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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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Comments

jimmycrackcorm

jm08 wrote: »

I think people are putting too much emphasis on the language used in the texts as being a problem. The big problem is that we got an eyeful of their total lack of respect for women and for themselves.

Millions of Americans voted for Trump after his cat grabbing remarks. I think people don't really regard such talk as a lack of respect for women, just meaningless macho talk.

RabbleRouser2k

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Off colour joke'???
A racist joke that caused great offence as opposed to some sexist comments that caused great offence.

Everyone here 'accepts the verdict' and as Boatmad says have now moved on to wanting careers to end because of the sexist remarks.

Yep, but he was also dragged through the media at the time. Got a bashing on a lot of political shows too.

He wasn't taoiseach at the time-and if he had made those jokes in front of Obama, that would be the end of his career.

Micheal Martin did an impersonation of the a Chinese accent (painful) and that was equally cringeworthy. He also had to apologise.

There's been many embarassing incidents involving Irish politicians.

Not everyone has accepted the verdict-you only have to look online to see that. Probably will be more protests before the month is out.

FrancieBrady

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yep, but he was also dragged through the media at the time. Got a bashing on a lot of political shows too.

He wasn't taoiseach at the time-and if he had made those jokes in front of Obama, that would be the end of his career.

Micheal Martin did an impersonation of the a Chinese accent (painful) and that was equally cringeworthy. He also had to apologise.

There's been many embarassing incidents involving Irish politicians.

Not everyone has accepted the verdict-you only have to look online to see that. Probably will be more protests before the month is out.

These guys have all been dragged through the 'media' too and got a severe 'bashing'.
But, apparently their careers are on the line too according to the mob.
I didn't see any ads in the papers demanding FG get rid of Kenny.

Drop a bit a sex into the equation and the Irish get as judgmental as the church ever was.

RabbleRouser2k

FrancieBrady wrote: »

These guys have all been dragged through the 'media' too and got a severe 'bashing'.
But, apparently their careers are on the line too according to the mob.
I didn't see any ads in the papers demanding FG get rid of Kenny.

Drop a bit a sex into the equation and the Irish get as judgmental as the church ever was.

Yes-because they were accused of a crime-a very serious one. And from the outsides looking in, there was a lot to not like about the trial. Kenny was lucky, in many senses-Social Media wasn't a thing then. But nor was his joke a crime.
Comparisons between the rape trial and a horrendous joke are two completely different extremes. It's like comparing not wearing your seatbelt in a car, to intentionally running someone over.

Note some of the comments of Jackson's Barrister-how the complainant only took the morning after pill 'to look like a classic victim'-actual words of Brendan Kelly. (and his statement had to be approved by Jackson and co before he made it-which further incensed people).
If you want to look at a politician who made a stupid comment and lost his job-look at the Sinn Fein fella and the 'Kingsmill' video.
Not illegal-but very poor taste. And now he's out of the party.

This case is still being examined-and written about. This article alone will be in the I.T tomorrow morning.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/paddy-jackson-s-apology-may-be-a-case-of-too-little-too-late-1.3453238#.WshSi99ewXY.twitter

tritium

BBDBB wrote: »

I think the reality is somewhere between the two

The balance for sponsors is different to Ulster/IRFU

At the moment Olding & Jackson have become figures of hate and a target for those with a legitimate complaint, thats not good for business to be associated with

However
1) They were found not guilty of all charges (in under 4 hours- very quickly)
2) Their unsavoury texts were a private conversation that would have remained so without the court case
3) They have already served two years (approx) away from their chosen profession and missed out already on potential honours.

Ulster/IRFU have a difficult decision to make,
The reality is that public opinion vacillates and swings, time dampens fervour and public denouncements from official bodies sound great but don't necessarily mean permanent decisions are an absolute finality

My guess is that they'll delay a decision, the season is nearly over, they'll re-evaluate their eligibility and suitability for starting next season and let the international prospects become problematic or a non-issue as and when form and injury dictates

Pretty much spot on. If he finds his previous form only Sexton is ahead of him with Carbery likely to pass him out soon, the other names mentioned aren’t close (I’d hopes for JJ a few years ago but he has never really reached the level he looked capable of). Ulster would likely bring him back after a brief post trial pause, Ireland would be more form driven anyway so the issue won’t arise for a while, which will be very convenient for all side since everyone will be able to say they won.

tritium

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yep, but he was also dragged through the media at the time. Got a bashing on a lot of political shows too.

