Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Then maybe it is many men who are the problem in Ireland. That somehow bizarrely think that they are entitled to rape.

Do you want us to be like a muslim country where women are covered head to toe, and their brothers accompany them everywhere?

These countries are usually condemned for the human rights abuses of women.

OR

Do you want to educate men in this country. That is where the change needs to be made

Sure. That seems like a pretty good plan. You have any solid ideas about what form this would take? How success would be achieved?

If there's an issue with men who "somehow bizarrely think that they are entitled to rape" then do you think they are doing this simply due to lack of education?

They don't know it's wrong and that's why they are doing it? That's easy to teach. Don't do this. It's both morally abhorrent and illegal.

Or they do know it's wrong and just don't care? How do you educate against that?

You said earlier in the thread:

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I fight for her and other women like her.

And I ask, how?

Let's put the anecdotes and speculation on where blame should lie aside.

How do you fight? How long have you been fighting for? What victories have you won?

Most importantly, what can other people do to join that fight?

My view here is that some people is pushing the idea of personal responsibility. I do not agree with this view very much but I have to concede that not going to that persons house would logically result in avoidance of that situation.

We can call it victim blaming and I think that maybe it is victim blaming and I agree that it's wrong to do that.

They are, at worst, offering advice that is... offensive or hurtful?

Following their advice would lead to a reduction of incidences of this crime, right? That's logical?

So you've got something better or more effective to offer?

No fantastical notions of mind control please. Most rapists, especially in the scenario you described, know with certainty that what they are doing is committing a disgraceful crime.

ShowMeTheCash

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Then maybe it is many men who are the problem in Ireland. That somehow bizarrely think that they are entitled to rape.

Do you want us to be like a muslim country where women are covered head to toe, and their brothers accompany them everywhere?

These countries are usually condemned for the human rights abuses of women.

OR

Do you want to educate men in this country. That is where the change needs to be made

Countries where women can be stoned to death? Countries where woman are beheaded for crimes against Islam?
These countries?

wexie wrote: »

Of course.

But the argument here seems to be made that there is no such thing as women going to VIP sections in nightclubs or houseparties looking for sex. Which is complete and utter nonsense.

Now while I'm not happy with automatically labeling them as sluts or 'consenting' by being there I equally don't agree with the argument women (as well as men) don't go looking for it.

Seem to be a lot of people here who are quite happy to overlook or deny realities which don't fit their argument. Whichever side that might be.

There has not been any argument that some women don't go looking for sex. Sex is to be enjoyed by people who chose to have it, men and women alike. This is not up for debate - the idea that there are scenarios where it can be expected as standard is what is up for debate

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Yes. Definitely the same. I was thinking exactly that. :rolleyes:

I suppose at least you didn't preface it with "so you're saying".

So I'll just remove the analogy part. Now you can address the points and I don't need to cop on.

This is where you are banging your head against a brick wall called "Reality".

From a philosophical point of view you've got it right. How is it my responsibility if I was assaulted? It's the attackers responsibility not mine!

Problem. The attacker is behaving irresponsibly. They could go to prison or get hurt themselves or even just face a public shaming but they've evaluated that risk and decided to go through with it anyway.

So how can I defend against that? By putting responsibility for my safety in the hands of someone who might want to do me harm?

That's great that I can win an online argument and all but what if I just don't want to get hurt?

So how far do you take that.

Don't walk on a dangerous street alone at night.
Don't go to a house party with people you don't know.
Don't go to a house party at all (because you may not know everyone at a party and may get separated from a friend).
Don't be alone with a man you don't know.
Don't be alone with any man (a lot of victims know and trusted their rapists until the point they were raped)
Don't have any consensual sexual activity if you aren't willing to risk penetration...he may get carried away.
Don't get into a relationship with a man (rape within relationship happens).

Is there a full list of things people shouldn't do to avoid rape?

I don't think many people go out of their way to put themselves in danger, and to live with the fear of everything you lead possibly leading to rape, or assault is a terrifying way to live. Some times people do silly things that leave themselves a little more vunreable, some times things happen no matter how 'safe' you have been.

Instead of focusing on what victims can do. Lets focus on people having a bit of respect for who they encounter, encouraging communication so that grey areas of consent are not so grey, no labelling people who choose to have sex, threesomes etc as 'sluts' or 'manwh*res' in a derogatory way. Allow people to own their sexuality and be confortable expressing their boundaries clearly.

