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Should gay conversion therapy be banned in Ireland?

freshpopcorn

At the moment it's illegal for minors to attend this type of therapy but I think the government are extending the ban access to it for all adults.
I support the ban for minors and probably for adults but some people might have to travel or be forced to countries where these therapies are legal if we do ban it for whatever reason.
I don't believe these therapies work but then again I don't really know much about.

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freshpopcorn

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He could never imagine living with a lad and being happy.
He says he did the right thing and is happy now.

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gmisk

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I agree sounds like a brilliant ask me anything!

freshpopcorn

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gmisk wrote: »

I agree sounds like a brilliant ask me anything!

He never met a gay guy he got on with compared to his fiancée. They've so much in common and get on great. He just felt like a complete outsider and simply wasn't happy.
I could go into my detail about the stuff he said but it would be considered homophobic.

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freshpopcorn

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He basically found the gay guys very camp/bitchy and he felt out of place. He did try it for a few years and never settled down despite trying and he didn't see any future staying in surrounded by men who he had no connection with what's so ever. He could barely tolerate these guys over a few drink not to mention enter a relationship with one of them.
Going home, working locally, doing, getting involved more in the macra, having a few pints locally was what he wanted and then he ran into somebody one night he got on with and now there together.

gmisk

freshpopcorn wrote: »

He basically found the gay guys very camp/bitchy and he felt out of place. He did try it for a few years and never settled down despite trying and he didn't see any future staying in surrounded by men who he had no connection with what's so ever. He could barely tolerate these guys over a few drink not to mention enter a relationship with one of them.
Going home, working locally, doing, getting involved more in the macra, having a few pints locally was what he wanted and then he ran into somebody one night he got on with and now there together.

I can relate to gay guys being camp/bitchy sometimes, especially on gay scene.
I think a lot of the gay sports groups, film clubs etc can be a real help with meeting people you might have more in common with as well.

I had a small group of really good gay friends which really made all the difference, if not I would think it could be a lonely and soul destroying place at times.
It sounds like he is happy and thats the main thing.

Rory28

freshpopcorn wrote: »

He basically found the gay guys very camp/bitchy and he felt out of place. He did try it for a few years and never settled down despite trying and he didn't see any future staying in surrounded by men who he had no connection with what's so ever. He could barely tolerate these guys over a few drink not to mention enter a relationship with one of them.
Going home, working locally, doing, getting involved more in the macra, having a few pints locally was what he wanted and then he ran into somebody one night he got on with and now there together.

I imagine he met these types in his late teens early 20's. They were, i suspect, in the same boat as him but expressed it differently. For a lot of gay people college is their first time away from home and the first time they don't have to hide who they are. It is very common for young gay people to play up stereotypes in order to "fit in" as it were. For the most part this does not last long but I can see why your friend would not like it as it is a bit full on.

I hate to use this term but your friend is a "straight acting" gay/bi guy. I am too and I also felt the worry of maybe all gay guys are camp and I'm a freak. I was hilariously wrong.

freshpopcorn

Rory28 wrote: »

I imagine he met these types in his late teens early 20's. They were, i suspect, in the same boat as him but expressed it differently. For a lot of gay people college is their first time away from home and the first time they don't have to hide who they are. It is very common for young gay people to play up stereotypes in order to "fit in" as it were. For the most part this does not last long but I can see why your friend would not like it as it is a bit full on.

I hate to use this term but your friend is a "straight acting" gay/bi guy. I am too and I also felt the worry of maybe all gay guys are camp and I'm a freak. I was hilariously wrong.

I think that was another thing that got to him he met up with guys who said they were straight acting and they weren't his own age. Even a few older guys who were into their thirties. He found them false and were just looking for sex.
Going by your post I'm glad things worked out for you.

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freshpopcorn

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Just out of interest - what age approx is your friend?

I think prior to the mid 90s when it was actually a criminal offence to have anal sex that a lot of gay men repressed themselves for fear of public victimisation (certainly there was a lot of beatings etc when I was in college for "out" gay men), but then when that changed it was an opportunity for all these people to be able to express themselves.

