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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Quin_Dub

This thread is for the continuing discussion of Donald Trumps's presidency in the US and any related matters.

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Quin_Dub

Just watching CNN this morning and a contributor there made an interesting point.

The Attorney Client Privilege is a very important part of the US legal system(all legal systems in truth).

So - Mueller found something that concerned him enough to refer it to the Southern District of NY , that Guy , a recent Trump appointee also saw something so concerning that made him willing to go beyond that privilege. He in turn then went to an independent Judge with the evidence and that Judge also agreed that there was something there so important that he signed off on the warrant.

So Basically 3 separate Legal teams have all looked at whatever the information is and have decided that there is something so significant there that they are willing to potentially break one of the key elements of the legal system( Attorney/Client Privilege).

This could be huge.

[Deleted User]

enfant terrible wrote: »

Think Mueller has veered too far off Russia now and Trump is gonna fire him.

Looks like he's more interested in getting dirt on Trump than finding collusion.

It's like pulling loose threads. He has no idea where it leads but he has to follow them to do a proper investigation. Trump isn't exactly a model businessman so I'm sure Mueller is going to dig up lots and lots of information.

Also, apparently Trump was paid $150k to do an appearance for some Ukrainian billionaire.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/us/politics/trump-mueller-ukraine-victor-pinchuk.html#click=https://t.co/yydBI0xMq4

pitifulgod

enfant terrible wrote: »

Think Mueller has veered too far off Russia now and Trump is gonna fire him.

Looks like he's more interested in getting dirt on Trump than finding collusion.

We don't actually even know the full extent of what Mueller reported to the FBI, secondly any uncovered wrongdoing is something he will report. Finally this is a pretty useful way for him to get Cohen to flip on Trump.

Christy42

pitifulgod wrote: »

We don't actually even know the full extent of what Mueller reported to the FBI, secondly any uncovered wrongdoing is something he will report. Finally this is a pretty useful way for him to get Cohen to flip on Trump.

I am curious what he is after. Can't imagine we know what it is directly. I mean if we find out Trump lied about knowing about the Stormy contract then it is another on top of a mountain of lies. Hardly something Mueller cares about. Unless Cohen contradicts Trumps version of events a raid is hardly necessary to show Cohen entered his client into a contract without his client's consent so a raid is not needed there either.

Multiple legal teams have ok'd this so I am very curious as to what they have and if they found what they are looking for. We don't seem to have enough information to figure it out as is anyway.

[Deleted User]

circadian wrote: »

Also, apparently Trump was paid $150k to do an appearance for some Ukrainian billionaire.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/us/politics/trump-mueller-ukraine-victor-pinchuk.html#click=https://t.co/yydBI0xMq4

Here's the video of the talk he gave in 2015 https://youtu.be/S60nubH47Ac

Peregrinus

enfant terrible wrote: »

Think Mueller has veered too far off Russia now and Trump is gonna fire him.

Looks like he's more interested in getting dirt on Trump than finding collusion.

That's squarely within his terms of reference, though. His brief is to investigate not just "any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump", but also "any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation". So if his investigations turn up, say, undisclosed campaign contributions, he gets to investigate those, even if they are not campaign contributions from the Russian government. And of course the issue here is whether the payment to Daniels, intended to benefit Trump by avoiding embarrassment in the run-up to the election, was a campaign contribution.

There's a dilemma for Trump here. If Trump himself funded the payment to Daniels, that's not a campaign contribution that needs to be declared. But if, as both Trump and Cohen claim, Cohen funded it, then it probably is. (A campaign contribution doesn't have to be paid to the campaign; it's enough that it's paid to assist the campaign.) But if Trump reimbursed Cohen, or if there was an understanding or arrangement that he would, while that makes the campaign contribution issue go away, it kind of holes below the waterline Trump's claim that he never had an affair with Daniels, and was not aware of or involved in any arrangement to silence her.

Cohen has tried to straddle a rather awkward divide by saying that he used his own money to "facilitate" the payment to Daniels. That language does imply that someone other than Cohen was ultimately going to bear the cost of the payment, and Cohen was facilitating that person by providing short-term funds. Cohen hasn't (that we know of) said who that person was because, if it was Trump, that's embarrassing to Trump and, if it was anyone else, that's a campaign contribution issue. And that, I'm guessing, is what Mueller is trying to get to the bottom of.

As for Trump firing Mueller, leaving aside the political wisdom of doing that - firing Comey worked out so well for him, didn't it? - it's not at all clear that he can. According to the instrument by which Mueller was appointed, he can only be fired by the Attorney General or someone acting on his behalf, and since Jeff Sessions has recused himself this means that as matters stand only Rod Rosenstein can fire Mueller. Furthermore, he can only be fired for “good cause” (e.g. misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest). So Trump would have to fire Sessions and replace him with a non-recused Attorney General who would be willing to fire Mueller alleging some good cause, and Mueller (and many others) would head off to court to test the alleged goodness of the cause, and so the validity of the firing. It would be a complete sh!tstorm which would really not alleviate the pressure on Trump - more the opposite, really.

