Maxpfizer wrote: » What would you teach in consent class? "Don't use the word slut, ever." These texts were sent in private so what does it matter how they were referring to anyone? It was a private conversation among friends, wasn't it? A problem I am having here is that it seems like only 1 of the 4 accused used the word "slut"? So what are the other 3 guilty of? That they didn't say "don't use that word". Would this whole thing be any better if they had said "delightfully promiscuous young lady"? From what you've said here it seems that you would imagine a "consent class" as a vehicle for affecting people in such a way that even in private conversations they feel an authoritarian guiding hand influencing which words they use and how they use them. Who are you to say what people should and should not say to each other in private? How far would you like to take it? Should all conversations be made public and anyone falling foul of our acceptable behavior laws should face criminal charges and be punished by the state?
razorblunt wrote: » Loose/Easy. I've heard this being used/referred to by women. A friend of mine plays camogie at a relatively decent level, she has some stories about the carry on in their dressing rooms too. Let's not pretend this is male only. Wasn't "sooo Samantha" a thing for a while when Sex in The City was in its prime?
joe40 wrote: » It is not the actual words themselves but the attitude they convey that is important. If I described a black person as a "negro" or a catholic as a "fenian" I am showing a derogatory attitude to those groups of people. Probably actual consent classes would not help, would not help but overall the values of a society can change. They have already and overall for the better This is not about words it is about mutual respect for each other. If my daughter was with a guy who regularly refered to women as sluts he would be no man at all in my eyes. I was a young man once as were my mates, plenty of sexual encounters with bragging, detailsetc but never once did anyone call another girl a "slut" Adults here should be leading by example
FrancieBrady wrote: » Negro and fenian do not describe behaviour and are not in themselves derogatory. Are you proposing that you cannot say derogatory things about certain behaviours?
Permabear wrote: » This post had been deleted.
joe40 wrote: » It is not the actual words themselves but the attitude they convey that is important. If I described a black person as a "negro" or a catholic as a "fenian" I am showing a derogatory attitude to those groups of people. Probably actual consent classes would not help, would not help but overall the values of a society can change. They have already and overall for the better This is not about words it is about mutual respect for each other. If my daughter was with a guy who regularly refered to women as sluts he would be no man at all in my eyes. I was a young man once as were my mates, plenty of sexual encounters with bragging, details etc but never once did anyone call another girl a "slut" Adults here should be leading by example
joe40 wrote: » Ah c'mon now you know Its not talking about behaviour it is referring to people. The problem is referring to women as sluts. It is not complicated. If our boy Leo called called Mary Lou a "fenian" she might well be personally pleased but there would be outcry. My point is words and language are important
yourdeadwright wrote: » I wonder will schools around the country be forced to run classes to teach the women and men of this country that when one is found innocent on a court of law one should be looked on as innocent, There all loons , Could you imagine the outrage if there poor son's or Husbands where found innocent of something and then slandered all over the papers , They'd be marching for weeks,
yourdeadwright wrote: » What is worse , As private wats app group calling a women a slut and other not so nice tings things , Or a women seemingly falsely accusing 2 men of rape in public ? ( remember they where found not guilty as there was not evidence to back her story up )
Maxpfizer wrote: » Who are you to say what people should and should not say to each other in private? How far would you like to take it? Should all conversations be made public and anyone falling foul of our acceptable behavior laws should face criminal charges and be punished by the state?