But as was much spoken about during the SSM referendum, being a gay man does not mean you are like Panty Bliss. Many gay men are straight acting.

He's 31-32 sligthly older than me.
He sinmply never experienced this straight acting gay man and I haven't either.
My brother says he's straight acting and he isn't.
He didn't grow up in an overly religious either.

mickrock

Wibbs wrote: »

I still wouldn't live with another bloke as a "couple"(or for that matter live with a woman as a couple with no "fc*uking" involved). The willy still wants what the willy wants.

What about the singer Tom Robinson, who in the 1970s had the hit "Glad To Be Gay". He ended up falling in love with a woman, having children and marrying her, although he says he still identifies as gay. I wonder what his willy actually wants.

kunst nugget

freshpopcorn wrote: »

He's 31-32 sligthly older than me.
He sinmply never experienced this straight acting gay man and I haven't either.
My brother says he's straight acting and he isn't.
He didn't grow up in an overly religious either.

I've met straight acting gay men - they're not really that rare a phenomenon.

I've also met the closeted gay guy in a straight relationship. His partner came home to find him in bed with another man. Absolutely devastated her. 15-20 years on, I don't think she's had a decent relationship since then.

the_syco

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I;d need to know more about the therapy to answer. If it's pray-away-the-gay, then yes. Banned. If not, unsure.

It's usually pray-the-gay-away + electric chock treatment; like what was used on the insane in the 50's and 60's.

paw patrol

JupiterKid wrote: »

Right. The views of pure homophobic hatred and ignorance expressed on this thread have sickened me to my stomach, as a gay man who struggled for years over my true sexuality.

I think this thread should be reported to the media. And hopefully it will.

Vile beyond belief.

get over yourself

I responded to you earlier in the thread but you never responded...which was fine till I saw this drivel.

freshpopcorn

kunst nugget wrote: »

I've met straight acting gay men - they're not really that rare a phenomenon.

I've also met the closeted gay guy in a straight relationship. His partner came home to find him in bed with another man. Absolutely devastated her. 15-20 years on, I don't think she's had a decent relationship since then.

That's good to know. I honestly haven't met any. I know of one sports player who's straight acting but people who knows him doesn't consider this.
Your friend is a cheater tough the guy I know wouldn't do this.

freshpopcorn

paw patrol wrote: »

get over yourself

I responded to you earlier in the thread but you never responded...which was fine till I saw this drivel.

I honestly still don't get why this thread should be reported to the media!

Mrs OBumble

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You are what sexuality you are. And no matter what you do, you cannot change that fact.
You can live with who you want, if that makes you happy, great! You can experiment and try everything. But gay conversion therapy doesn't say "be what you want to be", but " be what we tell you to be"
You cannot change or deny your fundamental orientation. That way lies misery and psychosis.

My observation would be sexuality is more of a continuum than a binary value. Most people are mainly attracted to either one sex or the other. But that doesn't mean they will never be attracted to anyone of a different sex from their primary preference. [Full disclosure: I identify as straight. But I've occasionally been strongly attracted to men and to women. I know other women who've said the same. And I know that in terms of a domestic relationship, intellectual and social compatibility is faaaaarrrrr more important than sex.]

Now I agree that there are gay-conversion therapy approaches that are obnoxious. But I don't believe that they necessarily have to be like that: it would be quite possible to have therapy which focusses on learning to accept who you are and live happily as yourself, without depending on a sexual relationship.

If an adult wants to learn to like broccoli instead of chocolate (to use an example from earlier in the thread) or to learn to focus their sexual energies on the opposite sex rather than the same sex - then I don't see why we should be banning therapy approaches to that. Provided they're a consenting adult.

