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Inter-union talk | Equal Pay for Equal Work $$$See warning in OP$$$

SligoBrewer

How long will it have to be before we get the opportunity to go on strike for this?

What mandates have to be sorted, etc.
What is stopping the TUI from exercising their mandate?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%^^^%^%%%%%%%%

A lot of off topic posts deleted and warnings/INFRACTIONS given.
Keep it civil and avoid tit for that derailing.

Also try to be respectful of people trying to engage with the issues who are unaware of previous threads trashing out the details. At least they take an interest!
Thanks
MOD

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Icsics

It will have to be all Unions together on this & let’s face it TUI have let us down before. What’s happened to the TUI grassroots movement? Emergency motion to be debated at conferences

rainbowtrout

INTO won't go on strike. INTO never go on strike, no matter how bad it gets.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

While in theory I agree with 'equal pay for equal work' , in reality it will bother me as an ASTI member to strike on behalf of NQTs.

In my school , none of the NQTs from this year and last year are ASTI members . Also, to be honest the low calibre and poor professional conduct I have seen from NQTs over the last few years does not warrant equal pay.

Perhaps my school is an exception?

For example I have seen NQTs / PMEs very inappropriately dressed ( females particularly - short skirts, vest tops etc..), on their phones texting/ on internet constantly while supervising, frequently late for class / work , poor subject knowledge and overall poor professionalism in how they address students and other staff ( e.g. Over familiarity, over sharing with students) .

Perhaps this is a result of the poorer working conditions and reluctance to pursue teaching as a profession, but am I the only one who will resent striking on their behalf, losing pay while they still get paid?

r93kaey5p2izun

I hope we strike soon. TUI have a mandate for industrial action up to and including strike already so it's very frustrating. Having listened to executive members speak at branch meetings over the past few months - meetings where there is a call for strike action at each and every one - I think the executive is hoping to find a valid reason for strike that won't mean repudiating the new agreement. I think they are trying to use the effects of the teacher shortage as a reason - with pay inequality pushed as the main reason for the shortage. I wish they would just go for it. There's zero hope of INTO striking though.

Rosebush, I haven't seen anything of what you describe among NQTs. I have had concerns around subject knowledge of certain student teachers but not anyone actually hired in the school. Most of the NQTs and LPTs in my school aren't union members at all but I have no qualms striking for pay equality because it's the right thing to do.

poster2525

Hi Rosebud

I'm classified as an NQT although I've been teaching for over 15 years (I completed my post primary qualification post 2011). I would consider myself reasonably well educated: I've two degrees, a Masters in Education and two Professional Diplomas in Education.

I wouldn't consider myself to be of a low calibre and I believe I warrant equal pay. Nobody has yet to comment on my appearance to date. I'm a TUI member and I don't use the Internet at work unless I'm taking attendance or accessing online resources (I host my own website).

I won't highlight my personal background (children, travel, etc) as that would be over sharing. I'm usually one of the first to arrive at work and one of the last to leave.

I won't be paid this summer and will be unemployed again in 2 months. Your comments are very telling. I will probably walk away from teaching this year.

Amari Tight Landscape wrote: »

While in theory I agree with 'equal pay for equal work' , in reality it will bother me as an ASTI member to strike on behalf of NQTs.

In my school , none of the NQTs from this year and last year are ASTI members . Also, to be honest the low calibre and poor professional conduct I have seen from NQTs over the last few years does not warrant equal pay.

Perhaps my school is an exception?

For example I have seen NQTs / PMEs very inappropriately dressed ( females particularly - short skirts, vest tops etc..), on their phones texting/ on internet constantly while supervising, frequently late for class / work , poor subject knowledge and overall poor professionalism in how they address students and other staff ( e.g. Over familiarity, over sharing with students) .

Perhaps this is a result of the poorer working conditions and reluctance to pursue teaching as a profession, but am I the only one who will resent striking on their behalf, losing pay while they still get paid?

judeboy101

I see no issue with short skirts, would you rather sister Imelda with her measuring tape?

