it....

I would really like to see the likes of yourself have a go at something like this...

You are actually vastly more experienced to assess this proposal than most if us here on this thread as our judgement will be limited to the rewards of selling to the manufacturer...