JupiterKid

There are plenty of so called “straight acting” gay men. Probably more of these guys than the very camp, flamboyant ones. Look at sports men who have come out like rugby players Gareth Thomas, Keegan Hirst, rugby referee Nigel Owen, swimmer Ian Thorpe, footballer Tomas Hitzlsperger, canoeist Matt Lister that skier guy and Donal Og Cusack in the GAA. Just go on an app like scruff and you’ll see what I mean. a guy who played as a forward in my school rugby team is now married to his husband.

There are so many among the public with a very poor understanding of LGBT life and culture. It’s getting better, but still has a long long way to go.

Wibbs

mickrock wrote: »

What about the singer Tom Robinson, who in the 1970s had the hit "Glad To Be Gay". He ended up falling in love with a woman, having children and marrying her, although he says he still identifies as gay. I wonder what his willy actually wants.

Lord knows MR. Though one aspect of all this that has long fascinated me are the various studies into sexual orientation. Do a google and you'll find pages of stuff on heterosexual and homosexual research, but of bisexual folks the research is remarkably scant. What exists is almost entirely focused on women who are bisexual, the men are largely absent. Ditto for asexual folks. Which is somewhat puzzling given the opinion de jour is that sexuality exists along a spectrum and all that jazz*, yet the spectrum itself remains mostly off the table as far as solid research goes.

Maybe it's a cultural thing to some degree? I certainly have heard both gay and straight men regard bi men as somehow different, with a large side order of "why don't they make up their mind" going on. Though I've found that's much less prevalent among attitudes to bisexual women, where it's much more accepted among both gay and straight people as a "thing". If anything I've found wholly lesbian women get more static.

And I personally at least get that. I can understand being straight or gay, being defined by a gender you're viscerally attracted to. TBH I'm all adrift with folks who are attracted to both. So on some level I'd have more in common with a gay lad or lass and them with me, than I would with a bisexual lad or lass.

My only vague and likely miss headed conclusion over the years has been that bisexual folks are more emotionally rather than sexually driven as a primary attractant. So if they fall for the person, regardless of gender, the sexual follows from that? I can say on my part my first instinct is frankly a base one; I want to fcuk her. The emotion comes later. It might come along seconds later, or minutes, or hours, but it's always in second place.

JupiterKid wrote: »

There are plenty of so called “straight acting” gay men. Probably more of these guys than the very camp, flamboyant ones.

While I'd not be so sure JK - in my experience - about your latter sentence, I'd defo agree with your former.

Again in my experience, a helluva lot of the “straight acting” guys(less so gals) you describe were like that because of the social pressures and when they felt they could actually be who they felt they were they tended to go more "flamboyant" soon after. IMHO as an overcompensation in many ways. And bloody understandable too, as a goodly percentage, if not most have lived a life before that point in hiding from who they were, so it makes sense to revel in that new found freedom of sorts.

*I would personally believe that the "spectrum" is a lot less defined. That it breaks down in the majority to pretty clear I want this or I want that. With homosexuality the minority. Of bisexuality that's still a grey area.

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freshpopcorn

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Yes, he's a very rugged country guy.
He basically never met anybody he clicked with and even tough we didn't speak about it I think the bedroom department mightn't have being for him either.
He did what he thought was right for him at the time and is happy with with it.
I think what some people consider straight acting others wouldn't.

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freshpopcorn

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I wouldn't to be honest and doubt he'd say yes. We've only spoken about this a handful of times when we were drunk and it's not something I'd bring up with him.

[Deleted User]

freshpopcorn wrote: »

That's good to know. I honestly haven't met any.

Interesting enough I have a few gay friends. Most of them made since all the work and activism I did during the last referendum. Met some really great people in that time.

A couple of people I know recently said something similar to "I have not met any straight acting gay men" and I instantly asked them "Were you aware my friends xxxx and yyyy where gay?". They had no idea and were surprised to find out.

I wonder how often the reason people think they have not met any straight acting gay men - or have doubts about the ratios of the straight acting ones to the "camp" or "flamboyant" ones - is related to the fact that they just are not aware they have met them.

mickrock wrote: »

He ended up falling in love with a woman, having children and marrying her, although he says he still identifies as gay. I wonder what his willy actually wants.

