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The fall of the British Empire

Atoms for Peace

It looks like it's the end for Britain. Brexit, social disintegration, political instability, a failing health and welfare system all seem to be combining in a grotesque death spiral.
Can we learn from anything from their example or are we to doomed to failure?

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Odhinn

Pepefrogok wrote: »

But is it kicking as hard as the old Irish republican victim mentality?

.....your problem with irish republicanism is.....?

Zebra3

Pepefrogok wrote: »

But is it kicking as hard as the old Irish republican victim mentality?

Ask the people of Iraq.

[Deleted User]

Pepefrogok wrote: »

But is it kicking as hard as the old Irish republican victim mentality?

Oh, the British English rightwing have long surpassed the Irish, old chap. Have a drop over to the BBC website and choose any random Brexit-related news, click on the 'Comments' section and victimhood is a veritable psychosis. Nothing less. The whole place has lost all perspective - and the BBC even censors the more extreme posts.

Like the Unionists, if the Brits aren't ruling the world or the EU they feel like 'victims'. It took the Irish to be put on top of gallows, put in coffin ships, dispossessed in huge numbers and have their entire country occupied for centuries to feel like 'victims'. That you cannot see a difference between Britannia not ruling the waves anymore and genuine victimhood really says it all. And the disturbing thing is this faux victimhood is the norm among the plebs-on-a-string in Britain England in 2018, yet another myth that's going to become more and more incorporated into the English nationalist narrative as the effects of Brexit become more clear and you try to scapegoat the EU and everybody else. Only. Yourselves. To. Blame. Nobody. Else.

MPs urge free trade area after Brexit - but committee is split (2130 comments)

ReReginald Perrin

Deleted User wrote: »

It took the Irish to be put on top of gallows, put in coffin ships, dispossessed in huge numbers and have their entire country occupied for centuries to feel like 'victims'. That you cannot see a difference between Britannia not ruling the waves anymore and genuine victimhood really says it all. And the disturbing thing is this faux victimhood is the norm among the plebs-on-a-string in Britain England in 2018, yet another myth that's going to become more and more incorporated into the English nationalist narrative as the effects of Brexit become more clear and you try to scapegoat the EU and everybody else. Only. Yourselves. To. Blame. Nobody. Else.

Why do people still bang on about this stuff? Irish victimhood. We have a good relationship with the UK now. That's all that matters.

Does anyone really think if Ireland was the bigger, more populated and advanced nation, next to a smaller country called the UK, that we would have just left it alone? No, we'd have raided and plundered and conquered the place. That's what humans do.

Europe is at peace for now, the past is the past.

Odhinn

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

Why do people still bang on about this stuff? Irish victimhood. We have a good relationship with the UK now. That's all that matters.

.

Never have we been so high in their minds as when they went for Brexit. You can feel the warmth in the air itself.

Zebra3

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

Why do people still bang on about this stuff? Irish victimhood. We have a good relationship with the UK now. That's all that matters.

Does anyone really think if Ireland was the bigger, more populated and advanced nation, next to a smaller country called the UK, that we would have just left it alone? No, we'd have raided and plundered and conquered the place. That's what humans do.

Europe is at peace for now, the past is the past.

Maybe when the Brits stop banging on about WWI, WWII, Waterloo and all the rest while acknowledging their own crimes, then people can move on.

ReReginald Perrin

Zebra3 wrote: »

Maybe when the Brits stop banging on about WWI, WWII, Waterloo and all the rest while acknowledging their own crimes, then people can move on.

Well weren't the Irish guilty of settling in the US, and Australia, and Canada, and God knows where else, and running the aboriginal people their out of their own territories?

Zebra3

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

Well weren't the Irish guilty of settling in the US, and Australia, and Canada, and God knows where else, and running the aboriginal people their out of their own territories?

Some Irish, yes. Some Irish of course were shipped to Australia by the occupying British.

But it was the British state that was responsible for starting the ethnic cleansing in those lands.