Trump is capable of saying and doing really stupid things, so he may well attempt to fire Mueller. But bear in mind that it was Nixon's attempts to get the special counsel investigating Watergate fired that triggered the collapse of his own presidency. Nixon actually succeeded in getting Archibald Cox fired, but it was a pyrrhic victory. I think it would be for Trump also.

VinLieger

enfant terrible wrote: »

Think Mueller has veered too far off Russia now and Trump is gonna fire him.

Looks like he's more interested in getting dirt on Trump than finding collusion.

No he found info not related to Russia and passed it off to someone else to take action on, your argument therefore makes no sense. Also like others have said he has no idea what will lead where,

The hypothetical scenario is quite simple, he might find dirt on someone that is completely unrelated to russia but that will allow him to put pressure on them that will lead him to someone that can then lead to someone else and so on, this is literally how investigating works.

FreudianSlippers

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Just watching CNN this morning and a contributor there made an interesting point.

The Attorney Client Privilege is a very important part of the US legal system(all legal systems in truth).

So - Mueller found something that concerned him enough to refer it to the Southern District of NY , that Guy , a recent Trump appointee also saw something so concerning that made him willing to go beyond that privilege. He in turn then went to an independent Judge with the evidence and that Judge also agreed that there was something there so important that he signed off on the warrant.

So Basically 3 separate Legal teams have all looked at whatever the information is and have decided that there is something so significant there that they are willing to potentially break one of the key elements of the legal system( Attorney/Client Privilege).

This could be huge.

We obviously don't know the specifics, but a few points on attorney/client privilege:

The privilege ony applies to communications made between the individual and the attorney;
The attorney must be actually acting as that individual's attorney at the time;
The privilege is waived in cases of commission of crime or tort

The really interesting thing about the final point is that the crime/tort must actually be committed for the privilege to be waived. Now, obviously that strengthens what Quin_Dub is saying - but theoretically, they could collect this evidence and then it may not be admissible in court due to the privilege (i.e. yes, I totally agree they would have had to clear a huge hurdle to obtain the warrant; but it doesn't mean that the privilege itself will be waived).

VinLieger

Christy42 wrote: »

I am curious what he is after. Can't imagine we know what it is directly. I mean if we find out Trump lied about knowing about the Stormy contract then it is another on top of a mountain of lies. Hardly something Mueller cares about. Unless Cohen contradicts Trumps version of events a raid is hardly necessary to show Cohen entered his client into a contract without his client's consent so a raid is not needed there either.

Multiple legal teams have ok'd this so I am very curious as to what they have and if they found what they are looking for. We don't seem to have enough information to figure it out as is anyway.

Im curious if its their way into Trumps finances through stuff they know Cohen has done for Trump but need the hard evidence for, that then might potentially depending on what cohen did completely open up trump's business's and other accounts to subpoena's

Christy42

VinLieger wrote: »

Im curious if its their way into Trumps finances through stuff they know Cohen has done for Trump but need the hard evidence for, that then might potentially depending on what cohen did completely open up trump's business's and other accounts to subpoena's

Looking at it again it might be a little less to do with Russia. It seems Mueller found something not directly relevant and passed on the information to the FBI so I guess it is an entirely separate line of enquiry.

If Cohen gets taken out of action where does that leave Donald's legal team. They were struggling for members a few weeks back.

Leroy42

It would appear that Muller came across some evidence in the process of his own investigation (either directly or through interview). He took this evidence to the SDNY DA who decided that it was serious enough to look for a warrant. A judge then agreed to issue the warrant not just for Cohen's offices but his home and another business address.

Mueller already knows that he is dealing with a volatileindividual, and even worse an individual that has the power to fire him at any point. Why would he suddenly break off from his slow, methodical investigation, which to this point has shown no signs of flights of fancy, to go after Cohen outside his remit. There is no evidence in his past behaviour to back up this type of claim.

2nd, the DA the issued the warrant has only recently been installed (I actually think he is only acting as he hasn't been approved yet, though I could be mistaken on that) by Sessions, so a Trump appointee. Why would he then look to destroy his own new job on the basis of nothing more than a witch-hunt. The normal reaction would be to try to avoid doing something like this.

Lastly the Judge. The judge would have to be satisfied that the evidence presented on the back of the warrant was sufficient to grant it. Goin after a lawyer, and thus a potential infringement on the client/lawyer relationship would be taken pretty seriously and you would have to accept that the judge ignored all this simply to score a TV rating hit as he would know that since the warrant was illegal then any evidence obtained would be inaddmissable.