It is not unheard of. The women I am in a relationship with identify as otherwise entirely straight too. Yet the emotional and physical connection they made when they met and developed since is as real as the one they each have with me. And anyone who newly learns about our relationship tends to say "oh you are bi then" and they deny this entirely. They identify as wholly straight.

I also hate tequila myself. Every single one I have tried has been awful to me. With the exception of one I was given at a recent house party which I really really enjoyed. I since bought a bottle - but I do not consider myself a tequila drinker.

While we might be constitutionally against certain interactions with certain groupings - the potential is always there that one individual example of that group is a sufficiently different outlier to the norm that it becomes something else to us.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There are lots of things in Ireland that exploit vulnerable people.

So? I have always found it a bit of a dodge when people ask "What should be done about this" and the answer is little more than "Well what about that thing over there". Why change the subject?

But yes - there are a lot of other exploitations of vulnerable people that should also be dealt with. The fact that some have not should not be a reason not to deal with others.

But I think there are two other factors that should be considered before comparing GCT with other exploitations.

One - is that this "therapy" can have harmful side effects. For example while telling people their haunted bread will save their soul - or that little bottles of water are actually medicine - is clearly nonsense it does not generally (there are exceptions) cause any harm other than put the exploited target out of pocket. Some forms of therapy however can genuinely leave a person worse off or badly harmed.

Two - is that some exploitations are aimed at genuine conditions. Water Medicine is exploiting the vulnerable sure - but generally for conditions they actually have. And one can even argue at the power of placebo. But the agenda of GCT is not just to cure a disease but to invent one too. They are in the business not just of claiming to cure Homosexuality - but to establish Homosexuality as a condition _to be cured_. Water medicine is not inventing your headache - only falsely claiming to cure it.

So yes - I agree with you there are other exploitations that need to be dealt with too. But with limited resources I think we can prioritise those that invent the disease along with the cure - and those that cause actual harm in their application beyond that of merely ripping people off their money.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder how often the reason people think they have not met any straight acting gay men - or have doubts about the ratios of the straight acting ones to the "camp" or "flamboyant" ones - is related to the fact that they just are not aware they have met them.

Very true. Plus an individual's "gaydar" varies a lot and how someone might see "camp" or "straight acting" varies a lot too.

It is not unheard of. The women I am in a relationship with identify as otherwise entirely straight too. Yet the emotional and physical connection they made when they met and developed since is as real as the one they each have with me. And anyone who newly learns about our relationship tends to say "oh you are bi then" and they deny this entirely. They identify as wholly straight.

This just doesn't compute for me TBH. Not the part about making emotional and physical connections with the same sex, but the part about doing so and then believing oneself wholly straight. I'd raise the same quizzical eyebrow if a gay lad I knew started a romantic/emotional relationship with a woman and still claimed he was wholly gay. It's akin to someone claiming to be a vegan but eats a rare steak once a week.

[Deleted User]

^ That is why I included the example of tequila too. I would absolutely not identify myself as a tequila drinker. Yet I imagine I am going to buy a few bottles of this particular one over the next 20 years.

I think when we identify with labels we gravitate towards labels that identify what we wholly or at least mostly are. But we do so knowing that those labels admit of exceptions at times. If you ask my partners if they are bi they would instantly tell you "No I am not sexually attracted to women. I am however sexually attracted to _her_". I would not say "I like tequila" but I would say "I like this drink right here".

I guess the point being that our attractions and subjectivity are not simply a small handful of Venn Diagrams. Any given individual fits into a multitude of Venn. And the attraction they feel for each other has zero to do with their position in the male/female Venn space. But to their membership of _other_ Venn spaces that actually do attract them. Ones that are important enough to them to override those that _other people_ are attempting to label them using.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

^ That is why I included the example of tequila too. I would absolutely not identify myself as a tequila drinker. Yet I imagine I am going to buy a few bottles of this particular one over the next 20 years.

