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The fall of the British Empire

Atoms for Peace

It looks like it's the end for Britain. Brexit, social disintegration, political instability, a failing health and welfare system all seem to be combining in a grotesque death spiral.
Can we learn from anything from their example or are we to doomed to failure?

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Ipso

gw80 wrote: »

I never said anything about glory days,
Some people are pushing this idea that Britain is going to turn into a near third world country, look at Switzerland and Norway, not in the eu, doing quite alright for themselves, i could see Britain eventually coming to a similar level and standing as these countrys

I don't think Brexit will be a disaster, just more of a nuisance without the promised utopia.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Cina wrote: »

The UK has been more and more of a non entity on the world stage for decades now and it's their own misplaced arrogance in thinking they still are that brought along something as idiotic as Brexit.

If they're a non entity god knows what that makes us.

dinorebel

Cina wrote: »

The UK has been more and more of a non entity on the world stage for decades now and it's their own misplaced arrogance in thinking they still are that brought along something as idiotic as Brexit.

4th or 5th biggest economy and 5th or 6th militarily yep definitely a non entity. Obviously not a superpower but hardly insignificant.

Atoms for Peace

Europe is lost, America lost, London lost,
Still we are clamouring victory,
All that is meaningless rules,
We have learned nothing from history,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSVyyykaEOo

[Deleted User]

gw80 wrote: »

I never said anything about glory days,
Some people are pushing this idea that Britain is going to turn into a near third world country, look at Switzerland and Norway, not in the eu, doing quite alright for themselves, i could see Britain eventually coming to a similar level and standing as these countrys

The reason Norway did so well was they kept/privatised their share of the oil in the north sea and other energy production methods, which gave them a reserve to develop their economy.

The British did/do benefit from Nothsea oil they lost out comparitely by selling their stake off to private companies. Same thing we are doing and losing out on.

Ipso

DubInMeath wrote: »

The reason Norway did so well was they kept/privatised their share of the oil in the north sea and other energy production methods, which gave them a reserve to develop their economy.

The British did/do benefit from Nothsea oil they lost out comparitely by selling their stake off to private companies. Same thing we are doing and losing out on.

Yeah, but no.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Since the1950s, during times of labour shortages, there were active campaigns to get the former colonials over to boost the workforce. I somehow think that the idea of them staying wasn't thought through enough. They were just seen as "resources" (no different to the way businesses look at staff these days) that could be discarded when finished with.

More recently though, they have been seen as a way of pulling wages down by employing then and undercutting locals who are forced to work for less or stay on the dole. The very people who voted leave!

True but this has been the case since the Thacher era due to the loss of unions and support for them.

My Dads uncle went to England in the fifthies as a brickie as was seen as a way of bringing down wages by the English guys on the site, but we're fine with it once they were paid more than the Irish etc.

indioblack

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

It looks like it's the end for Britain. Brexit, social disintegration, political instability, a failing health and welfare system all seem to be combining in a grotesque death spiral.

And we were beaten at rugby.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Since the1950s, during times of labour shortages, there were active campaigns to get the former colonials over to boost the workforce. I somehow think that the idea of them staying wasn't thought through enough. They were just seen as "resources" (no different to the way businesses look at staff these days) that could be discarded when finished with.

More recently though, they have been seen as a way of pulling wages down by employing then and undercutting locals who are forced to work for less or stay on the dole. The very people who voted leave!

Precisely. It is the British Tory rightwing/business class, and not the EU, which is by far most responsible for immigration. But as members of that same class own the British media and constitute most Tory politicians, the EU is scapegoated for everything and that class wrap themselves around the Union Jack while continuing to support more immigration as their means to get cheaper labour. And the local working class British population whose economic prosperity/wages is challenged by such immigration react by supporting the very rightwing business community that is most keen to keep immigration high.

Zebra3

Maybe the Brits could force opium on to the Chinese again to give their economy a boost.

[Deleted User]

Ipso wrote: »

Yeah, but no.

How so?

Ipso

DubInMeath wrote: »

How so?