zedhead wrote: » yourdeadwright wrote: » I wonder will schools around the country be forced to run classes to teach the women and men of this country that when one is found innocent on a court of law one should be looked on as innocent, There all loons , Could you imagine the outrage if there poor son's or Husbands where found innocent of something and then slandered all over the papers , They'd be marching for weeks, yourdeadwright wrote: » What is worse , As private wats app group calling a women a slut and other not so nice tings things , Or a women seemingly falsely accusing 2 men of rape in public ? ( remember they where found not guilty as there was not evidence to back her story up ) So i fully accept that they were acquitted of the charges and should be allowed to go on with their lives. I don't think their names should have been made public as it is in ireland, but it has happened now. I think as public figures linked to the IRFU the details of the now public text messages and the attitudes they displayed should be reviewed (not the fact they were accused of rape). The big problem I have is that people think that the not guilty verdict automatically think that it is a false accusation. Its not that there was not evidence to back up her story, its that there was reasonable doubt. Maybe because everyone had a different account of what happened. Or maybe because rape is incredibly hard to prove without doubt. What evidence do you think would have been accepted in a case like this as being inconclusive? If she was charged and went through the courts now for a false accusation and found not guilty, would that mean these men were automatically guilty? No because they have already been found not guilty. Because of so many people loudly proclaiming she is a liar who has ruined these boys lives, it deters victims from coming forward as the fear is without conclusive proof they will be seen the same way. (for balance I have issues with the #ibelieveher going around as i don't think in the long run it is going to help. It is focusing too much on this case and really the issue is much bigger. Encouraging victims to come forward without fear of judgement)
Gunmonkey wrote: » Well not everyone at first. First we would have those representing Ireland (int sports players, government ministers and ambassadors) before slowly moving onto anyone employed by the state (public servants, RTE/TG4/RTERadio presenters) and finally onto everyone else. Now this system will have to be thorough; I'm talking emails, texts, whatsapp-style chata apps, letters, birthday cards, greeting cards, any form of recorded conversation, and this will be all released online for the public to peruse. There will be the matter of compiling a database of "bad words" to filter the personal info for, but not that hard to create. At first it will be a 2 stroke system, so either the person themselves uses a bad word or the person communicates back with one of the banned phrases. Potential to evolve to a 3 stroke system, whereby any acquaintance of the defendant in question using a bad word outside of a communication with the defendant can be considered grounds for having the defendants career terminated....but that's getting ahead of ourselves, lets get the basic framework in place first!
Maxpfizer wrote: » We need to be sure to disregard context too. Why stop at messages sent and received? Let's incorporate browsing history, Netflix preferences etc. Sure we could probably come up with an algorithm that predicts how likely it is that someone will use a certain word. If it would end "Rape Culture" then I'm all for it. Sure, if we're doing it for the greater good then what could possibly go wrong? Lads, maybe we could alter language itself so that people won't even be able to think bad thoughts?
joe40 wrote: » If that means telling both not to refer to women as sluts I'll do that.
joe40 wrote: » I have a 12 year old son and a 14 year old daughter and overall happy with the society they are going out into,
anthonyjmaher wrote: » Four high profile people are found innocent of rape.
Maxpfizer wrote: » You could TELL them not to refer to women that way but would you be willing to FORCE them not to refer to women that way? For me, that's a valid and important talking point here. These Whatsapp messages were private and not intended to be read by anyone other than the recipients. ONE person used the forbidden word but all 4 recipients are shouldering the blame and that blame is spreading to society at large. Use of said words is being portrayed as a legit danger to society in the form of Rape Culture. However, we do not know these men. I doubt many of us would want to. We don't know the dynamics of their friendships and so we don't fully understand the context under which the bad words were used. Society: You can't say that! Individual: How can you stop me? What's the next move for our society?
professore wrote: » I also find it bizarre that using the woman's knickers as evidence is somehow horrific but the idea that she would go back to the house with 4 men she doesn't know from Adam drunk where sex was obviously the logical conclusion or at least on the menu is somehow less so? All sorts of sex acts are not shameful but seeing a woman's knickers is? For the record I don't think sex is shameful - well obviously rape is, but consensual sex is fine. What sort of society is so fixated on a WOMAN'S KNICKERS that you can see flapping in the breeze on washing lines up and down the country? Utterly bizarre. The weirdest double standard yet.
hill16bhoy wrote: » At least try and get your facts right before posting. Two people were on trial for rape, not four. And they weren't found innocent of the crime.
tayto lover wrote: » You haven't responded to my request for the stats regarding your Irish prison rape culture claim.