Benicetomonty

Amari Tight Landscape wrote: »

While in theory I agree with 'equal pay for equal work' , in reality it will bother me as an ASTI member to strike on behalf of NQTs.

In my school , none of the NQTs from this year and last year are ASTI members . Also, to be honest the low calibre and poor professional conduct I have seen from NQTs over the last few years does not warrant equal pay.

Perhaps my school is an exception?

For example I have seen NQTs / PMEs very inappropriately dressed ( females particularly - short skirts, vest tops etc..), on their phones texting/ on internet constantly while supervising, frequently late for class / work , poor subject knowledge and overall poor professionalism in how they address students and other staff ( e.g. Over familiarity, over sharing with students) .

Perhaps this is a result of the poorer working conditions and reluctance to pursue teaching as a profession, but am I the only one who will resent striking on their behalf, losing pay while they still get paid?

Tbh I can see a lot of ASTI members in particular feeling the same way as this. Whilst there is a very strong representation of LPTs here and on social media in general, it is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore the likelihood that such individuals are in the minority when it comes to real committment to combating the unequal pay scales.

I read this morning that ASTI membership has dropped to its lowest level since 1995, which is a direct result of last year's industrial action. I am aware that the majority who left were permanent CIDs, and I would still hold a fair amount of contempt for these people whose myopia caused them to abandon all union principles (not to mention accepting the new JC) for the few crumbs that the govt were offering. But Im much more deflated at the number of NQTs who did likewise.

In my place and many, many others Im aware of, the vast majority of NQTs left the ASTI and joined the TUI. Anecdotal you may say but thats been my experience and it makes the many months I spent on the sidelines pretty hard to swallow, in retrospect. I said crumbs earlier; the 'payrise' and s and s money were obviously an insult but for people missing out on increments by a few weeks or days, this has been an expensive year, and watching the very people you're sacrificing for turn tail at the first threat or offer from the govt was frustrating to say the least.

Im now forced to wonder whether or not I should class the CID members who left as traitors or just advocates of common sense. What I know for sure is a lot of members of my staff will certainly think twice before taking industrial action on this issue again, regardless of recommendations or cross union cooperation. And at this point, its becoming harder to argue with them.

judeboy101

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Amari Tight Landscape wrote: »

While in theory I agree with 'equal pay for equal work' , in reality it will bother me as an ASTI member to strike on behalf of NQTs.

In my school , none of the NQTs from this year and last year are ASTI members . Also, to be honest the low calibre and poor professional conduct I have seen from NQTs over the last few years does not warrant equal pay.

Perhaps my school is an exception?

For example I have seen NQTs / PMEs very inappropriately dressed ( females particularly - short skirts, vest tops etc..), on their phones texting/ on internet constantly while supervising, frequently late for class / work , poor subject knowledge and overall poor professionalism in how they address students and other staff ( e.g. Over familiarity, over sharing with students) .

Perhaps this is a result of the poorer working conditions and reluctance to pursue teaching as a profession, but am I the only one who will resent striking on their behalf, losing pay while they still get paid?

Tbh I can see a lot of ASTI members in particular feeling the same way as this. Whilst there is a very strong representation of LPTs here and on social media in general, it is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore the likelihood that such individuals are in the minority when it comes to real committment to combating the unequal pay scales.

I read this morning that ASTI membership has dropped to its lowest level since 1995, which is a direct result of last year's industrial action. I am aware that the majority who left were permanent CIDs, and I would still hold a fair amount of contempt for these people whose myopia caused them to abandon all union principles (not to mention accepting the new JC) for the few crumbs that the govt were offering. But Im much more deflated at the number of NQTs who did likewise.

In my place and many, many others Im aware of, the vast majority of NQTs left the ASTI and joined the TUI. Anecdotal you may say but thats been my experience and it makes the many months I spent on the sidelines pretty hard to swallow, in retrospect. I said crumbs earlier; the 'payrise' and s and s money were obviously an insult but for people missing out on increments by a few weeks or days, this has been an expensive year, and watching the very people you're sacrificing for turn tail at the first threat or offer from the govt was frustrating to say the least.