This won't stop the violent rapist who goes out of his way to rape someone - the ones that are not the majority. But it will stop the cases where people misunderstand the level of consent, people are afraid to say no or stop, and people just feeling like something is a forgone conclusion with no discussion around it.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would see both the party and travelling to Tunisia as analogies.

The purpose of these analogies is to illustrate that you might decide to avoid Tunisia as a destination due to the dangers involved.

Now if we could agree on that then could we transfer the acknowledgement of personal responsibility in one arena and then acknowledge it in a different scenario.

The point is not to say "they are exactly the same thing" the point is to ask why you would agree with personal responsibility in one instance but not in the other.

Imagine I serve you a bowl of porridge and you say "it's too cold" then I serve you another bowl and you say "it's too hot". Now say I want to find out where your line is between "too cold" and "too hot". I may offer up several bowls of porridge with varying temperatures to see where you draw your lines, and maybe with a bit of luck, to even get yourself to look at where they draw their own personal lines. Bowls of porridge are an analogy for analogies. How'd ya like that?

So, I would say here that you can easily win the Internet Argument. OF COURSE the full responsibility and punishment should land squarely in the face of the perpetrator of the crime.

In reality though what if I want to avoid being the victim of the crime in the first place?

Ask the f*cked up individual who do this kind of sh!t to please not do that?

sydthebeat

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Then maybe it is many men who are the problem in Ireland. That somehow bizarrely think that they are entitled to rape.

Do you want us to be like a muslim country where women are covered head to toe, and their brothers accompany them everywhere?

These countries are usually condemned for the human rights abuses of women.

OR

Do you want to educate men in this country. That is where the change needs to be made

wow, this is literally the definition of a straw man argument !!!

you create a falsehood, in order to argue against it.

Of course education is always required, it has been when i grew up, it is now, and it will be in the future. It hasnt suddenly become a requirement due to something that happened last week.
Education comes in many forms, and i would argue formalised lecture type in classrooms is actually a very poor method. Education in these matters comes first and foremost from the home, from life experience and from society in general.

The strawman argument your trying to put forward is that society educates man "to think they are entitle to rape".... which i am calling complete BS on.
No right minded person in irish society think this.

Permabear

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zedhead wrote: »

So how far do you take that.

Don't walk on a dangerous street alone at night.
Don't go to a house party with people you don't know.
Don't go to a house party at all (because you may not know everyone at a party and may get separated from a friend).
Don't be alone with a man you don't know.
Don't be alone with any man (a lot of victims know and trusted their rapists until the point they were raped)
Don't have any consensual sexual activity if you aren't willing to risk penetration...he may get carried away.
Don't get into a relationship with a man (rape within relationship happens).

Is there a full list of things people shouldn't do to avoid rape?

I don't think many people go out of their way to put themselves in danger, and to live with the fear of everything you lead possibly leading to rape, or assault is a terrifying way to live. Some times people do silly things that leave themselves a little more vunreable, some times things happen no matter how 'safe' you have been.

Instead of focusing on what victims can do. Lets focus on people having a bit of respect for who they encounter, encouraging communication so that grey areas of consent are not so grey, no labelling people who choose to have sex, threesomes etc as 'sluts' or 'manwh*res' in a derogatory way. Allow people to own their sexuality and be confortable expressing their boundaries clearly.

This won't stop the violent rapist who goes out of his way to rape someone - the ones that are not the majority. But it will stop the cases where people misunderstand the level of consent, people are afraid to say no or stop, and people just feeling like something is a forgone conclusion with no discussion around it.

I don't know how far you take it and I don't know what can be done.

It's probably something that can be looked at as a whole spectrum of situations with different contributing factors.

Obviously the man who goes to a party with bad intentions and the man who mistakenly thinks that his really drunk girlfriend is reciprocating are different.

So it really would have to be taken on a case by case basis.

I don't think patronizing stuff like "teach men not to rape" can be helpful here and I can acknowledge that locking women in a cellar isn't going to be a good solution either.

So maybe some kind of balance between advising personal responsibility and more open and transparent education could be an answer?

zedhead wrote: »

Instead of focusing on what victims can do. Lets focus on people having a bit of respect for who they encounter, encouraging communication so that grey areas of consent are not so grey,

How's about we do both?

FrancieBrady

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There is a 'culture' of not raping you might say?

kylith

Invariably in threads like these women are either naive idiots who should have expected something bad to happen for going back to a man’s house OR man hating feminazis who assume all men are rapists if they don’t go back to a man’s house.