Which I hate to break it you makes you a drinker of tequila.

I think when we identify with labels we gravitate towards labels that identify what we wholly or at least mostly are. But we do so knowing that those labels admit of exceptions at times.

On some matters I would agree, on others, in the instance sexual attraction/orientation that's a bit of a presumption. More than a touch of the old saw of "everyone is a little bit gay" stuff. I would never presume to suggest to someone who identifies as gay that "everyone is a little bit straight".

If you ask my partners if they are bi they would instantly tell you "No I am not sexually attracted to women. I am however sexually attracted to _her_". I would not say "I like tequila" but I would say "I like this drink right here".

Which again makes you a tequila drinker and them bisexual. OK in both cases of a particular object, but it still remains the case.

I guess the point being that our attractions and subjectivity are not simply a small handful of Venn Diagrams. Any given individual fits into a multitude of Venn. And the attraction they feel for each other has zero to do with their position in the male/female Venn space. But to their membership of _other_ Venn spaces that actually do attract them. Ones that are important enough to them to override those that _other people_ are attempting to label them using.

That's an opinion, research - and I don't mean early near quackery like Kinsey - appears to show that people are aroused by stimuli that conforms to how they self describe themselves. IE Gay men are consciously and subconsciously aroused by images of men, straight men are aroused by images of women. Women are the more interesting gender in this regard, where it has been found more are aroused by images they don't self identify as being attracted to. Again irritatingly people who self identify as bisexual are left out of the mix. Ditto for asexual folks.

Reati

It's funny but it's really not at the same time.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Which I hate to break it you makes you a drinker of tequila.

Not really. It depends what your Set is to make the definition. Of all the many many many things I drink - one single drink happens to be tequila. A positive hit on one member of a Set is enough to apply the label for you personally. I just do not think that is a useful linguistic heuristic in general. I suspect language would fall apart if we were to take that approach universally. But we do not seem to. Just in specific cases that happen to move us individually.

Wibbs wrote: »

More than a touch of the old saw of "everyone is a little bit gay" stuff.

Then I am somehow not communicating myself correctly as that would be exactly how I would _not_ describe what I am saying. Rather with my Venn/Sets dynamic what I am saying is that any individual falls into a number of Sets. And any number of those Sets could be what triggers sexual and-or romantic attraction.

I think the people who would consider someone like my partners "bi" despite them never being attracted to women before or since each other - are merely assuming that sexual attraction is based on one single Set. Gender. Whereas everything I know about them - or they describe in themselves - suggests their romantic and physical love is _despite_ their gender not because of it.

So it is not at all an "everyone is a bit gay" narration - as it is a "sexuality is based on memberships in more Sets than just gender" one. Perhaps sexual and romantic attraction can be triggered by membership in any number of sets - including but not requiring gender - and only a threshold must be reached for it to kick in.

Which would not _at all_ by incompatible with the paragraph you closed your post with. But since you mentioned research there have indeed been articles and studies done on showing that straight men are aroused by gay porn and vice versa. An article in Archives of Sexual Behavior for example. While a study from the University of Essex found straight women are likely to be turned on by both men and women. And there are good nerological reasons as to why this would be so.

Overall I think defining peoples sexuality by gender alone is likely too simplistic. And not in a "everyone has a bit of gay in them" way as you suggest - but in a "sometimes gender has less - little - or even nothing to do with it in certain people or in certain situations" kind of way.

But linguistically - to move away from sexuality - I also think that while the meaning of words should not be set in stone - very much the opposite - some threshold of consistency is required for a word to be meaningful or useful. And if someone is attracted solely and predominantly to the opposite sex with _one sole individual exception_ - then with strong pedantry I am sure we can call that person "bisexual" but I wonder if the word applied that loosely really leaves it meaning all that much at all or what anyone or anything could gain by even bothering to force the peg into that hole. Sometimes I fear people are more interested in clinging to making words fit - than caring what they are actually communicating. A divide between language purists and communication purists I suppose.