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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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Appledreams15

Oaklyn Early Fauna wrote: »

I think the phrase "rape culture" really weakens any good arguments that some may make as for many it really does seem ridiculous that rape is part of who we are, our culture.

If it was, a perfect Irish day out would start by going to a good game of hurling and afterwards go to the local to listen to some good trad music and sink a few pints of the black stuff. To top it all off finish off the night by committing a good rape.

If it was part of our culture why isn't someone like Larry Murphy not seen as an Irish legend and someone to look up to like Paul O'Connell or Joe Canning? Why would men like me be absolutely horrified to be accused of rape?

I genuinely do find it hard to believe that it can be so prevalent as to be considered part of our culture.

Ask your female friends have they ever been raped/sexually assaulted and come back.

Just thinking of some singers lately:
Dolores O riordain and Sinead O Connor both said that they were sexually abused.

How many women do you want to see sexually abused before it is a rape culture.

Thousands upon thousands of women stating that they have been raped / sexually assaulted s an inclination of rape culture, yes

Appledreams15

UnknownSpecies wrote: »

I just find it so disrespectful to men all over Ireland that we are being told there is a ****ing rape culture amongst us. As if on some level, men all over Ireland are OK and accepting of rape. Absolute nonsense.

The backlash against men in the aftermath of this trial has been disillusioning. Being told that you are basically a rape apologist if you agree with the verdict. Implying that just because the accused were also men, we would be happy to let rapists walk the street just for a perceived 'win' for our gender. Of bloody course we would want them locked up if the evidence stacked against them.

So what do you think of the current incredibly low rape conviction percentage rate in Ireland?

Amirani

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape is a crime perpetrated by individual rapists.

Rape culture allows individual rapists to believe they can get away with rape and sexual assault and encourages men to believe that such things are not that big a deal. It normalises and trivialises rape, sexual assault and dehumanising, misogynist behaviour and views.

If, for instance, a man believes that if a woman doesn't scream or fight it can't be rape, he is more likely to perpetrate a rape.

If a man believes that a woman cannot withdraw consent during consensual sex, he is more likely to perpetrate a rape.

If a man believes that a woman entering a bedroom means automatic consent, he is more likely to perpetrate a rape.

Rape culture needs to be obliterated.

None of those statements suggest a "rape culture" exists in Ireland, which would suggest that rape is supported or at least trivialised by a significant portion of the population. This is patently not true, by any discernable metric. You have no stats to prove the existence of such a culture of acceptance of rape.

Outlandish statements like these do significant damage to rape victims and potential rape victims. How do you think it feels to have been raped and then have someone (wrongly) tell you that a significant portion of the population condones or has no problem with what happened to you? Completely insensitive bull****.

Appledreams15

Luxxis wrote: »

A radio host said stuff people. That means its cultural.

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

Appledreams15

Delighted the other player is under review. I knew it was him from his initials.

Appledreams15

Amirani wrote: »

None of those statements suggest a "rape culture" exists in Ireland, which would suggest that rape is supported or at least trivialised by a significant portion of the population. This is patently not true, by any discernable metric. You have no stats to prove the existence of such a culture of acceptance of rape.

Outlandish statements like these do significant damage to rape victims and potential rape victims. How do you think it feels to have been raped and then have someone (wrongly) tell you that a significant portion of the population condones or has no problem with what happened to you? Completely insensitive bull****.

The statistic of the low rape conviction rate! That's an inportant one.

Silentcorner

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

Listowel got a right bashing over it at the time if memory serves me right.

The mad thing is though, if he hadn't been captured on CCTV carrying the woman out of the niteclub, and if the guards hadn't come across him, the chances are there would have been no conviction and we'd all have been calling her a lier!!

Amirani

Appledreams15 wrote: »

The statistic of the low rape conviction rate! That's an inportant one.

Absolutely agree that the low conviction rate is problematic. But it is in no way indicative of a general acceptance of rape in Ireland. The overwhelming majority of people in this country abhor rape and those who perpetrate it.

Ulysses Gaze

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

I guess you forgot the national outrage towards that case in Listowel.....

tayto lover

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

A man in Cavan murdered his wife and three children a year or two ago.
Many people praised him for being a great father and community worker at the time.

Is there a murder culture too?

hill16bhoy

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Ask your female friends have they ever been raped/sexually assaulted and come back.

Just thinking of some singers lately:
Dolores O riordain and Sinead O Connor both said that they were sexually abused.