Some men will throw their eyes up to heaven and wring their hands about the death of casual sex and how you can’t even talk to women without being labelled a sex pest, while simultaneously saying that a woman who goes off with a guy and winds up raped brought it on herself for being so stupid, basically.

Others will whinge about it ruining sex when someone suggests taking literally 2 seconds to check with someone if everything’s cool.

Some men will point out that that men aren’t psychic and that women should say no of thy’re not happy while others are saying that men ‘just know’ if a woman is up for it even if she has previously said no to something.

So basically it comes down to the fact that we should trust men, except that we shouldn’t trust men. But we should magically know which men we can and can’t trust, and if we don't we’re feminazis and if we do we should have known not to when something bad happens.

Have I missed anything?

Maxpfizer wrote: »

I don't know how far you take it and I don't know what can be done.

It's probably something that can be looked at as a whole spectrum of situations with different contributing factors.

Obviously the man who goes to a party with bad intentions and the man who mistakenly thinks that his really drunk girlfriend is reciprocating are different.

So it really would have to be taken on a case by case basis.

I don't think patronizing stuff like "teach men not to rape" can be helpful here and I can acknowledge that locking women in a cellar isn't going to be a good solution either.

So maybe some kind of balance between advising personal responsibility and more open and transparent education could be an answer?

I think the 'teach men not to rape' is a bit simplistic. I think the reality is a lot of people (both men and women) think sex is a foregone conclusion from certain scenarios and so do not consider their actions rape. If they made that connection they probably would not do it. There is an attitude among groups of people that sex is a prize to be won rather than a mutual encounter between consenting people.

Lets address those attitudes and beliefs through the open and transparent education.

wexie wrote: »

How's about we do both?

Again, how do you advocate personal responsibility? How far is safe enough for people?

Game Face MCGee

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Zulu wrote: »

I feel sorry for the girl, whether or not she was telling porkies or not, it's a sorry sorry affair.

How the bloody hell can you feel sorry for a liar??

I don't think she's a liar, thats the problem with situations like the one in question is she genuinely believes she was "raped" so she not lying (and being the big lads say she is only make u look like a fool).
However that is her perception, the evidence has shown she was not raped. ie the accused were found not guilty.
There will be an element of society who will side with her feelings and perception (no matter what happens they will believe she was rape) and another who will vilify her as a lair and disgrace.
Everyone one else will sit in the middle and see both sides to this case and agree justice was served and call it for what it was, a 3some which went wrong for the girl (regret and subsequent belief she was raped) and the lads (ended up defending their actions in court)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

zedhead wrote: »

Again, how do you advocate personal responsibility? How far is safe enough for people?

So we just shouldn't bother right? Is that what you're saying?

How do you feel about that? Seems like good advice no? Do you think we should just replace those signs with other ones saying : don't rob people's stuff?

backspin.

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Then maybe it is many men who are the problem in Ireland. That somehow bizarrely think that they are entitled to rape.

Do you want us to be like a muslim country where women are covered head to toe, and their brothers accompany them everywhere?

These countries are usually condemned for the human rights abuses of women.

OR

Do you want to educate men in this country. That is where the change needs to be made

You seem to believe rape happens because men have not been given enough education on the matter. That is incredibly naive. Some men are brutes and know well what they are doing is wrong but they do it anyway. There are bad people out there.

Appledreams15

zedhead wrote: »

I think the 'teach men not to rape' is a bit simplistic. I think the reality is a lot of people (both men and women) think sex is a foregone conclusion from certain scenarios and so do not consider their actions rape. If they made that connection they probably would not do it. There is an attitude among groups of people that sex is a prize to be won rather than a mutual encounter between consenting people.

Lets address those attitudes and beliefs through the open and transparent education.

Again, how do you advocate personal responsibility? How far is safe enough for people?

I wouldn't think that a man coming back to my house means he wants to have sex.

I would never make that presumption.

I wish I hadnt read this thread.

Women shouldn't wear this. Women shouldn't go there.

Not that I think that it is my fault for doing either of these things, but has shown me the very worrying mentality of some men.

I am going to be volunteering with Syrian refugees in June in Turkey. This thread has genuinely put fear into my mind. Will I be safe? Should I not go? Is this thread how many men think?

optogirl

kylith wrote: »

Invariably in threads like these women are either naive idiots who should have expected something bad to happen for going back to a man’s house OR man hating feminazis who assume all men are rapists if they don’t go back to a man’s house.

