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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

ancapailldorcha

This thread is for continuing the discussion of the recent Belfast rape trial. The old thread can be found here.

Thanks,
The AH mods.

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Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

If my son was one of the kids involved, I would be the person taking responsibility for his actions, not passing the buck to Paddy Jackson.

To be fair although he's got nothing to do with the school in cork there are people here who think he bears no responsibility for his own actions. the guys a fecking role model for some people here.

upandcumming

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair although he's got nothing to do with the school in cork there are people here who think he bears no responsibility for his own actions. the guys a fecking role model for some people here.

[Deleted User]

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair although he's got nothing to do with the school in cork there are people here who think he bears no responsibility for his own actions. the guys a fecking role model for some people here.

He has a responsibility for what he does in public and what he does on a rugby pitch.

It is no ones business what he does in his bedroom and what messages he sends in private to his friends (or more to the point the messages his friends send that he is now responsible for).

That is the same standard applied to you and I, and it is the same standard that should be applied to him.

It won't happen this way, but that is the way it should be.

If anyone thought for a second that the wider group of defendants attitudes towards women were acceptable, they certainly shouldn't have any doubt now.

I really have absolutely no idea why the actions of school kids in Cork are even in the news, it's a matter for parents and teachers. Shining a media spotlight on a situation involving children, especially with the heightened atmosphere in the country right now is deeply irresponsible in my opinion.

givyjoe

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair although he's got nothing to do with the school in cork there are people here who think he bears no responsibility for his own actions. the guys a fecking role model for some people here.

Id say you're misrepresenting a fair few people here with that nonsense.

The only relevant point you made is :

Grayson wrote: »

...he's got nothing to do with the school in cork ....[/B]

jm08

upandcumming wrote: »

And what makes them the authority on anything?

In a nutshell:

Rape Crisis Network

The Rape Crisis Network (RCNI) is a multi-member political and campaigning organisation committed to the elimination of all forms of sexual violence through effecting political, cultural and social change.
Our agenda to effect change is directly provided by the experience and expertise of our member Rape Crisis Centres (RCCs).
Our vision is a society where rape and all other forms of sexual violence no longer exists.

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre
http://www.drcc.ie/about-us/

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Meanwhile, in a school in Cork.

School launches investigation after 'sexual assault list' posted in boys toilets

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/school-launches-investigation-after-sexual-assault-list-posted-in-boys-toilets-36800398.html

Send them to France and claim a Twiiterati feminist victory?

Roger Hassenforder

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair although he's got nothing to do with the school in cork there are people here who think he bears no responsibility for his own actions. the guys a fecking role model for some people here.

To be fair too, i dont think many have him on a pedestal after his and his buddies antics, where they came accross as dicks.
but that said he shouldn't lose his livelihood and career. He was acquitted. Therefore he should be returned to the same state he was in before being charged, albeit not know for being very "respectful" of women in his private life.
This is very unpalatable for the #ibelieveher mob who are insisting on their pound of flesh.

jimmycrackcorm

meeeeh wrote:

I have no intention digging into anyone's private life but their private life is not private it's public because of the trial. That's the difference.

Given that they remain innocent of the accusations in court, then it calls into question why their private messages should have been made public.

The standard that they are being held to implies that it works be OK to leak private data and messages of public figures.

jm08 wrote:

I'd imagine the bank owned his home computer as well.

Soddens case was coincidentally raised by the unhappy IT dept that he was outsourcing to HP.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

She was specifically talking about the derogatory way that the men discussed woman in the texts. She wasn't talking about the court case. The only think she said was that they were acquitted of all charges.

No she wasn't she was on to respond to the extra information about the trial released yesterday.
Then she proceeded to use the events as a stick to beat all men involved in rugby. Not one mention about how a woman can behave responsibly either.
Her remit is to prevent rape and to support the victims of it.
She used her position to have a good old arrogant feminist rant

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

If my son was one of the kids involved, I would be the person taking responsibility for his actions, not passing the buck to Paddy Jackson.

The parents need to take responsiblity for the kids, but parents need the help of the rest of society and decent role models to bring up decent young human beings.