How many women do you want to see sexually abused before it is a rape culture.

Thousands upon thousands of women stating that they have been raped / sexually assaulted s an inclination of rape culture, yes

The vast majority of priests in this country are not and were not sexual abusers.

But it would be interesting to see how many posters would disagree with the assertion that there was a culture of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church in this country.

That culture did not just involve the abusers themselves, it involved denials and cover ups, and attempts to deny justice to its victims.

The exact same principle is at work here.

ShowMeTheCash

hill16bhoy wrote: »

You're rabbit holing again.

There is such a thing as a racist culture.

I have never heard the term "racist culture" I have however heard the term cultural racism which does not mean what you are suggesting.
Cultural racism is an attempt to understand unequal status due to ones culture apposed to say the color of their skin... But I am sure you already knew that!

hill16bhoy wrote: »

There are cultures of criminality.

Is that a culture of crime or crime within different cultures?

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Your mistake is that you cannot acknowledge that there is no such a thing as a negative, harmful, culture.

Oh I agree some traditions or cultural practices are harmful, we just don't have a "rape culture"

hill16bhoy wrote: »

What has been seen on this thread, in fact we're still seeing it right now, is belief that the things that constitute the examples of rape culture that I gave are acceptable.

So even by your own stated definition of what a culture is, rape culture is very real.

You have demonstrated time and time again you are talking about things that are beyond you. Even in the examples above you do a poor job and give bad analogies as you clearly fail to understand them.

Silentcorner

tayto lover wrote: »

A man in Cavan murdered his wife and three children a year or two ago.
Many people praised him for being a great father and community worker at the time.

Is there a murder culture too?

Actually there is ya...there is the existence in this country of a Special Criminal Court....it is juryless...it exists for a very good reason.

The fact that the vast majority of us do not engage in murder does not negate that courts existence.

One eyed Jack

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape is a crime perpetrated by individual rapists.

At least you're willing to acknowledge this much. Rape has nothing to do with any of the other items on your list.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape culture allows individual rapists to believe they can get away with rape and sexual assault and encourages men to believe that such things are not that big a deal. It normalises and trivialises rape, sexual assault and dehumanising, misogynist behaviour and views.

Nope, 'rape culture' is a term invented by fringe feminist theorists to ascribe all sorts of normal social behaviours as contributing factors to rape. The wingnuts who invented the term understand just how it works in using society's revulsion of rape to suggest that there is indeed a culture of misogyny among men which contributes to the approximately 7% of the population who commit rape. You're a long way from demonstrating that social norms contribute to a culture of rapists who share a common set of characteristics, traditions and beliefs that is only present among the male population.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

If, for instance, a man believes that if a woman doesn't scream or fight it can't be rape, he is more likely to perpetrate a rape.

If a man believes that a woman cannot withdraw consent during consensual sex, he is more likely to perpetrate a rape.

If a man believes that a woman entering a bedroom means automatic consent, he is more likely to perpetrate a rape.

Because rape requires the commission of the act of rape, you're still a long way from connecting the dots between a man's thoughts, and the commission of the act itself. Thankfully, for the vast majority of people, both men and women in society, "thought crimes" are not actually a thing.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape culture needs to be obliterated.

The term itself needs to be obliterated, as it isn't at all helpful in addressing the issues of rape and sexual assault, and I would give a hell of a lot more credence to the experience of an organisation like RAINN, than I would lend any credence whatsoever to fringe feminists political... musings, which come off as more of an attempt to demonise men and perpetuate paranoia, fear distrust among women of men.

freshpopcorn

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Ask your female friends have they ever been raped/sexually assaulted and come back.

Just thinking of some singers lately:
Dolores O riordain and Sinead O Connor both said that they were sexually abused.

How many women do you want to see sexually abused before it is a rape culture.

Thousands upon thousands of women stating that they have been raped / sexually assaulted s an inclination of rape culture, yes

Is it only women that get sexually abused?

ShowMeTheCash

Appledreams15 wrote: »

So what do you think of Ireland having an exremely low rape conviction rape.
And there not being a review of the process for as long back as I can remember

Because it is near impossible to know if someone consented or did not consent in a private setting.....

Why do you think the conviction rate is low?

Nermal

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape culture is referring to women as animals in language.

Is it worse to be called a bitch than a bastard?

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape culture is referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms.