He wasn't taoiseach at the time-and if he had made those jokes in front of Obama, that would be the end of his career.

Micheal Martin did an impersonation of the a Chinese accent (painful) and that was equally cringeworthy. He also had to apologise.

There's been many embarassing incidents involving Irish politicians.

Not everyone has accepted the verdict-you only have to look online to see that. Probably will be more protests before the month is out.

Oh I’m sure there will be more protests. These things were doubtless in the pipeline long before the verdict, I’m sure the actual outcome came as something of an inconvenience to the core of organizers. Tbh there’s been a very sinister undercurrent to this whereby certain folks used it to get their faces and agendas in the media regardless of the impact on the lives of the five people directly involved

RuMan

Personally given the need for viable starting alternative to sexton would like to see Jacko back for the tour to Australia.

FrancieBrady

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yes-because they were accused of a crime-a very serious one. And from the outsides looking in, there was a lot to not like about the trial. Kenny was lucky, in many senses-Social Media wasn't a thing then. But nor was his joke a crime.
Comparisons between the rape trial and a horrendous joke are two completely different extremes. It's like comparing not wearing your seatbelt in a car, to intentionally running someone over.

Note some of the comments of Jackson's Barrister-how the complainant only took the morning after pill 'to look like a classic victim'-actual words of Brendan Kelly. (and his statement had to be approved by Jackson and co before he made it-which further incensed people).
If you want to look at a politician who made a stupid comment and lost his job-look at the Sinn Fein fella and the 'Kingsmill' video.
Not illegal-but very poor taste. And now he's out of the party.

This case is still being examined-and written about. This article alone will be in the I.T tomorrow morning.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/paddy-jackson-s-apology-may-be-a-case-of-too-little-too-late-1.3453238#.WshSi99ewXY.twitter

Another 'opinion maker' who is still sore that the verdict didn't go the way they had already decided.

Where were all these morally upstanding people when this happens at almost every trial going?
It's cheap bandwagoning and faux outrage to make a buck.

And you still haven't explained away why it is one politician gets away with full on racism and no sympathy is available in the court of public opinion for somebody else.
Like McElduff, Kenny offended and hurt an individual as well as the general public. One's apology was accepted and the other's wasn't.

Do you think the 'great unwashed public' need a hypocrisy check?

tretorn

Mod-[Redacted]- nothing to do with this thread

I think a lot of people have lost confidence in the system of justice after the Belfast case, I know I have. The Police had a sober witness who saw what was going on so any unhappiness the woman had afterwards was after Dara Florence looked in. Jackson and Olding didnt know she was upset, she didnt cry until after she left the house and the crying could have been down to disappointment that Jackson had no interest in her rather than anything else. This means that she may have had unrealistic expectations of Jacksons interest in her, this is probably the situation many young women have after one night stands but if everyone of these cases proceed to court the system will be clogged up with rape claims and genuine rape claims will wait in queue to get to trial. We also dont have enough prison places to put the men if we convict them of selfish sex which is what this situation is.

The linked article in the Irish Times is by Jennifer O Connell, as I said every single piece of journalism is by the feminist brand of reporter, these are the same loopers who attacked George Hook.If young women listened to GH instead of listening to these feminists they might actually learn something. O connells article is an iunbiased piece of crap, Jacksons solicitor was right to mention the police investigation, there were a lot of questions to be answered and there is an enquiry within the CPS as to how the case was brought. The Irish Times had one little article on this and pages and pages of feminist have a go at Jackson. They are determined he willnever play for Ulster again and anytime this looks like moving off the front page they will being it up again.

Jackson and Olding were very foolish to apologise, it just gives ammo to those who wont accept the verdict.

JupiterKid

Alcohol is the main culprit here. So much drink was consumed that particular night that very little of what actually transpired is clear.

But there seems to be an undercurrent in this thread of disbelieving the alleged female "victim". The worship and exaltation of rugby players was also a major factor..Is it really the way to go? I also note the poll breaks down broadly by the sex of most of AH posters.

But there really are no winners here. None at all. As I opined, alcohol was a major culprit.

[Deleted User]

tretorn wrote: »

I think a lot of people have lost confidence in the system of justice after the Belfast case, I know I have. The Police had a sober witness who saw what was going on so any unhappiness the woman had afterwards was after Dara Florence looked in. Jackson and Olding didnt know she was upset, she didnt cry until after she left the house and the crying could have been down to disappointment that Jackson had no interest in her rather than anything else. This means that she may have had unrealistic expectations of Jacksons interest in her, this is probably the situation many young women have after one night stands but if everyone of these cases proceed to court the system will be clogged up with rape claims and genuine rape claims will wait in queue to get to trial. We also dont have enough prison places to put the men if we convict them of selfish sex which is what this situation is.