Take for example Conor McGregor as a role model. I bet most young men & women think he is great, while their parents think he is a bit of a mouth (being kind to him).

upandcumming

jm08 wrote: »

In a nutshell:
The Rape Crisis Network (RCNI) is a multi-member political and campaigning organisation committed to the elimination of all forms of sexual violence through effecting political, cultural and social change.
Our agenda to effect change is directly provided by the experience and expertise of our member Rape Crisis Centres (RCCs).
Our vision is a society where rape and all other forms of sexual violence no longer exists.

So they want all of these things? You still haven't told me why they are an authority though?

Just because they are campaigning for the elimination of sexual violence, have an agenda and a vision, it doesn't make them an authority on anything though. And I agree with them! I want an end to sexual violence.

Ronald McDonald probably has similar views on sexual violence, it doesn't make him an authority on anything other than Big Macs.

irishproduce

Mrsmum wrote: »

Seriously. you are boring me now. We all have to cut our cloth and if I was accused of something whereby I needed legal representation I would chose one that I could afford. If I could afford nothing I would apply for legal aid and put up with whoever I got. If I thought I needed the big boys or gals I would beg, borrow or steal so to speak to afford them. And if I was found not guilty I would say "didn't I do the right thing engaging X to represent me" and I would never for one moment think someone else should pay my bill from my chosen expensive lawyer.

I think Mrsmum is going through a poor event of rationalisation and it is going very wrong.

[Deleted User]

jm08 wrote: »

The parents need to take responsiblity for the kids, but parents need the help of the rest of society and decent role models to bring up decent young human beings.

Take for example Conor McGregor as a role model. I bet most young men & women think he is great, while their parents think he is a bit of a mouth (being kind to him).

If you are relying on total strangers to bring up decent human beings then you've already failed.

By all accounts, point to the discipline and hard work that goes into being a professional sports person, but don't try and project integrity and wholesomeness onto people you don't know, you will be disappointed.

ArthurDayne

meeeeh wrote: »

I have no intention digging into anyone's private life but their private life is not private it's public because of the trial. That's the difference.

I'm fairly realistic about kids but it's my job they don't grow into men like those on trial and that is the job I tend to try to achieve.

I do apologise if I am appearing confrontational here but digging into peoples' private lives is exactly what you are advocating. If someone secretly records you in your home and puts it online without your permission and the entire world sees you crawling your house pretending to be a cat, that is still your private life notwithstanding that it has been made public knowledge. Just because the details of a trial are made public knowledge does not change the fact that the acts took place in one's private life.

Again, I applaud your second point. I wish you every success in your endeavour to teach your kids to behave in such a way where they will be able to avoid situations that might land them in a courtroom. That is a perfectly responsible pursuit. I do hope however, genuinely, that if your kids careers lead them into the public eye and they have a regrettable sexual encounter and say some mean and dirty things about someone -- that their mother / father is not the first person to call for them to be deprived of their career and to be labelled sexual deviants.

I do sincerely hope that you never end up in the position where you have to be consistent in your beliefs when it comes to your own children.

But I don't have kids -- so what would I know eh?

jm08

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No she wasn't she was on to respond to the extra information about the trial released yesterday.
Then she proceeded to use the events as a stick to beat all men involved in rugby. Not one mention about how a woman can behave responsibly either.
Her remit is to prevent rape and to support the victims of it.
She used her position to have a good old arrogant feminist rant

She was brought on to address Willie John McBride's comments.

Ms Blackwell was responding to calls from former Ireland rugby international Willie John McBride and others for the reinstatement of Mr Olding and Mr Jackson after they were found not guilty raping a 19-year-old woman in south Belfast in June 2016.

Noeleen Blackwell is a fairly distingushed career as a Human Rights lawer and as a former Director General of Free Legal Aid. You won't get away so easily dismissing her as a 'feminnazi', 'mob' or the usual stuff you use to try and denigrate people.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/flac-boss-noeline-blackwell-to-move-to-rape-crisis-charity-1.2506804

NAGDEFI

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Repeating a point over and over again doesn't mean that everyone has to just agree with you. You are pushing a fairly absolutist view on this -- which is really unhelpful.

The problem I, and many others, have with this view that Jackson & Co should just automatically be deprived their careers is that, if we were to establish a police state where all of our actions, remarks, jokes and errors of judgement were audited and published -- then I would venture that many seats in many offices and other workplaces, currently sat in by otherwise good law-abiding people, would be emptied.