That is quite a long and high level conspiracy.

One last thing, Trump claimed on AF1 last week that Cohen had never discussed the payment with him, and this ties in with Cohen's version and the statements that Cohen lawyer has made. As such, there can be no correspondence between them to be privileged. So why is Trump so clearly out of control over this? Surely he would welcome the fact that the story will be shown to be true when they fail to find anything (as they can't cause it didn't happen)

Peregrinus

Christy42 wrote: »

Looking at it again it might be a little less to do with Russia. It seems Mueller found something not directly relevant and passed on the information to the FBI so I guess it is an entirely separate line of enquiry.

If Cohen gets taken out of action where does that leave Donald's legal team. They were struggling for members a few weeks back.

Cohen is Trump's personal attorney (and has been for many years). He's not part of the team which is advising Trump in relation to the Mueller investigation and (of course) he's not part of the White House Counsel's office.

Cohen hasn't been acting for Trump in relation to the Mueller inquiry, not least because he himself is a subject of the inquiry (and has been for some time) so there would be a conflict of interest in his acting for another subject of the inquiry.

everlast75

Trying to play catch up but i understand that the southern district of new york conducted the raid. A theory is that the reason behind this is so that it can be a "clean raid", ie they can sift through the stuff and if it is not admissible then there can be no allegation of using illegally gotten info to pursue under a different guise.

Secondly, the people leading SDNY are appointees of DJT.

Finally, Cohen is the head of the GOP finance branch, which is historic.

Apparently docs were seized re Manafort too

Oafley Jones

Bank Fraud and campaign violations according to the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/fbi-seizes-records-related-to-stormy-daniels-in-raid-of-trump-attorney-michael-cohens-office/2018/04/09/e3e43cf4-3c30-11e8-974f-aacd97698cef_story.html?utm_term=.5a809f8cfd34

Pepefrogok

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here? Announce an investigation into somthing very serious that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion) then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted, it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses. Look at the real sinister stuff going on, look at the news today that bill Clinton meet with 'LL for a clandestine chat at an airfield but it was just chit chat and his wife who was being investigated at the time was not mentioned? It amazes me you guys have become so twisted, the media really can control thought.

Sonics2k

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here? Announce an investigation into somthing very serious that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion) then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted, it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses. Look at the real sinister stuff going on, look at the news today that bill Clinton meet with 'LL for a clandestine chat at an airfield but it was just chit chat and his wife who was being investigated at the time was not mentioned? It amazes me you guys have become so twisted, the media really can control thought.

Ah yes, that old chestnut.

It can't possibly be that your guy lied to you, misled you and fooled you. Nope, instead it's all a big conspiracy against poor, innocent and totally legitimate Donald Trump.

Nevermind the piles and mounds of evidence against him, even his own words. It's all a plot to take him down.

Leroy42

And notwithstanding all the theories about what is happening, for POTUS to come out and say that a legally undertaken warranty was an "attack on America" is deeply concerning.

For him then to go on with blatant made up lines about Comey, HC, Sessions (he basically admitted, again, that he wanted an AG to protect him rather than the law) is almost unbelievable.

For a senior businessman to be so unable to control himself, and yet again dig the hole even deeper is astonishing.

Captain Obvious

Trumps lawyer has claimed he acted independently of Trump in the Stormy stuff so this has likely damaged any claim he could make for privilege.

Leroy42

Ha ha, the Deep state. Is this the all powerful deep state that failed to stop Trump getting elected in the first place? The Deep state that failed to protect it own darling HC?

Come on, Pepe, you will need to do better than that.

Captain Obvious

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here? Announce an investigation into somthing very serious that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion) then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted, it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses. Look at the real sinister stuff going on, look at the news today that bill Clinton meet with 'LL for a clandestine chat at an airfield but it was just chit chat and his wife who was being investigated at the time was not mentioned? It amazes me you guys have become so twisted, the media really can control thought.

Trump is the deep state. He is the very thing he tells people to be afraid of. He puts unqualified incompetent people in positions simply because he thinks they will be loyal to him. He uses his position to push his private interests and those of his family. He supports and defends abusers and child molesters. I mean, what exactly separates him from the bogeyman that you call the deep state?

Peregrinus

Sonics2k wrote: »

Ah yes, that old chestnut.

It can't possibly be that your guy lied to you, misled you and fooled you. Nope, instead it's all a big conspiracy against poor, innocent and totally legitimate Donald Trump.

Nevermind the piles and mounds of evidence against him, even his own words. It's all a plot to take him down.

A plot in which some of his close advisers and even closer relatives appear to be complicit.

Really Interested

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Trumps lawyer has claimed he acted independently of Trump in the Stormy stuff so this has likely damaged any claim he could make for privilege.