Some men will throw their eyes up to heaven and wring their hands about the death of casual sex and how you can’t even talk to women without being labelled a sex pest, while simultaneously saying that a woman who goes off with a guy and winds up raped brought it on herself for being so stupid, basically.

Others will whinge about it ruining sex when someone suggests taking literally 2 seconds to check with someone if everything’s cool.

Some men will point out that that men aren’t psychic and that women should say no of thy’re not happy while others are saying that men ‘just know’ if a woman is up for it even if she has previously said no to something.

So basically it comes down to the fact that we should trust men, except that we shouldn’t trust men. But we should magically know which men we can and can’t trust, and if we don't we’re feminazis and if we do we should have known not to when something bad happens.

Have I missed anything?

Kylith, I love you.

fattymuatty

kylith wrote: »

Invariably in threads like these women are either naive idiots who should have expected something bad to happen for going back to a man’s house OR man hating feminazis who assume all men are rapists if they don’t go back to a man’s house.

Some men will throw their eyes up to heaven and wring their hands about the death of casual sex and how you can’t even talk to women without being labelled a sex pest, while simultaneously saying that a woman who goes off with a guy and winds up raped brought it on herself for being so stupid, basically.

Others will whinge about it ruining sex when someone suggests taking literally 2 seconds to check with someone if everything’s cool.

Some men will point out that that men aren’t psychic and that women should say no of thy’re not happy while others are saying that men ‘just know’ if a woman is up for it even if she has previously said no to something.

So basically it comes down to the fact that we should trust men, except that we shouldn’t trust men. But we should magically know which men we can and can’t trust, and if we don't we’re feminazis and if we do we should have known not to when something bad happens.

Have I missed anything?

^^This, a million times this!

Game Face MCGee

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Maxpfizer wrote: »

But they do.

You are stuck in the idea that "taking personal responsibility" is equal to "it's your own fault if something bad happens".

You can win a fight on The Internet this way, sure. It's clear that you can't just have a "well it's your own fault anyway" attitude towards victims, that's horrible.

In reality though?

There are bad people and they will do bad things. It's always been that way and it always will be.

You could ask them not to do the bad things. Plead with them. Threaten them with prison time, even execution in some countries. Yet they still persist.

So we take an individual and give them a choice. Put your safety in the hands of others, potentially bad people. Or take responsibility for your own safety.

Your reaction? Can't we just tell the rapists not to rape?

Why have humans built walls and armies and the like when they could have just asked invaders to please not do that anymore?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda

"Don't tell us to build walls and train soldiers, tell Cromwell to stop conquering"

It's not a question of who's at fault. We all know who's in the wrong here and it's not the victims. Everyone agrees with that.

You can't simply deny reality because it makes a nice catchy slogan.

Then maybe it is many men who are the problem in Ireland. That somehow bizarrely think that they are entitled to rape.

Do you want us to be like a muslim country where women are covered head to toe, and their brothers accompany them everywhere?

These countries are usually condemned for the human rights abuses of women.

OR

Do you want to educate men in this country. That is where the change needs to be made

educate the country (I presume you mean young men and boys when you say this) on what tho? not to rape? I would hazard a guess that the vast vast majority of men in this country know not to do this, really look around you at the men you know? are they all budding rapist waiting to pounce, no they are not, get some perspective

wexie wrote: »

So we just shouldn't bother right? Is that what you're saying?

How do you feel about that? Seems like good advice no? Do you think we should just replace those signs with other ones saying : don't rob people's stuff?

So what should the poster say that is warning women to take personal responsibility? What is an acceptable level or risk someone should take considering the HUGE variety of scenarios in which rape occurs.

If someone gets pick-poketed we don't automatically say 'well what were they expecting when they went out carrying a bag'

kylith

wexie wrote: »

So we just shouldn't bother right? Is that what you're saying?

How do you feel about that? Seems like good advice no? Do you think we should just replace those signs with other ones saying : don't rob people's stuff?

HArdly the same thing. Big Bad Rapists know what thwy’re Doing is wrong, but the guy throwing an extra vodka into a girl’s glass so she gets drunk faster probably wouldn’t see himself as a Rapist, even though what he’s doing is pretty skeevy. Consent classes would be for all young people and would focus on ‘if you have to badger her into it then she probably doesn’t want to’ and ‘take 2 seconds to check your sexual partner would like to try the thing with the chains and ball weights before you get them out’.

zedhead wrote: »

If someone gets pick-poketed we don't automatically say 'well what were they expecting when they went out carrying a bag'

Nor do we (or at least not me) tell rape victims that they should have expected it.
But that doesn't make good advice any less valid.