Not that you’ll ever hear them admit it. Too busy banging on about Hitler and his ethnic cleansing as if they live on some sort of moral high ground.

[Deleted User]

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

Europe is at peace for now, the past is the past.

Perhaps you should stay on planet earth for the months of October and November each year, and you might see that "the past" is very much alive and of great use to the servants of the Land of Hope and Glory in creating and consolidating their innumerable national myths of 'courage' and 'self-sacrifice' in 2018?

It's of so much use that a single Remembrance Day has turned into two months of very useful recruitment by the British Armed Forces and flag-wrapping rightwing politicians. A cynic might say that the more Britain declines, the more they accentuate their supposed "victorious" age.

And by far the most disturbing aspect of it all is that there's still not a scintilla of honesty about the reality of that "victorious" age for its countless victims across this planet. Only the perpetrators are glorified in modern British society. A complete populist, crass mess of a society high on pleasing myths that are now juxtaposed against Britain's current position with, of course, the dastardly foreigners in the form of the EU blamed for the contrast between what is celebrated in October and November and what is the reality today.

So, no, the past is definitely not the past in modern England. It's a remarkably, nay a uniquely, useful weapon in 2018.

ReReginald Perrin

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps you should stay on planet earth for the months of October and November each year, and you might see that "the past" is very much alive and of great use to the servants of the Land of Hope and Glory in creating and consolidating their innumerable national myths of 'courage' and 'self-sacrifice' in 2018?

We do the same sh*te for those that were holed up in the GPO, every Easter. Being part of the allies who defeated Hitler in WW2 is something to celebrate. How many 100s of 1000s of Irish fought for Britain too over the centuries?

[Deleted User]

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

We do the same sh*te for a those that were holed up in the GPO, every Easter. Being part of the allies who defeated Hitler in WW2 is something to celebrate. How many 100s of 1000s of Irish fought for Britain too over the centuries?

Er, no we don't. Again, this is just delusion if you think Ireland has a two-month glorification of 1916 each year, never mind forcing everybody on Irish tv to wear the Easter Lily, and excluding them if they refuse.

Oh, and comparing a commemoration of people who fought for Irish freedom from occupation by the British Empire with a commemoration of people who fought for that British Empire/subjugation of peoples across the planet is just, well, yet more of the same blinkered refusal to face up to the reality of the British Empire.

ReReginald Perrin

Deleted User wrote: »

Er, no we don't. Again, this is just delusion if you think Ireland has a two-month glorification of 1916 each year, never mind forcing everybody on Irish tv to wear the Easter Lily, and excluding them if they refuse.

Oh, and comparing a commemoration of people who fought for Irish freedom from occupation by the British Empire with a commemoration of people who fought for that British Empire/subjugation of peoples across the planet is just, well, yet more of the same blinkered refusal to face up to the reality of the British Empire.

Ok, well I for one couldn't care less if we were ruled directly from London or Brussels or anywhere, as long as citizens are treated fairly. Nationality means nothing to me.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps you should stay on planet earth for the months of October and November each year, and you might see that "the past" is very much alive and of great use to the servants of the Land of Hope and Glory in creating and consolidating their innumerable national myths of 'courage' and 'self-sacrifice' in 2018?

It's of so much use that a single Remembrance Day has turned into two months of very useful recruitment by the British Armed Forces and flag-wrapping rightwing politicians. A cynic might say that the more Britain declines, the more they accentuate their supposed "victorious" age.

And by far the most disturbing aspect of it all is that there's still not a scintilla of honesty about the reality of that "victorious" age for its countless victims across this planet. Only the perpetrators are glorified in modern British society. A complete populist, crass mess of a society high on pleasing myths that are now juxtaposed against Britain's current position with, of course, the dastardly foreigners in the form of the EU blamed for the contrast between what is celebrated in October and November and what is the reality today.

So, no, the past is definitely not the past in modern England. It's a remarkably, nay a uniquely, useful weapon in 2018.

heaven forbid a country should mark the centenary of an event that cost over 800,000 lives on their side alone :rolleyes:

topper75

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU saved Britain, which had been in unmistakable decline since at least 1921, in the 1970s, and leaving the EU will end that saving.

