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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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[Deleted User]

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I often hear the word slut from men and women used to describe people and I'm the same age as the people involved. Even from out parents the word would be used.
I've never heard a man/woman of any age saying all women are sluts tough just certain people.

The subtleties of it, there is a difference between the conversation of a mixed group of social equals no matter how vulgar verse a group of men bigging themselves up by calling a woman one of them has sex with a slut she is not their social equal, she is one woman and they are a group of men, they have made her an object.

Mrsmum

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's a good job they are teaching consent in schools. When I was a youngster we all thought rape was fine.

Well actually rape within marriage wasn't even a crime until 1990 so yeah, your right, in the good old days plenty people thought certain rapes were fine unless your attacker jumped out from behind a bush and attacked you coming home from mass.

freshpopcorn

mariaalice wrote: »

The subtleties of it, there is a difference between the conversation of a mixed group of social equals no matter how vulgar verse a group of men bigging themselves up by calling a woman one of them has sex with a slut she is not their social equal, she is one woman and they are a group of men, they have made her an object.

It happens tough and I can't see it changing for a good while yet.
It's all to do with the environments people are in.
I know one woman for example and she's into the hashtag movement and how shocked she is what happened and the language used.
I know her some of the people she'd be friendly with and they'd all talk/act about the things she gives out about. They know tough not to do it around her.

erica74

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's a good job they are teaching consent in schools. When I was a youngster we all thought rape was fine.

Consent isn't just about rape. Like a few posters have pointed out, it's important to teach children that it's okay to not always want a hug or a kiss from everyone, including your granny. It's important to teach children that they can set their own boundaries and how to set them because they may not understand how to verbalise how they're feeling. Children may be afraid to upset their parents if they don't give everyone a hug and a kiss and it's important that they learn how to deal with these situations.

[Deleted User]

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It happens tough and I can't see it changing for a good while yet.
It's all to do with the environments people are in.
I know one woman for example and she's into the hashtag movement and how shocked she is what happened and the language used.
I know her some of the people she'd be friendly with and they'd all talk/act about the things she gives out about. They know tough not to do it around her.

A very good point, that is how change comes about by one person showing by their action that it's not acceptable.

freshpopcorn

mariaalice wrote: »

A very good point, that is how change comes about by one person showing by their action that it's not acceptable.

To be honest she's just being laughed at and people can't see her changing much by her posts. She wants talk of sexual acts and the acts themselves basically banned because as she says no woman would want them but it's not the vibe I'm getting off people.
She really lives in a bubble and thinks everybody agrees with her.

razorblunt

I'm just catching up on The Second Captains podcast with Richie Sadlier and Sinead O'Carroll.
It's very good, clear, calm and concise from all concerned.

freshpopcorn

The maths skills aren't great but would I be correct in saying if we just had two choices in the poll the you agreed with jury or didn't. Agree would work out between 74%-75% and disagree would work out as 25%-26%?

tretorn

You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

You cant change the behaviour of other people but you can change how you conduct yourself out socialising.

There is nothing whatsoever for women in one night stands, no love, no intimacy, no concern by men for the woman, its wham bang and then man falls into a snoring alcohol filled sleep. He wont even remember what the woman looked like the next day but if she decides that she didnt get the respect she deserved then she can make an allegation of rape and everyone will believe her because, why would she, yadda, yadda, yadda

[Deleted User]

mariaalice wrote: »

............

Now why four good-looking Succesful men felt the need to do that is another issue.

Harrison is a pig of a yoke, the other 3 are hardly good looking. If Jackson didn't play rugby he'd be going home with a take away after a night out.

Defunkd

kylith wrote: »

Unfortunately many parents are simply too embarrassed to get into the nitty gritty of sex education with their children.

A friend who is a secondary teacher had a chat with her ty students and no parent had warned of internet dangers, sending/asking for nudes, no mention of drugs, bullying. The only 'rules' were no to get drunk, not to get pregnant.

[Deleted User]

There is another point too.

The role of social promotion and sponsorship, why do nightclubs have VIP areas? because it's a social signal and will bring in more business and a nightclub is there to make money. How that interacts with the interior life self-belief of the VIP sports person who might be very young.

To make the most( money ) in the short life of a professional sportsperson in Irish society.

Don't do what they did.

Be a nice person.

Aquire a girlfriend who is a model or TV present socialise and get known in the media in a good way. Be the object of subtle aspiration.

Front a charity gets lots of kudos for that.

Then when it's all winding down they can both go off and marry who they want and both the sports person and model/TV presenter will have made a lot of money and have a career.

retro:electro

tretorn wrote: »

You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

You cant change the behaviour of other people but you can change how you conduct yourself out socialising.