Are you honestly saying that despite the fact we know there are murderers and rapists and pickpockets out there (and we can't change that fact) nobody should ever, for any reason and under any circumstances evaluate and minimize the risks they are putting themselves in?

optogirl

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

educate the country (I presume you mean young men and boys when you say this) on what tho? not to rape? I would hazard a guess that the vast vast majority of men in this country know not to do this, really look around you at the men you know? are they all budding rapist waiting to pounce, no they are not, get some perspective

I think the consent classes and education is for everyone - not just men & boys. I don't now why you would make that presumption. It wont stop the stranger pouncing on you down a lane attack but it might clarify for both men & women what is acceptable behaviour and that being explicit about what you want & do not want to happen can avoid any unnecessary confusion or upset later. I really think the notion of checking in with your sexual partner has to become as routine as using contraception. the real issues arising out of this trial are less about whether it was rape or not, but the absolute inhumanity this girl was treated with - thrown home bloody & hysterical and then called a slut & laughed at by the grown men who used her. That's what people are hoping to change - that manky attitude.

sydthebeat

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I am going to be volunteering with Syrian refugees in June in Turkey. This thread has genuinely put fear into my mind. Will I be safe? Should I not go? Is this thread how many men think?

surely you discussed with the group you are volunteering with as to how your personal safety will be ensured??

it would be incredibly naive not have have discussed this in HUGE detail

[Deleted User]

hill16bhoy wrote: »

There is a widespread culture of rape within prisons.

Not in ours there’s not. Allow me to post this again.

I work in a prison. I work with actual and factual scumbags day in and day out. They are what a lot of people would consider lowlifes. So imagine how morally deplorable a rapist must be in society if society’s rejects absolutely abhor them and won’t mix with them. They long to carve them up and boil sugary water to destroy their skin with. It’s that extreme, that a separate prison is needed for sex offenders, never mind a separate wing. A whole different building is warranted for these dirt bags such is the bile directed at them. So you have the lowest of the low.... about 300 feet of crap... and then the sex offenders. Everyone rejects these scum. Rape is abhorred by every facet of decent society and, tellingly, indecent society.

Keep in mind this is from someone who spends far more time in a prison than he does with his own family and has done for the last ten years. Real life experience trumps your keyboard bashing and ramblings. Rape is not acceptable in this country by 99.99% of people. That does not a culture make.

wexie wrote: »

Nor do we (or at least not me) tell rape victims that they should have expected it.
But that doesn't make good advice any less valid.

Are you honestly saying that despite the fact we know there are murderers and rapists and pickpockets out there (and we can't change that fact) nobody should ever, for any reason and under any circumstances evaluate and minimize the risks they are putting themselves in?

Lots of people do say that. It is rife on this thread and in attitudes!

People do evaluate and minimize risks all the time! But its not specific to rape, its just getting on with life. Sometimes people take risks, people rarely do that thinking that they are going to be rapes/murdered/robbed/assaulted. They have assessed the risk and thought it was worth taking.

kylith wrote: »

HArdly the same thing. Big Bad Rapists know what thwy’re Doing is wrong, but the guy throwing an extra vodka into a girl’s glass so she gets drunk faster probably wouldn’t see himself as a Rapist, even though what he’s doing is pretty skeevy. Consent classes would be for all young people and would focus on ‘if you have to badger her into it then she probably doesn’t want to’ and ‘take 2 seconds to check your sexual partner would like to try the thing with the chains and ball weights before you get them out’.

Where or when did I mention consent classes?

I'm simply saying that there are bad people out there and wishing them away doesn't make them go away.

You can chose to accept that and minimize the risks to yourself as much as you can, or you can chose not to and decry the fact there are bad people out there.

Really up to you and I don't particularly care which way you go nor will I loose sleep over it, but I know what I'll be teaching my daughters, just as my son will never need consent classes.

Dravokivich

kylith wrote: »

HArdly the same thing. Big Bad Rapists know what thwy’re Doing is wrong, but the guy throwing an extra vodka into a girl’s glass so she gets drunk faster probably wouldn’t see himself as a Rapist, even though what he’s doing is pretty skeevy. Consent classes would be for all young people and would focus on ‘if you have to badger her into it then she probably doesn’t want to’ and ‘take 2 seconds to check your sexual partner would like to try the thing with the chains and ball weights before you get them out’.

Why do we need consent classes?

To me it just seems like something trotted out to look like "an issue" is being addressed.