Well the Irish government can't implement a payroll system for the payroll service or decide what to do on water charges, do you really trust them in getting into an industry they have no experience in?
Besides, hasn't the Corrib well not panned out as thought? Oil exploration can be a risky venture, all it would take is one exploration costing god knows what and yielding nothing for everyone to start complaining.
Besides, Norway's oil industry isn't nationalized. Venezuela's is, smashing spot I hear.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

The greatest fear amongst the EU elite (& multinational business leaders) is that if the UK finds a way to not fail and decline further

Which is precisely why Britain will fail, just like it ensured groups that undermined British power were taught a lesson throughout history. Very close to where I live is a Gallow's Hill, as there are across Ireland. It was used by the British to teach us a lesson about power every time we rose up. Every dog has his day. It's messing with the wrong crowd now, a group that can fight back and put Britain in its place.

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU has been very successful in concentrating great power (politically and financially) into the hands of a very small number of people.

The people in the UK are pulling back from that.

And who are these mysterious people? Do they include the thousands of British citizens working for the EU? And just how many people in Britain are controlling that country? 5 or 6 oligarchs own most of the British media, perhaps 1000 people own most of Britain? One, Richard Scott owns no fewer than 240,000 acres of land. One-third of Britain still belongs to an aristocracy. And where oh where is the permanent government of Britain, the civil service, drawn from? The deprived inner city schools, or Oxon and Cantab? If that's not a perpetual elite, I don't know what is.

Two of my immediate family work with the EU and have lived in Brussels since the mid-1980s. Both had a very ordinary education in local schools and got their EU jobs through an open process, not based on the school they went to or other class-based networks. None of the elite old boys network bollocksology which dominates in the British civil service. The EU has acted as a balance, a counter, to the dominance of that unelected elite, just as EU courts have acted as a check on abuses by other class-ridden British institutions.

The British plebs are clearly very happy for power to be concentrated in the hands of their betters so forgive me if all I see in Brexit is ignorant poorer English people being led like puppets on a string by a media and class which will most benefit by power being even more concentrated in their hands back in Britain.

The irony that the British economy has flourished since Britain, the basket case which was rescued by the IMF in 1976, joined the EU is always overlooked. The EU saved Britain, which had been in unmistakable decline since at least 1921, in the 1970s, and leaving the EU will end that saving.

Anthony Hilton: "I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'"

RobbingBandit

April 1st 2019 The Empire Strikes Back

[Deleted User]

Ipso wrote: »

Well the Irish government can't implement a payroll system for the payroll service or decide what to do on water charges, do you really trust them in getting into an industry they have no experience in?
Besides, hasn't the Corrib well not panned out as thought? Oil exploration can be a risky venture, all it would take is one exploration costing god knows what and yielding nothing for everyone to start complaining.
Besides, Norway's oil industry isn't nationalized. Venezuela's is, smashing spot I hear.

Norway have a higher stake and return in their national resources than we do however, but that's due also to inept ministers here and some have a nasty taste in their mouth given it was ray burke that rewrote the regulations and that an envalope or two might have been involved

Agree on the payroll system, but government contacts to private enterprise are always cash cows for the companies involved.

Water was due to more people power and FG realising it might cost them an election especially due to their reluctance to state it wouldn't be privatised. Having my own well and not being on a water supply, I didn't believe that I was going to see any of my taxes that go to pay for the water infrastructure returning to my pocket.

Ipso

How was it given away? Who apart from an exploration company could get at it? Norway also allows companies to write of exploration costs, which can be high and often exploration has no results.
Aside from the original farmers protests, the whole Shell issue was another pity party with Ireland being a victim, yet again.

end of the road

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Well surely if brexit is the right thing, then the break up of the UK is also the right thing. Unless the whole thing is just about "Union of countries where England isn't the leader" = bad, but "union of countries where England is the leader" = good .

Surprised Nigel Farage isn't campaigning for a break up..........

that would require him to actually turn up to something.

[Deleted User]

Ipso wrote: »

How was it given away? Who apart from an exploration company could get at it? Norway also allows companies to write of exploration costs, which can be high and often exploration has no results.
Aside from the original farmers protests, the whole Shell issue was another pity party with Ireland being a victim, yet again.

This is what we charge

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/natural-resources/topics/Oil-Gas-Exploration-Production/licensing/Pages/Oil-and-Gas-Tax-Terms.aspx

This is what the Norwegians charge and retain a large stake in statoil

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Energy-and-Resources/gx-er-oil-and-gas-taxguide-norway.pdf

To me it would appear that they get a greater return.