Im now forced to wonder whether or not I should class the CID members who left as traitors or just advocates of common sense. What I know for sure is a lot of members of my staff will certainly think twice before taking industrial action on this issue again, regardless of recommendations or cross union cooperation. And at this point, its becoming harder to argue with them.

Not one asti to tui convert in my school went out on the recent lunchtime protest (and there were quite a few such converts). Says it all really.

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Not one asti to tui convert in my school went out on the recent lunchtime protest (and there were quite a few such converts). Says it all really.

Exact same !
Anyway the Asti have threatened strike action in the next school year and not around exam time this year as was suggested /hoped for by many on here as it would be most effective .
I don’t want to say I told ye so but.........

evolving_doors

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Tbh I can see a lot of ASTI members in particular feeling the same way as this. Whilst there is a very strong representation of LPTs here and on social media in general, it is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore the likelihood that such individuals are in the minority when it comes to real committment to combating the unequal pay scales.

I read this morning that ASTI membership has dropped to its lowest level since 1995, which is a direct result of last year's industrial action. I am aware that the majority who left were permanent CIDs, and I would still hold a fair amount of contempt for these people whose myopia caused them to abandon all union principles (not to mention accepting the new JC) for the few crumbs that the govt were offering. But Im much more deflated at the number of NQTs who did likewise.

In my place and many, many others Im aware of, the vast majority of NQTs left the ASTI and joined the TUI. Anecdotal you may say but thats been my experience and it makes the many months I spent on the sidelines pretty hard to swallow, in retrospect. I said crumbs earlier; the 'payrise' and s and s money were obviously an insult but for people missing out on increments by a few weeks or days, this has been an expensive year, and watching the very people you're sacrificing for turn tail at the first threat or offer from the govt was frustrating to say the least.

Im now forced to wonder whether or not I should class the CID members who left as traitors or just advocates of common sense. What I know for sure is a lot of members of my staff will certainly think twice before taking industrial action on this issue again, regardless of recommendations or cross union cooperation. And at this point, its becoming harder to argue with them.

I can see your point as it feels like fighting a loosing battle for people who aren't pushed either way.
But... it can't be used as an issue to polarise a group into NQT's vs everyone else ('who sold them out in the first place.. etc':rolleyes:). It has to be viewed as an issue for the profession overall. An attack on one section is an attack on the overall profession, and we have seen the overall profession suffering as a result, with good teachers taking their skills abroad, or potentially excellent candidates choosing a different career path for better pay.
In the end everyone suffers the consequences of that, be it through teacher shortage issues, further media hysteria over 'teacher's and unions to blame for everything', or further 'improvements to the system to compensate' which are crushing morale and killing goodwill. So despite my own reluctance I'd go out and protest while those who reap any benefits remain in the scratcher.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

poster2525 wrote: »

Hi Rosebud

I'm classified as an NQT although I've been teaching for over 15 years (I completed my post primary qualification post 2011). I would consider myself reasonably well educated: I've two degrees, a Masters in Education and two Professional Diplomas in Education.

I wouldn't consider myself to be of a low calibre and I believe I warrant equal pay. Nobody has yet to comment on my appearance to date. I'm a TUI member and I don't use the Internet at work unless I'm taking attendance or accessing online resources (I host my own website).

I won't highlight my personal background (children, travel, etc) as that would be over sharing. I'm usually one of the first to arrive at work and one of the last to leave.

I won't be paid this summer and will be unemployed again in 2 months. Your comments are very telling. I will probably walk away from teaching this year.

I am sorry I offended you with my post, yes I know there are many hard working NQTs and I am probably generalising based on the NQTs in my own school .

I suppose really I am concerned that teaching is becoming less-professional , perhaps due to the poor pay/ work conditions or perhaps due to the attitude of younger teachers towards teaching? Do you think that all the younger NQTs have the same work ethic as you?