Ask one of your relatives whose smartness was finally rightfully recognised by the EU what the term 'net contributor' means.

Red_Wake

topper75 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU saved Britain, which had been in unmistakable decline since at least 1921, in the 1970s, and leaving the EU will end that saving.

Ask one of your relatives whose smartness was finally rightfully recognised by the EU what the term 'net contributor' means.

Just because they were a net contributor to the EU budget doesn't mean the EU was a drain on the country. The intangible benefits of the EU[via free trade, access to labour markets] would more than pay for any difference.

It's no coincidence that London, the city which bankrolls the rest of the UK, had a high Remain vote - those investment bankers and economics know how the bread gets buttered. The decline of London's financial sector, primarily through Brexit, will have massive effects on the UK as a whole.

Pepefrogok

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

Ok, well I for one couldn't care less if we were ruled directly from London or Brussels or anywhere, as long as citizens are treated fairly. Nationality means nothing to me.

Really? To be honest I'd have more respect for the raging republicans in here! Nothing wrong with being proud of your country and kin or indeed fighting for it and your rights, it's just the constant Brit bashing gets boring! I mean in context it's good to talk about it or reference it but shoehorning "800 years" into every bloody thread gets irksome. The British are not inherently evil due to their success in building an empire, every country tried to do it! If anything I am proud of British history, our mouldy damp islands have shaped the world, if Ireland had more succes when raiding Welsh villages back in the day and got a foothold in southern England we could have had the Irish empire! It's no shame on Ireland that it couldn't manage it but it also dosent make Ireland a more morally righteous collection of people for their failure.

On the whole I believe the British having the roll of "world police" for their few short years of history was not all that bad for the planet, plenty of good was done like the abolition of slavery and magna Carta! Even things like the rule of law and rights even if influenced heavily from the Roman empire, I'll tell you now if other countries, cultures and races had took the helm their priorities could have been very different!

As to poppy day and the remembrance of the war dead I believe WW1 was a cluster feck "ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die" being apt, the working class sent to fight for the honour of their "betters", I'll still remember them though! And you may not like this but WW2 seen the U.K. go to the defence of Europe at great cost, easier to do a deal with Hitler and stay out many would say but I am proud that my great grandfather and his fellow countrymen along with the brave volunteers from our Irish neighbours went and destroyed the Nazis along with the allies, I have no shame in remembering all of them also.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

topper75

Red_Wake wrote: »

Just because they were a net contributor to the EU budget doesn't mean the EU was a drain on the country. The intangible benefits of the EU[via free trade, access to labour markets] would more than pay for any difference.

It's no coincidence that London, the city which bankrolls the rest of the UK, had a high Remain vote - those investment bankers and economics know how the bread gets buttered. The decline of London's financial sector, primarily through Brexit, will have massive effects on the UK as a whole.

Perhaps here you are conflating leaving the EU with no longer doing business with countries who remain?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Well said Pepe.

Zebra3

Aegir wrote: »

heaven forbid a country should mark the centenary of an event that cost over 800,000 lives on their side alone :rolleyes:

Maybe they’d be better off looking into the history of it and apportioning blame to the bastards who led those to their deaths for nothing.

[Deleted User]

Zebra3 wrote: »

Maybe they’d be better off looking into the history of it and apportioning blame to the bastards who led those to their deaths for nothing.

They do. Have you not heard the expression “Lions lead by Donkies”?

The fact that millions were conscripted and forced to fight makes it even more important that they are remembered, no?

Elmer Blooker

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It wasn't invented. It was the first war where machine guns were used on an industrial scale. The only alternative for both sides after a brief war of movement was to dig in and take cover.

Are Am Eye

Yes, trench warfare evolved as opposed to being planned.

For that segment of time that the Howitzers and Machine Guns existed and Armored attack didn't exist the infantry assault simply didn't work. The General's solution to it not working was to try it on a larger scale. It didn't work on a larger scale. It not working of course meant millions of dead young men.