Sex has been described this way since the dawn of time, in all cultures, in all art forms. Not exclusively and always like this, but a lot of the time.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Rape culture is the denial that there is a problem with any of this.

I must be in denial so, because a lot of what you describe is within the norms of human behaviour. You just have a problem with male dominance; with the usual (not always, I stress usual) dynamic of male and female behaviour - that men push for as much as they can get, and it's up to women to set limits. When you're so at odds with society, you're the problem, not it.

tayto lover

Silentcorner wrote: »

Actually there is ya...there is the existence in this country of a Special Criminal Court....it is juryless...it exists for a very good reason.

The fact that the vast majority of us do not engage in murder does not negate that courts existence.

There is no culture of murder.
Murders like every other crime happen regularly but there is no culture of murder just like there is no culture of rape.

Creol1

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Did you agree with what that radio host said?

Because there was widespread support for his comments. Do you disagree with that assertion?

Widespread support for such comments implies agreement with such comments. Do you disagree with that assertion?

That does indeed mean there is a culture of believing that a woman can be to blame for her own rape. Do you disagree with that assertion?

That is rape culture. Do you disagree with that assertion?

My recollection is that the radio host in question was widely condemned and his career effectively ended.

UnknownSpecies wrote: »

I just find it so disrespectful to men all over Ireland that we are being told there is a ****ing rape culture amongst us. As if on some level, men all over Ireland are OK and accepting of rape. Absolute nonsense.

The backlash against men in the aftermath of this trial has been disillusioning. Being told that you are basically a rape apologist if you agree with the verdict. Implying that just because the accused were also men, we would be happy to let rapists walk the street just for a perceived 'win' for our gender. Of bloody course we would want them locked up if the evidence stacked against them.

Further to this, I would point out that, as per the below link, male-majority juries are more likely to convict men accused of rape than female-majority juries. A bit odd for a male-centred rape culture.

I would also note that not only is rape utterly unacceptable to the vast majority of men, but in prisons with the most hardened criminals, e.g., murderers, arsonists, you will actually find that rapists need protection and are often kept apart from other prisoners in the interests of their own safety. That is the opposite of what you would expect if we lived in a "rape culture".

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/stanford-rape-case-female-dominated-juries-less-likely-to-convict-in-rape-cases-404525.html

Roger Hassenforder

hill16bhoy wrote: »

What has been seen on this thread, in fact we're still seeing it right now, is belief that the things that constitute the examples of rape culture that I gave are acceptable.

So even by your own stated definition of what a culture is, rape culture is very real.

Your examples dont constitute proof of a rape culture, or of a prevalent attitude, that rape is acceptable, no matter how hard you insist.

I think youll be hard pressed, even within this hotbed of misogyny to find a man that:

(a) doesnt utterly condem rape, and/or sexual assault againt man, woman or child.
(b) who doesnt wish for harsher sentences for those convicted of rape
(c) who genuinely believes if shes not fightin', you're not rapin'
(d) would not accept a "No", rather than a "maybe/maybe not"
(e) thinks a girl was "asking for it" for deserved to be raped

Yes, we have isolated examples of rapes. Men as outraged as women. Example today, a man convicted of raping sisters in the longest rape trial in the state. Where's the men of ireland clamouring to his defence, to denounce the verdict? #ibelievehim mob that would charachterise a rape culture?

If we had a rape culture, a very measurable metric would be whether men or women are more likely to convict in rape trials. Obviously the male, immersed in his patriarchy enabled rape culture, would assume the complainant was asking for it, and move to acquit the poor defendant...
If only there was such a statistic..

Silentcorner

tayto lover wrote: »

There is no culture of murder.
Murders like every other crime happen regularly but there is no culture of murder just like there is no culture of rape.

It is not what you consider a murder culture, but yet, in this State, we have what is widely regarded as a highly controversial Juryless Court that deals with serious crime, organised crime in which there very much is a culture of murder.

It doesn't mean we are stepping over bodies on the street.

Roger Hassenforder

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

What about the 1.6 million men who didnt.

hill16bhoy

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I am never heard the term "racist culture"

I'm not particularly interested in what terms you have or haven't heard.

Do you believe there is a culture of racism amongst, say, members of the BNP or the EDL in Britain or the National Front in France?

Was there a culture of racism in English football crowds in the 1970s?

A culture of racism is a racist culture.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Is that a culture of crime or crime within different cultures?