Also In my school the problem is amplified by a disinterested principal who doesn't take notice of how new teachers are performing , and therefore many of them seem to end up with a CID after 2 years ( we have had a lot of early retirements in recent years), regardless of poor professionalism.

I too spent many summers working a second job, in fact it took me and about 8 other teachers who started with me 10 years to get full CID and many of us had to go to the labour court to get it. I know how difficult it is.

I voted no every time to the last ballots and willingly went in strike. However I know I am not the only ASTI member who will resent going in strike again if it comes to it, especially this year when we have lost so many days and will only have to stay back more after school to make up for time lost / finish courses.

54and56

SligoBrewer wrote: »

How long will it have to be before we get the opportunity to go on strike for this?

Are people with significantly different qualifications and years of experience really doing equal work? Do the recipients of their work receive the exact same quality of service?

I value expertise and experience. If I needed a heart operation (for example) I'd choose the highest qualified and most experienced surgeon I could afford over a less qualified and less experienced surgeon every time and would be prepared to pay more to that person for doing the same work that the latter could also do.

Why should education ignore the real world reality that higher qualified and experienced professionals are worth more and should be paid more than their less qualified and less experienced colleagues?

Does equal pay for equal work mean the more qualified and experienced teachers shall have to have their pay dropped down to the same level as their less qualified and experienced colleagues or is this an upward only version of equality?

TheDriver

please don't feed the trolls. I deleted a few posts as they make no sense when a post got deleted

r93kaey5p2izun

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Are people with significantly different qualifications and years of experience really doing equal work? Do the recipients of their work receive the exact same quality of service?

I value expertise and experience. If I needed a heart operation (for example) I'd choose the highest qualified and most experienced surgeon I could afford over a less qualified and less experienced surgeon every time and would be prepared to pay more to that person for doing the same work that the latter could also do.

Why should education ignore the real world reality that higher qualified and experienced professionals are worth more and should be paid more than their less qualified and less experienced colleagues?

Does equal pay for equal work mean the more qualified and experienced teachers shall have to have their pay dropped down to the same level as their less qualified and experienced colleagues or is this an upward only version of equality?

You are poorly informed on this issue. Your post is nonsense in the context of what's being discussed. I'm sure After Hours would welcome another teacher bashing thread full of comnents from people who don't even know the basics yet feel qualified to comment. Your comment, in the context of this forum, is embarrassing tbh. I'd be mortified to post something as poorly informed in another specialist forum.

doc321

TheDriver wrote: »

please don't feed the trolls. I deleted a few posts as they make no sense when a post got deleted

Do you do the same to your students when they aren’t in agreement with you?

< poster clearly registered to troll and drag off topic.
Banned for 1 week to cool down and reflect upon things.
Mod>

54and56

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

In my opinion Yyou are poorly informed on this issue and . Yyour post is nonsense in the context of what's being discussed.

Fixed that for you.

You seem very angry/frustrated and I'm not here to make that worse.

My post was predominantly a series of questions seeking input which might further shape my opinion on the issue being discussed. Apologies if that isn't permitted in this "specialist" thread.

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

I'm sure After Hours would welcome another teacher bashing thread full of comnents from people who don't even know the basics yet feel qualified to comment.

I've no interest in bashing Teachers, I think they do a very important job which the majority execute in a skilled and diligent manner.

Can you clarify what qualifications are needed to participate and comment on this issue other than having been taught by Teachers for 12 years as a kid myself, having been a parent as my own kids received their education for 12/13 years, being a taxpayer for the last 30 years paying towards the cost of public education and generally interested in current affairs?

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

Your comment, in the context of this forum, is embarrassing tbh. I'd be mortified to post something as poorly informed in another specialist forum.

Mortification and Easter, I see what you're doing there. Very timely indeed.

Anyway, enough with the amateur dramatics.

Given you clearly believe you are qualified to post in this specialist forum and are informed on the issues why don't you either respond to the points I raised or elucidate me and ignorant others on the issue being discussed so we don't repeat the mistake of not making the right comments?

km79

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/asti-and-into-vote-in-favour-of-ballot-on-joint-industrial-action-over-pay-equality-36770744.html

Next year of course .....

