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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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Silentcorner

freshpopcorn wrote: »

No but if they did they'd have being found not guilty because they did nothing wrong if an allegation was made!

Well then, we are not dealing with the same type of incident then, this is about a case that made it all the way to the jury, and has damaged 5 young lives, this wasn't about a girl who got upset over some unknown and unexplained reason!

facehugger99

holyhead wrote: »

In terms of Jackson's apology the sincerity of it will be proven by his subsequent behaviour towards women. Any man who has pride in himself would be mortified to have such juvenile/disrespectful text messages shown to the world.

Indeed.

If this sorry case has any positives, it might be to shine a light on the boorish, jock culture that exists in some small pockets of society and maybe make some people reevaluate how they talk about and treat people.

Paddy Jackson had a lot to lose and he will pay a heavy price with the loss of his career and earnings, but if he wants somebody to blame, he can have a long look in the mirror.

Silentcorner

erica74 wrote: »

To be fair the thread has turned to a more general discussion about the aspects of society that this case has highlighted so I think it's reasonable enough that everyone is contributing their experience and views.

Well, ok, women get upset at parties after sex more often that some of us would have thought! Which doesn't make it rape...am I on the right track?

Mrsmum

AllForIt wrote: »

Disappointed to see Jackson making a public apology for the text messages which you know technically are supposed to be private - it's not like he posted them on twitter. Obviously just like when anyone in the public eye is shown to have done something that does not meet the standard of the morally superior public which doesn't even exist, it is the done thing that if they want to keep working in their profession they must issue an emphatic unreserved apology - and that is of course the only reason he issued this apology today.

Ok so I can either believe Paddy has had or been forced to have a good look at himself and where his behaviour fitted in with his upbringing and family values and genuinely saw his shortcomings to put it mildly. In which case I can extend goodwill towards him.
Or
I can believe he is just as bad as he ever was, in which case I can really enjoy seeing him having to prostrate himself in what must, in that case. be to him a most humiliating way.
My choices are good either way.

tretorn

But if the boorish jock culture is part of rugby then dont go to VIP nightclubs in the hope that your idol will give you a quick shag.

Let the rugby people behave the way they like, if they want threesomes in the bed and women are happy to be the spit in the roast then you mind your own business. Lots of people here claimed to know what a spit roast was, ie two men and a woman, they know what it is even while they say they recoil clutching their holy beads and bottles of holy water to their chests. For people who claim to be horrified and shockified by lads texts they have no problem repeating the contents of texts ad nauseum. If you werent shocked and most people arent by the texts then hearing them repeating continously isnt going to change that.

Paddy knows exactly who has been in various beds doing what and the IRFU know this. He probably has all sorts of whatsapp messages on his phone that would make the chat he was involved in look like a nuns whatsapp group.

He will have to be handled with kidgloves.

Appledreams15

freshpopcorn wrote: »

cloudatlas wrote: »

The height of whataboutery, subtext matters so much that you can't derive meaning from projected conversations and examples. We have an actual example we know the context of it and we react accordingly but then the AH whataboutery patrol arrives with what if and a whole load of nonsense that we have no context for at all- how the hell is the poster supposed to respond to the little information and the imagined scenarios you have concocted.

Well I know if I was in a relationship with somebody for a good while and if I found out they did somebody when they were younger and stupid and they weren't like that now or it was just a one off. I believe I'd continue the relationship with them.
I basically asked could she stay in a relationship with somebody that did something stupid when they were younger even tough it was something she despised.

Please everyone else think what you like of SO.
He has been found innocent.

In my experience, I have been raped.

I feel that I can feel a similiar energy in other 'rapist' men. I sense it off him. It is a particular kind of cruelty. In that sense I would run a mile.

Again this is my personal account, not speaking for all people etc!

foxyladyxx

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Please everyone else think what you like of SO.
He has been found innocent.

In my experience, I have been raped.

I feel that I can feel a similiar energy in other 'rapist' men. I sense it off him. It is a particular kind of cruelty. In that sense I would run a mile.

Again this is my personal account, not speaking for all people etc!

tretorn

Oh stop with the metoo stuff appledream, I knew we would have a lot of this, all these metoo claims, , did you report it to the Gardai, if the answer is no, then report it today.

How can you get a sense of anyone by reading about them on twitter, you sound deranged.

I knew those women marching had a screw loose, its quite obvious, I get a sense of that looking at their unwashed hair.

FrancieBrady

tretorn wrote: »

Oh stop with the metoo stuff appledream, I knew we would have a lot of this, all these metoo claims, , did you report it to the Gardai, if the answer is no, then report it today.