That is my feeling too. It must have been hard for her to handle that he didn't even know her name.

Appledreams15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

These guys have all been dragged through the 'media' too and got a severe 'bashing'.
But, apparently their careers are on the line too according to the mob.
I didn't see any ads in the papers demanding FG get rid of Kenny.

Drop a bit a sex into the equation and the Irish get as judgmental as the church ever was.

Normal sex =great!
Sex where the girl is crying and bleeding from an injury. Not so great.
Even the lads have apologised for her being so distressed

FrancieBrady

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Normal sex =great!
Sex where the girl is crying and bleeding from an injury. Not so great.
Even the lads have apologised for her being so distressed

You are going to persist in finding something was relevant that the jury didn't.

Carry on.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

These guys have all been dragged through the 'media' too and got a severe 'bashing'.
But, apparently their careers are on the line too according to the mob.
I didn't see any ads in the papers demanding FG get rid of Kenny.

Drop a bit a sex into the equation and the Irish get as judgmental as the church ever was.

I don't recall Enda being accused of rape? Nor of him having to apologise to his family for his behaviour on the night of the activities in question.

They should have considered their futures before engaging in and bragging about such sordid acts.

JupiterKid

This thread shows that we are heading into an outright war between the sexes which Is deeply sad. This will only get much worse.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't recall Enda being accused of rape? Nor of him having to apologise to his family for his behaviour on the night of the activities in question.

They should have considered their futures before engaging in and bragging about such sordid acts.

It may have escaped your attention but they are not guilty of rape.
The core push now is that the IRFU should penalise them (by effectively ending their Irish careers) for their activity on WhatsApp. That was the conversation that led to comparing Enda's crime, that he fully admitted to, said was wrong and that he had let his standards and family down, blah blah.

Sexism/Racism.

The hypocritical Irish court of public opinion, forgave one but want a price paid for the other.

Notorious

tretorn wrote: »

An Irish woman has accused six Algerian men or raping her in Prague, she agreed to go back with one man and she says six men took it inturns raping her.

Armed police surrounded the hostel the men were and broke down the door, they tied the men up and dragged them away, there is a video clip of it going around.

I really hope those men have someone to defend them and they get a fair trial. If they have are convicted of rape then yes of course send them to jail but treating them in this fashion before they have even been charged with anything is wrong.

The lack of compassion you show is alarming. I doubt you’d be so cold if your daughter was the victim. No smoke without fire.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It may have escaped your attention but they are not guilty of rape.
The core push now is that the IRFU should penalise them (by effectively ending their Irish careers) for their activity on WhatsApp. That was the conversation that led to comparing Enda's crime, that he fully admitted to, said was wrong and that he had let his standards and family down, blah blah.

Sexism/Racism.

The hypocritical Irish court of public opinion, forgave one but want a price paid for the other.

You seem to have a bit of a hard-on for the Enda thing Francie - don't see what it has to do with the case under discussion in this thread myself - smells like deflection and whataboutery.

I think it was about 16 or 17 years ago, so maybe find something a bit more relevant or recent to compare, or start a separate thread and see who's interested in discussing it.

Roger Hassenforder

For me the worring thing coming out if this is the very marked inability of people to think for themselves, due to groupthink in an echochamber resonating to the voices of some very disturbed people.

George Hook was hounded out of his job for expressing an opinion. Myers for something similar. The subsequent outrage was worring enough, but looks to have been the tip of the iceberg. But these lads (who in another jurisdiction) were found not guilty. A result the twitterati mob refused to accept, decided to cast doubt on it, and now want their careers destroyed over private immature whatsapp bravado. Fcuking protest marches? In a different country with a different legal system....

I hope Aodhan ORiordan gets the sh1t3 sued out of him. People should learn in their rush to virtue signal to the mob, that their actions can have consequences.