Examples of cultures of criminality include the Dublin gang culture, the drink driving culture in rural areas, and the culture of tax evasion among white collar types in this country in the 1980s and 1990s.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Oh I agree some traditions or cultural practices are harmful, we just don't have a "rape culture"

You have demonstrated time and time again you are talking about things that are beyond you. Even in the examples above you do a poor job and give bad analogies as you clearly fail to understand them.

A culture which fails to recognise things that are categorically rape as rape, which seeks to mitigate rape, which seeks to put any blame for rape onto victims, which seeks to out complainants and brand them as a "liar", and which deliberately seeks to trivialise and ridicule objections to such, is categorically a rape culture. Accepting any of that means you are a participant in rape culture.

I get all this just fine, thanks.

Many clearly don't.

Tipcorlad

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Because it is near impossible to know if someone consented or did not consent in a private setting.....

Why do you think the conviction rate is low?

The conviction rate is so low because we have a legal system that is stacked against a victim of rape.
It is so low because of the rape myths that are so common in everyday life, many seen here on tbis thread
It is so low because reasonable doubt has been made out by defence laywers to be any doubt at all, not any reasonable doubt. I believe that girls account but based on the law i couldnt have found them guilty as there is always room for a tiny bit of doubt in a he said she said. But the evidence should carry the most weight. A woman can have an internal tear, be seen to be hysterical by a completely independant witness, have bloodstained clothes, have her blood on the duvet where she claims to have been raped, tell friends immediately, have a medical exam within 24hrs, go to the police and still it is not enough.
I think a rape case (possibly all criminal cases) should be judged by judges who are specially trained to disregard rape myths.
The new Icelandic law seems positive. Enthusiastic consent. What everyman having sex should want.

tritium

hill16bhoy wrote: »

So, you've read through the examples of rape culture I gave and decided that they are not problematic.

You've demonstrated right here that you have a serious problem as regards knowing what consent is.

No I’ve demonstrated that I think you’re talking ****e since I in no way would take what you described as cultural norms

Silentcorner

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Your examples dont constitute proof of a rape culture, or of a prevalent attitude, that rape is acceptable, no matter how hard you insist.

I think youll be hard pressed, even within this hotbed of misogyny to find a man that:

(a) doesnt utterly condem rape, and/or sexual assault againt man, woman or child.
(b) who doesnt wish for harsher sentences for those convicted of rape
(c) who genuinely believes if shes not fightin', you're not rapin'
(d) would not accept a "No", rather than a "maybe/maybe not"
(e) thinks a girl was "asking for it" for deserved to be raped

Yes, we have isolated examples of rapes. Men as outraged as women. Example today, a man convicted of raping sisters in the longest rape trial in the state. Where's the men of ireland clamouring to his defence, to denounce the verdict? #ibelievehim mob that would charachterise a rape culture?

If we had a rape culture, a very measurable metric would be whether men or women are more likely to convict in rape trials. Obviously the male, immersed in his patriarchy enabled rape culture, would assume the complainant was asking for it, and move to acquit the poor defendant...
If only there was such a statistic..

To be fair mate, the vast amount of people who believe that the young lady in this case is not telling the truth were basing that on the fact that a witness felt what she saw was a consensual threesome....because the victim did not fight or scream.

tayto lover

Silentcorner wrote: »

It is not what you consider a murder culture, but yet, in this State, we have what is widely regarded as a highly controversial Juryless Court that deals with serious crime, organised crime in which there very much is a culture of murder.

It doesn't mean we are stepping over bodies on the street.

You need to look at the history of why the SCC was set up.
It was for subversive cases and now it includes gangland cases where witnesses might be intimidated and as such is juryless.
The Central Criminal Court hears most murder and rape cases and it has a jury.

tritium

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

So firstly it wasn’t just men who did that

Secondly the town was rightly excoriated

Would WARs campaign to have false rape accusers go unpunished demonstrate misandry culture btw?

Creol1

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Will we add the 50 men shaking a rapist's hand to it?

Will we add the fact that the accused was unanimously convicted by a 12-member jury, 10 of whom were men, to it?

Roger Hassenforder

Silentcorner wrote: »

To be fair mate, the vast amount of people who believe that the young lady in this case is not telling the truth were basing that on the fact that a witness felt what she saw was a consensual threesome....because the victim did not fight or scream.

Theres a lot more to this sorry mess than is being made available. I dont think it was thrown out on just the DF evidence.

Theres learnings for both jurisdictions, not to increase the conviction rate, but to ensure a fairer system exists for both complainant and defendant though.