You may believe in your heart and head that this girl was raped, or if not maybe you simply believe that it is wrongdoing enough for a girl to be left distraught and for guys to joke about it. On face value it is certainly cruel. On face value it is callous. On face value it is something which is neither admirable nor worthy of respect. But to say that behaving in such a way privately should automatically deprive someone of their livelihood seems excessive.

This is all the more so as the facts and circumstances of the case do appear to strongly suggest that this poor girl, though she was drunk and may not have ordinarily acted as she did, wound up taking part in a group sex act. This is not to say that her honest perception of not having consented is any way false, but there is a strong case for suggesting that this perception was supplemented more from regret and embarrassment rather than not having consented. I'm not saying this as some undeniable truth -- but the case for finding that there was a rape just was not compelling on the evidence.

The fact that their careers involve representing Ireland in sport, or that you have seemingly appointed yourself the mouthpiece of popular Irish opinion, are irrelevant because rights are rights. We have a rule of law in this country and the rule of law has been applied on this trial. The defendants are presumed innocent under the law and that presumption remains intact from the 'not guilty' verdict.

Exactly. So stop repeating the point that a twitterati group are forcing Jackson and Olding out of a job. It's not true. 2/3rds of the irish public don't want them representing Ireland. Not these twitter groups who have taken over the country, by all accounts.

It's you and your ilk are shoving Jackson and Olding on us. Because they didn't commit rape doesn't mean we have to accept their language and standards and have them representing our country.

So stating a point contrary to yours is 'unhelpful'. Since when were threads on alleged rape supposed to be helpful and have a cathartic effect? So you shouldn't post an opinion here unless it's helpful??? What a stupid statement.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

If you are relying on total strangers to bring up decent human beings then you've already failed.

''it takes a village to raise a child''
Hilary Clinton even wrote a book about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

By all accounts, point to the discipline and hard work that goes into being a professional sports person, but don't try and project integrity and wholesomeness onto people you don't know, you will be disappointed.

You forgot to mention 'Respect' which is an integral part of rugby. Whether they like it or not, sports people are role models and that is one of the reason why they get sponsorship - people want to wear the same footwear as they do, drive the same cars, basicially copy what they do. People want selfies with them. You see them doing charity work, visiting kids hospitals - that is to portray a wholesome image as well as do some good.

[Deleted User]

Noeleen Blackwell has a lot of integrity. I've had the pleasure of speaking with her on a number of occasions and I would respect her a lot.

The information she has access to and the stories she would hear regularly are the stuff of horror. What the rape crisis centres have to deal with is staggering and awful. There are a lot of people here who would have their attitudes softened a good deal by spending a day seeing victims first hand.

Having said that, I don't think anyone has any business holding the defendants to account for their private messages. We've all said things we have since grown out of, we all have held opinions and attitudes that we now look back on with disdain. We have all held prejudices that we've walked away from. Let he who casts the first stone etc etc.

I don't believe the defendants respect themselves anymore than they respect women. It's ironic that they seek women who are open minded about sex yet call them 'sluts' but consider themselves 'top shaggers'. Really what they want are women who are just like them, the finger they use to point out a 'slut' can just as easily be turned on themselves.

I've said it before, the way these people change is by meeting someone who doesn't accept their behaviour. Someone they want to change for. Or they socialise in a different group and realise pretty quickly that the bravado is done and it's time to grow up.

Anyone losing sleep over the whats app comments had better invest in some strong prescription sleeping tablets because the men and women around you probably have similar enough on their phones. The complainant in this trial certainly did.

BBDBB

jm08 wrote: »

She was brought on to address Willie John McBride's comments.

Noeleen Blackwell as a fairly distingushed career as a Human Rights lawer and as a former Director General of Free Legal Aid. You won't get away so easily dismissing her as a 'feminnazi', 'mob' or the usual stuff you use to try and denigrate people.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/flac-boss-noeline-blackwell-to-move-to-rape-crisis-charity-1.2506804

How many Ireland caps has she won?