Appledreams15

[QUOTE=tretorn;106653501 ]Mod-[redacted]

I think a lot of people have lost confidence in the system of justice after the Belfast case, I know I have. The Police had a sober witness who saw what was going on so any unhappiness the woman had afterwards was after Dara Florence looked in. Jackson and Olding didnt know she was upset, she didnt cry until after she left the house and the crying could have been down to disappointment that Jackson had no interest in her rather than anything else. This means that she may have had unrealistic expectations of Jacksons interest in her, this is probably the situation many young women have after one night stands but if everyone of these cases proceed to court the system will be clogged up with rape claims and genuine rape claims will wait in queue to get to trial. We also dont have enough prison places to put the men if we convict them of selfish sex which is what this situation is.

The linked article in the Irish Times is by Jennifer O Connell, as I said every single piece of journalism is by the feminist brand of reporter, these are the same loopers who attacked George Hook.If young women listened to GH instead of listening to these feminists they might actually learn something. O connells article is an iunbiased piece of crap, Jacksons solicitor was right to mention the police investigation, there were a lot of questions to be answered and there is an enquiry within the CPS as to how the case was brought. The Irish Times had one little article on this and pages and pages of feminist have a go at Jackson. They are determined he willnever play for Ulster again and anytime this looks like moving off the front page they will being it up again.

Jackson and Olding were very foolish to apologise, it just gives ammo to those who wont accept the verdict.[/QUOTE]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are going to persist in finding something was relevant that the jury didn't.

Carry on.

Francie you're behind.
It is not about the verdict. It is about the behaviour of the players. Paddy Jackson apologised for his behaviour this week in a lengthy statement.

Appledreams15

JupiterKid wrote: »

This thread shows that we are heading into an outright war between the sexes which Is deeply sad. This will only get much worse.

I left Ireland this week, I work remotely, and I actually felt incredible relief, and freedom.

Other countries have there own problems.

But there is a very particular kind of hatred towards women, combined with alcoholism in Ireland.

It is going to take generations to solve

optogirl

Deleted User wrote: »

That is my feeling too. It must have been hard for her to handle that he didn't even know her name.

and what makes people think that a person's reaction to this feeling would be to go to the police?? It is not a rational response to regret or disappointment.

sydthebeat

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Francie you're behind.
It is not about the verdict. It is about the behaviour of the players. Paddy Jackson apologised for his behaviour this week in a lengthy statement.

Do you agree that should be the end of it, or should they have their contacts ended?

RuMan

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Francie you're behind.
It is not about the verdict. It is about the behaviour of the players. Paddy Jackson apologised for his behaviour this week in a lengthy statement.

After Jackos magnanimous apology its now about getting him back to rugby football ASAP.
Expect the IRFU will re instate him after the hoopla has died down. U might have the likes of Ruth Coppinger protesting but normal people have largely moved on now.

Would you bring him back for the summer tour or the autumn internationals ?

surrender monkey

Notorious wrote: »

The lack of compassion you show is alarming. I doubt you’d be so cold if your daughter was the victim. No smoke without fire.

Yeah the first part of that post was vile. How many women actively choose to engage in sex with six men? I would say next to none. If that happened me I recon I'd top myself.poster is obviously a woman hater, hopefully he never has daughters.

Roger Hassenforder

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I left Ireland this week, I work remotely, and I actually felt incredible relief, and freedom.

Other countries have there own problems.

But there is a very particular kind of hatred towards women, combined with alcoholism in Ireland.

It is going to take generations to solve

What a load of absolute b0110x

facehugger99

sydthebeat wrote: »

Do you agree that should be the end of it, or should they have their contacts ended?

Their contracts won't be renewed. No need to risk an employment law case. They'll be paid up to the end of their current term and that will be the end of it.
They won't play again for Ireland.

I'm happy with that arrangement.

Roger Hassenforder

facehugger99 wrote: »

Their contracts won't be renewed. No need to risk an employment law case. They'll be paid up to the end of their current term and that will be the end of it.
They won't play again for Ireland.

I'm happy with that arrangement.

Why are you happy with that though?

You either accept theyre not guilty or you dont.

Is it their behaviour (threesomes etc) or their language you find distasteful? Or their approach to casual sex?

facehugger99

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Why are you happy with that though?

You either accept theyre not guilty or you dont.

Is it their behaviour (threesomes etc) or their language you find distasteful? Or their approach to casual sex?

I've made my views known on the thread quite comprehensively - I'm sure if you search my posts you'll find the detailed reasons for my views without me having to rehash everything.

Fann Linn

facehugger99 wrote: »

Their contracts won't be renewed. No need to risk an employment law case. They'll be paid up to the end of their current term and that will be the end of it.
They won't play again for Ireland.

I'm happy with that arrangement.

And what if their contracts were renewed? Would it upset you?