Chrongen

Turkey is moving towards Russia.
They have threatened Paris if France attempt to arm the Kurds
and cause more havoc in the Middle East.

Hungary will vote to distance itself from the Washington and London farce this weekend.

From a distance it's an absolute comedy

dd972

There's been no British Empire for decades, unless you include the Isle of Wight, Gibraltar, the Falklands and the Nordies, Brexit will be so watered down it'll be barely negligible as well.

Elmer Blooker

I see Britain's admirable efforts to bring democracy to the world go on. Only yesterday they opened their first overseas military base in 40 years in Bahrain of all places! https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/bahrain
Actually, on second thoughts they are more likely there to prop up this lovely regime!
This base will have 600 military personnel, the Iranians must be gicking themselves!

twinytwo

Deleted User wrote: »

The main thing that will be learned is whether a country can leave and sink or swim after leaving the EU, the second thing is whether Ireland can survive the shock of the leaving.

Well really it boils down to if the EU will try to sink the country that leaves.... remember the last thing the elites in the EU need is the UK prospering without them in case anyone else wants out.

We are also in this situation because the EU likes to bury it's head in the sand and ignore any of its issues. Cameron tried to get the issues for the UK addressed and he was basically told to jog on.

Zebra3

dd972 wrote: »

There's been no British Empire for decades, unless you include the Isle of Wight, Gibraltar, the Falklands and the Nordies, Brexit will be so watered down it'll be barely negligible as well.

The Empire Mentality is alive and kicking though.

[Deleted User]

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I see Britain's admirable efforts to bring democracy to the world go on. Only yesterday they opened their first overseas military base in 40 years in Bahrain of all places! https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/bahrain
Actually, on second thoughts they are more likely there to prop up this lovely regime!
This base will have 600 military personnel, the Iranians must be gicking themselves!

It is all part of this: https://combinedmaritimeforces.com/about/

But i'm sure you knew that, didn't you.

Elmer Blooker

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Empire Mentality is alive and kicking though.

It's getting worse!
Example: There was a time when the Poppy remembrance was a dignified affair with the poppy only worn for a few days around the Sunday and commemorated those from two World Wars. Look at it now, it has turned into an orgy of British nationalism and has got to the stage when people are afraid NOT to wear it.
We know all about James McClean, he would get less aggro if he committed mass murder!

But i'm sure you knew that, didn't you.

But ....... what about spreading democracy?

[Deleted User]

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

But ....... what about spreading democracy?

what about it?

[Deleted User]

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I see Britain's admirable efforts to bring democracy to the world go on. Only yesterday they opened their first overseas military base in 40 years in Bahrain of all places! https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/bahrain
Actually, on second thoughts they are more likely there to prop up this lovely regime!
This base will have 600 military personnel, the Iranians must be gicking themselves!

I saw Bahrain was in the news a few days ago for refusing to let an Irish human rights campaigner into the country to visit a Bahraini activist who was tortured and given a life sentence on trumped up charges back in 2011. In the 5 years after then the British sold them 45 million pounds of military equipment compared to just 6 million in the 3 years before.

Mr Dooley is a member of the Gulf Centre for Human Rights and a senior advisor with Human Rights First, he claims he has been banned from Bahrain for six years for documenting human rights abuses.

He said he thinks it's vital to continue this work, saying: "Bahrain needs to be constantly challenged about it torture, its targeting of human rights activists, its banning of the political opposition.

"Preventing members of parliament, human rights groups and journalists from entering the country shows how much the regime has to hide

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-human-rights-campaigner-refused-entry-to-bahrain-36774371.html

Atoms for Peace

The Poppy malarky has gotten totally out of hand, worst type of cheap tabloid jingoism.

Del.Monte

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

It's getting worse!
Example: There was a time when the Poppy remembrance was a dignified affair with the poppy only worn for a few days around the Sunday and commemorated those from two World Wars. Look at it now, it has turned into an orgy of British nationalism and has got to the stage when people are afraid NOT to wear it.
We know all about James McClean, he would get less aggro if he committed mass murder!

But ....... what about spreading democracy?

Ah come on, it's a bit early for the annual Poppy Day thread.

Pepefrogok

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Empire Mentality is alive and kicking though.

But is it kicking as hard as the old Irish republican victim mentality?