Willie John McBride has 63 (11 as captain)

I think he knows a bit more about the responsibility of playing for Ireland, what it means to wear the shirt and represent your country

I have to concede that in a court of law she probably has him beaten hands down, but the trial is over. Theres an internal investigation being conducted where Noeleens opinion counts for little and WJMc doesnt count for very much either

Evd-Burner

Where are these statistics coming from?

NAGDEFI

Poster ArthurDayne has requested we only post helpfull posts.

I think the cat is well and truly out of the bag Arthur and even the most well meaning, altruistic poster is unable to come up with some verbal garbage that will prove helpfull to any parties at this point.

Anyone with any helpfull answers please send them by postcard to either Paddy Jackson, Belfast or Stuart Olding, Belfast.

Prizes include 3 free nights out in Ollies.

[Deleted User]

jm08 wrote: »

''it takes a village to raise a child''
Hilary Clinton even wrote a book about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

You forgot to mention 'Respect' which is an integral part of rugby. Whether they like it or not, sports people are role models and that is one of the reason why they get sponsorship - people want to wear the same footwear as they do, drive the same cars, basicially copy what they do. People want selfies with them. You see them doing charity work, visiting kids hospitals - that is to portray a wholesome image as well as do some good.

That book has virtually nothing to do with role models and everything to do with how government policy effects Children. I could probably guess the words you put into google to get that as a result.

I agree that respect is an integral part of rugby. I'm sure Jackson has plenty of charitable work under his belt. I'm sure there are other rugby players that have done charity work that also have some pretty sordid stuff in their private communications. Respect their talent and attitude on the pitch, but don't be foolish and rely on these people to teach your kids anything about morality.

My kids hear the name Johnny Sexton and you have their immediate attention, but they learn how to respect women by seeing how much I respect their mom. By all accounts let your kids get the same boots, but encourage them to be their own person.

jm08

upandcumming wrote: »

So they want all of these things? You still haven't told me why they are an authority though?

Just because they are campaigning for the elimination of sexual violence, have an agenda and a vision, it doesn't make them an authority on anything though. And I agree with them! I want an end to sexual violence.

Ronald McDonald probably has similar views on sexual violence, it doesn't make him an authority on anything other than Big Macs.

Sorry, I thought everyone knew what the Rape Crisis Centre did - there is a clue in the name.

Briefly, they actually deal with victims of sexual abuse. Have a look at their website - for instance, they have an advice section on 'reporting, the law and medical care'. They are considered the authority on sexual violence and are funded by Irish Government with centres all over the country.

http://www.rapecrisishelp.ie/

BBDBB

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Poster ArthurDayne has requested we only post helpfull posts.

I think the cat is well and truly out of the bag Arthur and even the most well meaning, altruistic poster is unable to come up with some verbal garbage that will prove helpfull to any parties at this point.

Anyone with any helpfull answers please send them by postcard to either Paddy Jackson, Belfast or Stuart Olding,Belfast.

Prizes include 3 free nights out in Ollies.

Seeing as we are going in that direction...

These lads are going to need some Equality and Diversity training

Id like to be the first to offer my services to run courses for everyone involved in rugby

"Role Modelling and How to do it"

encompassing

How to have fun without it turning into a merry go round
The correct way to extend an invitation to group sex so that no one is offended
Txting full disclosure like you mean it
How to dress for trial
How to apologise sincerely for being put through hell for two years
When does Not Guilty mean Guilty - OJ's law
Paying the price for your mistakes.... and for everyone elses too

Book now and get a free place for your kit man on our latest course " The Acceptable method for an underwear parade"

ArthurDayne

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Poster ArthurDayne has requested we only post helpfull posts.

I think the cat is well and truly out of the bag Arthur and even the most well meaning, altruistic poster is unable to come up with some verbal garbage that will prove helpfull to any parties at this point.

Anyone with any helpfull answers please send them by postcard to either Paddy Jackson, Belfast or Stuart Olding, Belfast.

Prizes include 3 free nights out in Ollies.

I don't like getting into these petty spats and I was in the process of responding to your previous comment, but I see you have since sent this further post. All I will say then is that I did not say that having a different opinion is unhelpful -- rather taking an absolutist stance is unhelpful. You have more or less confirmed how unhelpful it is with this strange post -- where you have read what I said, interpreted it a completely black-and-white way and put all sorts of words into my mouth.