How can you get a sense of anyone by reading about them on twitter, you sound deranged.

I knew those women marching had a screw loose, its quite obvious, I get a sense of that looking at their unwashed hair.

'Energy' apparently.

Silentcorner

tretorn wrote: »

Oh stop with the metoo stuff appledream, I knew we would have a lot of this, all these metoo claims, , did you report it to the Gardai, if the answer is no, then report it today.

How can you get a sense of anyone by reading about them on twitter, you sound deranged.

I knew those women marching had a screw loose, its quite obvious, I get a sense of that looking at their unwashed hair.

Jesus you really were taking a good look!!

Muahahaha

RuMan wrote: »

Extrordinarily magnanimous gesture by Jacko considering what he has been subjected to.
Lets now try and get him back for a few Ulster games before the season end.
Given the media circus his Irish return would involve it will make better sense to bring him back for our national team in the summer tour to Australia.
Delighted to see this sorry episode put behind us as the entire country gets behind Jacko and the boys for the 2019 rugby football world cup.

I got a great laugh out of this RuMan

SterlingArcher

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Please everyone else think what you like of SO.
He has been found innocent.

In my experience, I have been raped.

I feel that I can feel a similiar energy in other 'rapist' men. I sense it off him. It is a particular kind of cruelty. In that sense I would run a mile.

Again this is my personal account, not speaking for all people etc!

Fml.

You can feel mens rapist's energy. Wow. Well there are crimes going on across the country and you are here wasting your powers on boards forums.

The currency of your opinion has just crashed.

RabbleRouser2k

holyhead wrote: »

In terms of Jackson's apology the sincerity of it will be proven by his subsequent behaviour towards women. Any man who has pride in himself would be mortified to have such juvenile/disrespectful text messages shown to the world. It was a well worded apology.

Damage control, possibly. But he probably had to say something-damned if he did, damned if he didn't.
All that jazz. Won't appease either crowd-some will say 'no apology required' others will say not far enough.

Some are pointing out how his 'threatening to sue' shows another aspect to him. And then there is this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ad-calls-for-jackson-olding-not-to-play-for-ulster-or-ireland-again-1.3452780

If you look at another sportsperson's recentish behaviour, Dublin Footballer Diarmuid Connolly, you see some terrible behaviour on his part-which did lead to a court case, and he's currently being sued because of it. He's even had repeated incidents on the pitch. Yet after a while, no matter how good he played, it wasn't worth the risk. He could leave a team a man down.
And that was only county. His career is still in doubt too.

Jackson's international. More eyes are on him and the team. He's got two strikes (three if you count the whatsapp messages) and Rugby is on the rise in popularity in Ireland. MAny people are vying for Sexton's place on the pitch (which Jackson was also vying for)-he'll be hard pressed to get a place on the team.

Kidchameleon

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I feel that I can feel a similiar energy in other 'rapist' men.

Your a Betazoid

Infini

I'll just be honest, the one thing disgusting me at this stage is how some don't care that he's found innocent by a COURT OF LAW, he guilty no matter what and that's what I don't like. Sure he's far from being an angel for crying out loud but the serious problem I find is that there's a toxic cohort on the likes of cancer media that have decided hes guilty and they'll destroy him for it no matter what.

These kinds of people NEED to lay off, they can have a legitimate case about how convictions on rape are too low and that there needs to be change and I would agree to that extent but crucifying him like some witch hunt only DAMAGES them. He was found innocent in a court of law, not cancer media's kangaroo court, make change through positive campaigning don't try to force it otherwise all they'll cause in the long run is a pushback against their agenda because some people wont put up with BS grade carryon.

RuMan

So 1st test of the summer tour is June 9th. Would people favour giving Sexton a rest and starting Jacko or starting Sexton and easing Jacko in off the bench?
Exciting times for Irish rugby football going forward we can all agree.

[Deleted User]

Normally I don't like the Daily Mail but they have this comment section that allows you to upvote/downvote as you see fit- it's quite cathartic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5585961/It-degrading-offensive-Ulster-rugby-star-cleared-rape-apologises-WhatsApp-chats.html

RuMan

Do you not think there could be argument for starting Jacko with Carbery on the bench and giving Sexton a rest?