[Deleted User]

evolving_doors wrote: »

I can see your point as it feels like fighting a loosing battle for people who aren't pushed either way.
But... it can't be used as an issue to polarise a group into NQT's vs everyone else ('who sold them out in the first place.. etc':rolleyes:). It has to be viewed as an issue for the profession overall. An attack on one section is an attack on the overall profession, and we have seen the overall profession suffering as a result, with good teachers taking their skills abroad, or potentially excellent candidates choosing a different career path for better pay.
In the end everyone suffers the consequences of that, be it through teacher shortage issues, further media hysteria over 'teacher's and unions to blame for everything', or further 'improvements to the system to compensate' which are crushing morale and killing goodwill. So despite my own reluctance I'd go out and protest while those who reap any benefits remain in the scratcher.

It is telling how the comparison used for teachers salaries is now with those oil rich countries abroad and not other salaries in Ireland. Should ireland be trying to benchmark our salaries to the Arab countries?

As we know teachers are paid for 9 months work spread over the year which allows teachers to pick up other jobs during the summer, eg with the SEC. That leaves starting salaries of €4000 per month. Where are the graduates going that allows them start on greater than €48000 pro rata?

r93kaey5p2izun

Je_suis_Jean I'm not interested in discussing it with you nor informing you of the facts. This isn't the place for it. There's countless other previous threads where it has been discussed at length. It's plain to anyone who is familiar with the facts you don't understand the issue at hand, given the little heart surgery story you used. In my opinion the only qualification needed to jump into the middle of a thread like this would be knowing the facts - no suggestion of academic qualifications or experience was made. But you think you know so go on ahead - it's your right to post here of course. I merely said I personally would be embarrassed to do similar in for example the Legal forum or the Health Sciences forum. Best of luck.

27061986a

To be fair I think equal pay is beneficial in all professions. If newly qualified teachers get pay rises then I’d hope that nurses and doctors who are on new pay scales are aligned to those on the older pay scales in these professions.

judeboy101

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

In my opinion Yyou are poorly informed on this issue and . Yyour post is nonsense in the context of what's being discussed.

Fixed that for you.

You seem very angry/frustrated and I'm not here to make that worse.

My post was predominantly a series of questions seeking input which might further shape my opinion on the issue being discussed. Apologies if that isn't permitted in this "specialist" thread.

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

I'm sure After Hours would welcome another teacher bashing thread full of comnents from people who don't even know the basics yet feel qualified to comment.

I've no interest in bashing Teachers, I think they do a very important job which the majority execute in a skilled and diligent manner.

Can you clarify what qualifications are needed to participate and comment on this issue other than having been taught by Teachers for 12 years as a kid myself, having been a parent as my own kids received their education for 12/13 years, being a taxpayer for the last 30 years paying towards the cost of public education and generally interested in current affairs?

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

Your comment, in the context of this forum, is embarrassing tbh. I'd be mortified to post something as poorly informed in another specialist forum.

Mortification and Easter, I see what you're doing there. Very timely indeed.

Anyway, enough with the amateur dramatics.

Given you clearly believe you are qualified to post in this specialist forum and are informed on the issues why don't you either respond to the points I raised or elucidate me and ignorant others on the issue being discussed so we don't repeat the mistake of not making the right comments?

You were only taught by teachers for 12 yrs?

feardeas

This is nonsense. This would involve a starting teacher on full hours getting in the region of 12k from the SEC. It dia but happen.

Yes the holidays are there but do you divide your own pay pro rata and take into account your holidays etc.

The fact is everyone had an opportunity to fill out the CAO. If you think there is a shining city on the hill try coming to it. I'm sure you'll be welcome in most subjects bar perhaps maths.

[Deleted User]

feardeas wrote: »

This is nonsense. This would involve a starting teacher on full hours getting in the region of 12k from the SEC. It dia but happen.

Yes the holidays are there but do you divide your own pay pro rata and take into account your holidays etc.