I am more than happy to debate but it is quite impossible where you are quoting me for things I have neither explicitly nor implicitly said or suggested.

For the sake of other contributors here -- perhaps we should not respond to eachother as it is clear it will only descend into tit-for-tat commentary.

NAGDEFI

BBDBB wrote: »

Seeing as we are going in that direction...

These lads are going to need some Equality and Diversity training

Id like to be the first to offer my services to run courses for everyone involved in rugby

"Role Modelling and How to do it"

encompassing

How to have fun without it turning into a merry go round
The correct way to extend an invitation to group sex so that no one is offended
Txting full disclosure like you mean it
How to dress for trial
How to apologise sincerely for being put through hell for two years
When does Not Guilty mean Guilty - OJ's law
Paying the price for your mistakes.... and for everyone elses too

Book now and get a free place for your kit man on our latest course " The Acceptable method for an underwear parade"

And the bonus course for Paddy, apology timing. Not a week after your mate has done it and he was commended. You'd expect better from an international outhalf.

NAGDEFI

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I don't like getting into these petty spats and I was in the process of responding to your previous comment, but I see you have since sent this further post. All I will say then is that I did not say that having a different opinion is unhelpful -- rather taking an absolutist stance is unhelpful. You have more or less confirmed how unhelpful it is with this strange post -- where you have read what I said, interpreted it a completely black-and-white way and put all sorts of words into my mouth.

I am more than happy to debate but it is quite impossible where you are quoting me for things I have neither explicitly nor implicitly said or suggested.

For the sake of other contributors here -- perhaps we should not respond to eachother as it is clear it will only descend into tit-for-tat commentary.

Absolutist.. There are 2 options for the players over the summer tour and autumn. Either they are allowed play with Ireland or not. Any decision has to be absolutist.

jm08

BBDBB wrote: »

How many Ireland caps has she won?

Willie John McBride has 63 (11 as captain)

I think he knows a bit more about the responsibility of playing for Ireland, what it means to wear the shirt and represent your country

I have to concede that in a court of law she probably has him beaten hands down, but the trial is over. Theres an internal investigation being conducted where Noeleens opinion counts for little and WJMc doesnt count for very much either

Willie John is old school. What rugby players got away with back in the 60s/70s, they wouldn't now (i.e., pissed drunk, smashing up hotels etc.). IRFU got it wrong over a tour to SA during apartheid as well. Willie John lead World XV as manager as late as 1989 during apartheid (I don't think there were any Irish players on it). He certainly didn't always got it right.

NAGDEFI

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I don't like getting into these petty spats and I was in the process of responding to your previous comment, but I see you have since sent this further post. All I will say then is that I did not say that having a different opinion is unhelpful -- rather taking an absolutist stance is unhelpful. You have more or less confirmed how unhelpful it is with this strange post -- where you have read what I said, interpreted it a completely black-and-white way and put all sorts of words into my mouth.

I am more than happy to debate but it is quite impossible where you are quoting me for things I have neither explicitly nor implicitly said or suggested.

For the sake of other contributors here -- perhaps we should not respond to eachother as it is clear it will only descend into tit-for-tat commentary.

Possibly a time could be allowed, a 2 year absence or something. But a decision has to be made Arthur. Don't worry i don't do tit for tat but didn't really understand what you meant.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

That book has virtually nothing to do with role models and everything to do with how government policy effects Children. I could probably guess the words you put into google to get that as a result.

Its a well known proverb (of African origin used by Hilary Clinton).

I agree that respect is an integral part of rugby. I'm sure Jackson has plenty of charitable work under his belt. I'm sure there are other rugby players that have done charity work that also have some pretty sordid stuff in their private communications. Respect their talent and attitude on the pitch, but don't be foolish and rely on these people to teach your kids anything about morality.

The problem is that they are teaching kids about morality anyway by example - the wrong kind.

Whether they like it or not, their texts got into the public domain. They are not children anymore and would be influencers on younger / academy players in Ulster Rugby.

My kids hear the name Johnny Sexton and you have their immediate attention, but they learn how to respect women by seeing how much I respect their mom. By all accounts let your kids get the same boots, but encourage them to be their own person.

I bet PJ & his pals respect their mothers. But they have been able to objectify women, probably from watching porn.