BBDBB

"to a whole generation that were butchered and damned"

buried

The place could be cursed. They robbed one of the Obelisks from Heliopolis back in the 19th Century and stuck it there on the Thames and ever since then, they have slid into the $hit. One of the Directors of one of the London Museum's back in the late 19th century, Sir Wallace Budge was his name?, claimed to have said one of the Gilded Mummy cases they took from the Temple of Amen-Ra was cursed and caused the First World War “Never print this in my lifetime, but the mummy case of Princess Amen-Ra caused the war.” The Americans have the other twin Helipolis Obelisk in Central Park. The two of them stood beside each other in front of the huge temple back in Egypt around the time of Moses. Lots of workmen died bringing both them over. Them ancient Egyptians, I dunno. Could be something in it. Could be bull$hit. Interesting anyways.

TheQuietFella

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Is that because you are a racist or just that your ideas are racist?

Neither but my thoughts would be probably viewed as such!

Capt'n Midnight

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

The British Empire was finished decades ago.

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon
in six volumes published between 1776 and 1789 as an attempt to explain that. Brexit doesn't need six volumes it's got six letters.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

The main thing that will be learned is whether a country can leave and sink or swim after leaving the EU, the second thing is whether Ireland can survive the shock of the leaving.

Make no mistake, the UK will survive.
But it won't thrive. They've already lost a full year of growth. And the stats on people borrowing and running up credit cards are scary.

Predictions are that we'd loose 7% of growth, but depending on how you view Leprechaun stats we'd grow the economy by that in a year or two. For us it's a massive single speedbump, for the UK it's a sports injury that just doesn't heal.

[Deleted User]

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Make no mistake, the UK will survive.
But it won't thrive. They've already lost a full year of growth. And the stats on people borrowing and running up credit cards are scary.

Predictions are that we'd loose 7% of growth, but depending on how you view Leprechaun stats we'd grow the economy by that in a year or two. For us it's a massive single speedbump, for the UK it's a sports injury that just doesn't heal.

I have no doubt that GB will survive as a nation (NI may be jettisoned though), economically, it will have a difficult time though. The issue is as to whether the EU will try to make the break harder than necessary and cause a larger slowdown that what can be expected in the short term. The longer term will be much harder to predict as it will depend on what trade deals are made with the global economies. The City will find a way to operate as a global financial hub regardless, there is too much at stake to let it fail.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no doubt that GB will survive as a nation (NI may be jettisoned though), economically, it will have a difficult time though. The issue is as to whether the EU will try to make the break harder than necessary and cause a larger slowdown that what can be expected in the short term. The longer term will be much harder to predict as it will depend on what trade deals are made with the global economies. The City will find a way to operate as a global financial hub regardless, there is too much at stake to let it fail.

The only problem with ditching NI is that Scotland might leave too.

Scotland has resources so would be a shoe in for EFTA , a Norway deal would suit them as they have most of the UK oil and whisky, and most of the fish and not so much of the service industry and they get to keep the pound and overall it's too far from full EU membership. And Scotland is a better fit as a Nordic nation than the UK is, also their population isn't bigger than the rest of the EFTA.

The EU have made it very, very clear that UK services won't be getting a free ride. It's set in stone that the UK can't get as good a deal as if they stayed in. The EU has told the Swiss that they'll be getting no deals until the UK leave in case it gives the UK leverage, and the Swiss ain't happy about that.

As for the "trade deals" , India has put more visas front and centre, the US wants to remove lots of EU rules on stuff like food safety and labelling, Americans will be able to sell "Cornish Pasties" containing chlorinate chicken, GMO veg, antibiotic-ed hormoned beef that isn't tested for mad cow disease , corn syrup and whatever else is cheap.

The middle class in the UK may soon be like the middle class in China, paying more for certain brands because are EU approved (but about 10-20% more expensive because of tariffs and regulations) but the poor will have to take what they can afford.