The fact is everyone had an opportunity to fill out the CAO. If you think there is a shining city on the hill try coming to it. I'm sure you'll be welcome in most subjects bar perhaps maths.

I don't get you about the 12k thing.

No, I did not include my holidays just like I did not include the Easter, halloween and Christmas holidays teachers get.

I have absolutely no aptitude for teaching. I would have hoped teachers would have more respect for their profession and the kids than to suggest people unsuited to it should just fill out a form and apply.

How is it nonsense? What part of my calculation is wrong? What are these other graduate jobs that are paid more per month than teaching? I can't think of many. Especially outside of Dublin.

keoclassic

Easter: unions meet, big hullabaloo in the media, strong words etc, threaten strikes but not before summer.....teachers are too professional to disrupt the exams.
May: more talking.
June: holidays....we can deal with this in September
September: More talks of strikes
October: ballot
Nov/Dec/jan: some sort of token Action.......cancellation of strikes to allow for talks
Feb/ March: teachers complain not enough being done.....infighting begins again.
April: unions convention's.

On off Rinse and repeat since 2007.

y0ssar1an22

you'll have to forgive my ignorance on this topic.....

how were the newly qualified teachers salaries negotiated in the 1st place? who voted for them to be paid less? did older teachers do this to preserve their own pay?

if so, why dont all the younger teachers start their own union. screw over the old fogies.

km79

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

you'll have to forgive my ignorance on this topic.....

how were the newly qualified teachers salaries negotiated in the 1st place? who voted for them to be paid less? did older teachers do this to preserve their own pay?

if so, why dont all the younger teachers start their own union. screw over the old fogies.

Why don’t you read up on it and there there will be no need for the ignorance
Cos that is exactly what the last line of your post is .
Ignorant .

km79 warned for uncivil behaviour
Mod

27061986a

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

you'll have to forgive my ignorance on this topic.....

how were the newly qualified teachers salaries negotiated in the 1st place? who voted for them to be paid less? did older teachers do this to preserve their own pay?

if so, why dont all the younger teachers start their own union. screw over the old fogies.

I agree
Perhaps the older teachers should sacrifice something.

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

It is telling how the comparison used for teachers salaries is now with those oil rich countries abroad and not other salaries in Ireland. Should ireland be trying to benchmark our salaries to the Arab countries?

As we know teachers are paid for 9 months work spread over the year which allows teachers to pick up other jobs during the summer, eg with the SEC. That leaves starting salaries of €4000 per month. Where are the graduates going that allows them start on greater than €48000 pro rata?

Ah now salonfire you're still touting the 'starting salary' myth.
Is this guy on 4k a month starting salary.. after all he is on a salary and he is starting out?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/newly-qualified-teacher-i-had-to-drive-a-threehour-round-trip-to-give-one-40minute-class-on-four-hour-per-week-contract-36765238.html

[Deleted User]

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ah now salonfire you're still touting the 'starting salary' myth.
Is this guy on 4k a month starting salary.. after all he is on a salary and he is starting out?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/newly-qualified-teacher-i-had-to-drive-a-threehour-round-trip-to-give-one-40minute-class-on-four-hour-per-week-contract-36765238.html

Thanks for backing up my point.

Taking schools out on strike for pay equalization will help him jot. If his salary is increased, but still has only 4 hours per week, how is he any better off?

22% of NQT are given fully time positions btw.

evolving_doors

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

you'll have to forgive my ignorance on this topic.....

how were the newly qualified teachers salaries negotiated in the 1st place? who voted for them to be paid less? did older teachers do this to preserve their own pay?

if so, why don't all the younger teachers start their own union. screw over the old fogies.

It wasn't done through negotiating , it was introduced in the Dail through fempi. So the tired old maxim of 'older teachers selling out newer ones' is false and as you alluded to :ignorant.

Consequently the addage often subsequently trotted out 'well why didn't they protest and fight for them' also belies the subsequent events (which the ASTI members were pilloried for by relinquishing their increment and S&S payment).

So either way folk give out when there is protests and then give out when there isn't.