Throw him in at deep end and try and get him involved in a bit of action straight away.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Normally I don't like the Daily Mail but they have this comment section that allows you to upvote/downvote as you see fit- it's quite cathartic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5585961/It-degrading-offensive-Ulster-rugby-star-cleared-rape-apologises-WhatsApp-chats.html

The mob's mind is made up

Jackson's apology has been carefully scripted, I sense the IRFU are going to face the rabble down.
I see Ulster rugby have massively lifted their game tonight. Maybe, support for the boys will be the catalyst for them now.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The mob's mind is made up

Jackson's apology has been carefully scripted, I sense the IRFU are going to face the rabble down.
I see Ulster rugby have massively lifted their game tonight. Maybe, support for the boys will be the catalyst for them now.

Jackson has moved from "I'll sue you're fcking ass" to "I'm so, so, so sorry"

(insert picture of Father Jack here from the relevant episode)

As the judge said at the trail, there's no place in this court for emotion.

Well Paddy, now's the time for emotion- so don't insult our intelligence with your pseudo grovelling scripted by your goons- we're not falling for it.

Mrsmum

Infini wrote: »

I'll just be honest, the one thing disgusting me at this stage is how some don't care that he's found innocent by a COURT OF LAW, he guilty no matter what and that's what I don't like. Sure he's far from being an angel for crying out loud but the serious problem I find is that there's a toxic cohort on the likes of cancer media that have decided hes guilty and they'll destroy him for it no matter what.

These kinds of people NEED to lay off, they can have a legitimate case about how convictions on rape are too low and that there needs to be change and I would agree to that extent but crucifying him like some witch hunt only DAMAGES them. He was found innocent in a court of law, not cancer media's kangaroo court, make change through positive campaigning don't try to force it otherwise all they'll cause in the long run is a pushback against their agenda because some people wont put up with BS grade carryon.

People might be surprised to see that I agree with a lot of what you say. For me there were two issues. The first one was the rape case and that has been decided so we can move on from that. The second is what we might call conduct unbecoming as a general term. Now imo he has given a full and thorough apology for that also so we should be able to accept it and move on and leave the rest between himself and his employers.
We should be able to move on but here is where I think PJ's so called supporters are actually his worst nightmare. Because they are still saying he did nothing wrong or that there is nothing wrong with such behaviour or both and what they don't understand is that that is just not acceptable and by saying it is they are keeping him front and centre as the posterboy for bad behaviour. Behaviour he himself is at pains to say he is leaving behind him.
And that's the current problem.

joe40

erica74 wrote: »

Can I just ask the posters defending the group chat and texts as essentially a once off or a snapshot or whatever, do you honestly think that that one night and the following morning (or whatever time period the released messages span) are the only times these guys use that kind of language?

They talk about this sort of stuff like it's a regular occurrence, and while that's fine if all involved are willing participants, the claims that there's only a few texts and these texts are an anomaly is a bit naive.
Maybe all involved will use this as an opportunity to examine how they view women. I'm not talking about the group sex and all that fun stuff, that's grand if everyone is a willing participant, I'm talking about the way they speak. They themselves acknowledge their choice of language is bad.

Just catching up on posts and agree fully with this. When you read the texts combined with the guys leaving a woman distressed in their house (that is not in doubt) it paints a picture of very arrogant young men
I'm going to be accused of moralising about people's sex lives. Nothing could be further trom the truth, I couldn't care less what people get up to when all are fully in consent.

People are going to say the texts were private none of our concern. These players had a responsibility to their employers and sponsors to maintain behaviour or at least not get caught, well they got caught so privacy is no defence. Italian players were reprimanded for poor behaviour.

People are going to say nearly all young men go on like that. I have enough life experience to know that is simply not true. I have taught for over 20 years in a sec school and worked with 100 of young adults. Sure there are horrible Individuals both male and female, that degrade, bully, take advantage of others, but they are not TYPICAL. Thats the thing this attitude and behaviour may be out and prevalent but it is not typical and not normal.
Anyone who accepts it as such are doing themselves and their children both boys and girls a major disservice.

RuMan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The mob's mind is made up

Jackson's apology has been carefully scripted, I sense the IRFU are going to face the rabble down.
I see Ulster rugby have massively lifted their game tonight. Maybe, support for the boys will be the catalyst for them now.

Its been a fantastic day for Irish rugby football.

Would be a great gesture for Jacko to consider giving match day tickets to Ruth Coppinger and Aodhan O'Riordan to witness his home international return in the Autumn internationals.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Jackson has moved from "I'll sue you're fcking ass" to "I'm so, so, so sorry"

(insert picture of Father Jack here from the relevant episode)

As the judge said at the trail, there's no place in this court for emotion.

Well Paddy, now's the time for emotion- so don't insult our intelligence with your pseudo grovelling scripted by your goons- we're not falling for it.