The privilege is not for the Lawyer to invoke it is the clients.

http://www.sgrlaw.com/ttl-articles/916/

“Since the client, and not the attorney, holds the privilege, the client holds the ultimate authority to assert it or waive it.”

Christy42

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Trump is the deep state. He is the very thing he tells people to be afraid of. He puts unqualified incompetent people in positions simply because he thinks they will be loyal to him. He uses his position to push his private interests and those of his family. He supports and defends abusers and child molesters. I mean, what exactly separates him from the bogeyman that you call the deep state?

I believe he means the deep state that Trump appointed given it seems to be Trump appointees giving permission for the raid.

Seriously though it is impressive how much Trump can claim that it is all the fat cats in DC holding him down while his party controls every single area of government. Both the FBI and CIA have had people appointed to them by Trump.
He has had all the power to get his guys in position and still claims to be an outsider. And people believe him.

Water John

One other point, as a correction. My undestanding, is that Mueller took his evidence to Rosenstein, who then sent it, for action to the SDNY DA. He then had to go to a Judge and get the Warrant.
Mueller is many steps out from the action. So DT attributing it to Mueller is totally false. He either knew that, in his rant, or he's totally stupid.
BTW, all those along the line, are Republican.

[Deleted User]

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here?

Deep state, got ya.

Announce an investigation into somthing very serious

With you so far...

that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion)

...And the lies don't take long.

then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted,

There are Republicans and Trump supporters involved. Besides, he has nothing to fear right?

it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses.

Your concern for democracy is touching. Let's make it total votes maybe?

Look at the real sinister stuff going on, look at the news today that bill Clinton meet with 'LL for a clandestine chat at an airfield but it was just chit chat and his wife who was being investigated at the time was not mentioned? It amazes me you guys have become so twisted, the media really can control thought.

That would be a man who hasn't been president for over 17 years yes? Though I don't follow who LL is and is the apostrophe meant to be the start of a quote?

Leroy42

Politico's take on what the raids could mean:

The evidence sought by investigators reportedly relates to bank fraud and campaign finance violations, both of which primarily point to one thing. Cohen apparently used a home equity credit line to borrow the $130,000 he paid Stormy Daniels for her silence just weeks before the 2016 election. If Cohen lied to obtain credit from a federally insured financial institution, that is a felony punishable by up to 30 years’ imprisonment. And because the payment was likely an in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign, it could constitute a willful violation of campaign contribution limits, a separate felony punishable by up to five years’ imprisonment.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/04/09/fbi-raid-michael-cohen-donald-trump-robert-mueller-217841

That is pretty serious for Cohen, if less so for Trump. But Trump will really have to question how loyal Cohen would remain if faced with that sort of justice.
Flynn has already flipped on him, along with a few others.

BabyCheeses

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here? Announce an investigation into somthing very serious that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion) then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted, it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses. Look at the real sinister stuff going on, look at the news today that bill Clinton meet with 'LL for a clandestine chat at an airfield but it was just chit chat and his wife who was being investigated at the time was not mentioned? It amazes me you guys have become so twisted, the media really can control thought.

Simple, don't commit a crime if you don't want to be charged with one.

jooksavage

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here? Announce an investigation into somthing very serious that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion) then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted, it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses.

This is good for democracy. This doesnt happen in Assad's Syria or indeed Putin's Russia. The US, for now at least, is still a country of laws. You're confusing the rule of law with this fantastical "deep state". Thats d.u.m.b.

Mumha

Water John wrote: »

One other point, as a correction. My undestanding, is that Mueller took his evidence to Rosenstein, who then sent it, for action to the SDNY DA. He then had to go to a Judge and get the Warrant.
Mueller is many steps out from the action. So DT attributing it to Mueller is totally false. He either knew that, in his rant, or he's totally stupid.
BTW, all those along the line, are Republican.

Yes and both Rosenstein and Berman are Trump appointees ! Berman even donated to the Trump campaign and is a former law partner of Rudy Guiliani.

Also, to get a warrant is not a straightforward matter, they would have to have shown a high standard of proof that they Cohen wasn't complying, and even more so for a "no knock" warrant.

VinLieger

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I know many hate trump but do yous really not see the deep state at work here? Announce an investigation into somthing very serious that they actually manufactured themselves (Russia collusion) then use that as a proxy to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to find anything they can use to get rid of the man none of them wanted, it's so obvious yet many will still cheer for it as it's their "team" winning even if democracy losses. Look at the real sinister stuff going on, look at the news today that bill Clinton meet with 'LL for a clandestine chat at an airfield but it was just chit chat and his wife who was being investigated at the time was not mentioned? It amazes me you guys have become so twisted, the media really can control thought.

The deep state..... that Trump appointed? Let me guess they were some how brainwashed in a certain pizza establishment to turn on him......