He didn't give people carte blanche to accuse him of rape. Of course he is going to sue anyone who infers that. So would I.

Mountainsandh

tretorn wrote: »

Let the rugby people behave the way they like, if they want threesomes in the bed and women are happy to be the spit in the roast then you mind your own business.

This.
I haven't followed every detail of the trial like others here, but considering the verdict, it seems to me that the young lady's upset was more a mix of mortification/embarrassment and regret than anything else.

What I find deeply ironic in this present situation is that the #ibelieveher feminists movement seems, like Freshpopcorn mentioned earlier, more prude than supportive of women enjoying the liberated sexual life they wish.

I'm a child of the 70s, and my perception has always been that feminism let women work, play, live as they wished, with none of the puritan shackles that previous decades and centuries had them in.

A young lady engaging in a consensual threesome really should not be a big deal.

The current "sisterhood" is creating a climate of tension, where people may only tag along or self-censor, and where victim-hood is the point of reference, rather than empowered self-assurance.

I was actually reading a little bit lately about a French man called Alexis de Tocqueville who looked at America in the nineteenth century. He looks at social and political movements. He mentions "soft despotism", and although of course it is not the exact same situations we are dealing with (he looks at politics specifically), there are a lot of interesting points to take in his observations. Soft despotism is a process whereby people self-impose so many rules and regulations that in the end, they are not really free, although still living in a pretend democracy. I think the current form of feminism is a nice cocoon a lot of young people would like to belong to, and for that reason they might feel they need to conform to a certain persona.

Had this young lady felt ok with living the sexuality she fancied that night with the bit of drink in her, this whole trial may never have happened, again, purely my opinion.

I'm female, and I just can't identify with a form of feminism that will condemn something so innocuous as a threesome , and "sisters" that may gasp and then victimize a woman who might not mind the ol' bit of spit roasting, or even who doesn't mind being objectified for a sensual session.

And it seems to me to be exactly what is happening.

(gentlemen don't get all excited, I sound much kinkier than I am irl :pac: but hey, my point is, each to their own, women included).

Muahahaha

RuMan wrote: »

Do you not think there could be argument for starting Jacko with Carbery on the bench and giving Sexton a rest?

Throw him in at deep end and try and get him involved in a bit of action straight away.

Yeah we have had enough Sexton in Irish rugby over the last while. It certainly is time to give him a rest, he is not as hard now as he used to be.

I would start Jackson over Carbery any day, Jackson has much softer hands and is frightening when he is on the attack.

freshpopcorn

joe40 wrote: »

People are going to say nearly all young men go on like that. I have enough life experience to know that is simply not true. I have taught for over 20 years in a sec school and worked with 100 of young adults. Sure there are horrible Individuals both male and female, that degrade, bully, take advantage of others, but they are not TYPICAL. Thats the thing this attitude and behaviour may be out and prevalent but it is not typical and not normal.
Anyone who accepts it as such are doing themselves and their children both boys and girls a major disservice.

I don't think it's happens a lot but ot's more commom than some mammies and daddies realies. I've seen the quiest people get up to this type off stuff. It's not excatly how you act around a teacher.

C__MC

For me I don’t think Jackson’s apology is to late. As I have said before from his perspective what happened that night was consensual. I can imagine after being acquited, he must have been raging and emotions would be running high. He knew full well during the trial, he was getting slated left, right and center. I’m sure when he was cleared, he was pretty upset at the person who accused him. He has now apologized to her as has olding. The 4 lads and herself should now be allowed to get their lives back on track.

Infini

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The mob's mind is made up

Jackson's apology has been carefully scripted, I sense the IRFU are going to face the rabble down.
I see Ulster rugby have massively lifted their game tonight. Maybe, support for the boys will be the catalyst for them now.

Hopefully they do. I'm all for legitimate and reasonable debate on issues but these days these #insertwhateverhere BS are usually modern day witch hunting mobs with the same level of ignorant BS that you'd find in the crazy east. Honestly wish some people would cop on and realise they're doing more damage than help by acting this way.

FrancieBrady

Infini wrote: »

Hopefully they do. I'm all for legitimate and reasonable debate on issues but these days these #insertwhateverhere BS are usually modern day witch hunting mobs with the same level of ignorant BS that you'd find in the crazy east. Honestly wish some people would cop on and realise they're doing more damage than help by acting this way.

Agree, there has been some decent debate around some of the issues raised here. Mainly, ironically, those addressing the comfort of the complainant in rape cases.
But it has been drowned out by the ridiculous moralising and faux outraged rants.