There is nothing whatsoever for women in one night stands, no love, no intimacy, no concern by men for the woman, its wham bang and then man falls into a snoring alcohol filled sleep. He wont even remember what the woman looked like the next day but if she decides that she didnt get the respect she deserved then she can make an allegation of rape and everyone will believe her because, why would she, yadda, yadda, yadda

I think it matters not what clothes you’ve on you whether you’re going to be a victim of an attack or not. If a rapist is gonna rape I doubt he’d care what you had on. You’ll probably get torn to shreds for the revealing clothes comment, but I’d agree that you’re probably more likely to be a victim of a casual sexual assault like a boob grab or an arse pinch or an inappropriate fondle if you have it all out on display- but that’s still not the fault of the woman. It’s always the fault of the dirt who can’t keep his hands to himself. If a man sees a woman in revealing clothes and can’t help himself from hopping on her then that’s on him.

dirkmeister

It’s already taught in the Stay Safe programme that nobody has the right to see your privates apart from your parents or the doctor.

Children are also taught that it’s okay not to want a hug, kiss or to be touched by someone.

GreeBo

retro:electro wrote: »

I think it matters not what clothes you’ve on you whether you’re going to be a victim of an attack or not. If a rapist is gonna rape I doubt he’d care what you had on. You’ll probably get torn to shreds for the revealing clothes comment, but I’d agree that you’re probably more likely to be a victim of a casual sexual assault like a boob grab or an arse pinch or an inappropriate fondle if you have it all out on display- but that’s still not the fault of the woman. It’s always the fault of the dirt who can’t keep his hands to himself. If a man sees a woman in revealing clothes and can’t help himself from hopping on her then that’s on him.

If I was wandering around Barcelona half cut with my wallet hanging out of my arse pocket, how much sympathy do you think i'd get when it was stolen?

Appledreams15

tretorn wrote: »

You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

You cant change the behaviour of other people but you can change how you conduct yourself out socialising.

There is nothing whatsoever for women in one night stands, no love, no intimacy, no concern by men for the woman, its wham bang and then man falls into a snoring alcohol filled sleep. He wont even remember what the woman looked like the next day but if she decides that she didnt get the respect she deserved then she can make an allegation of rape and everyone will believe her because, why would she, yadda, yadda, yadda

And what would you say to the boys?

nullzero

retro:electro wrote: »

I think it matters not what clothes you’ve on you whether you’re going to be a victim of an attack or not. If a rapist is gonna rape I doubt he’d care what you had on. You’ll probably get torn to shreds for the revealing clothes comment, but I’d agree that you’re probably more likely to be a victim of a casual sexual assault like a boob grab or an arse pinch or an inappropriate fondle if you have it all out on display- but that’s still not the fault of the woman. It’s always the fault of the dirt who can’t keep his hands to himself. If a man sees a woman in revealing clothes and can’t help himself from hopping on her then that’s on him.

What I would take from that is that there are men who will have a grab or go further so perhaps revealing clothing isn't the safest thing to wear.

Also do women wear revealing clothing for their own comfort or to attract male attention?
Typically it's the latter, most men will look and not touch bit some men will take things too far.

There is no easy answers here, the morality seems straight forward at face value but becomes more nuanced on closer inspection.

Appledreams15

GreeBo wrote: »

If I was wandering around Barcelona half cut with my wallet hanging out of my arse pocket, how much sympathy do you think i'd get when it was stolen?

How is this even fathomable.

I've been on a beach with plenty of men who were half naked in shorts, some in tiny speedos.

Yet I managed to have the cop on not to go over and:
Massage their chest,
Feel their dick.

That is sexual assault.

Are you living in the real world?

erica74

tretorn wrote: »

You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

You cant change the behaviour of other people but you can change how you conduct yourself out socialising.

There is nothing whatsoever for women in one night stands, no love, no intimacy, no concern by men for the woman, its wham bang and then man falls into a snoring alcohol filled sleep. He wont even remember what the woman looked like the next day but if she decides that she didnt get the respect she deserved then she can make an allegation of rape and everyone will believe her because, why would she, yadda, yadda, yadda

Everyone loves a "wham bang" as you put it. Men aren't the only ones who enjoy a quick shag, not all women are looking for love in every partner they have sex with. However, there is intimacy in every sexual encounter. In my opinion, it is the very definition of intimacy.

In my opinion, what someone is wearing has absolutely no place in instructions to anyone on how to stay safe. Men who are raped aren't told "oh that shirt and jeans you were wearing was too revealing" because a rapist will rape because they want to rape.

munsterlegend

retro:electro wrote: »

I think it matters not what clothes you’ve on you whether you’re going to be a victim of an attack or not. If a rapist is gonna rape I doubt he’d care what you had on. You’ll probably get torn to shreds for the revealing clothes comment, but I’d agree that you’re probably more likely to be a victim of a casual sexual assault like a boob grab or an arse pinch or an inappropriate fondle if you have it all out on display- but that’s still not the fault of the woman. It’s always the fault of the dirt who can’t keep his hands to himself. If a man sees a woman in revealing clothes and can’t help himself from hopping on her then that’s on him.

I agree it's always the fault of the assailant with the sick mind. However all of us particularly women must take precautions like not getting isolated or walking alone on a night out. This also applies to not being too drunk to seek assistance if needed.

Everybody should be able to walk alone at any time of day or night but it's a far from perfect world we live in.

retro:electro

GreeBo wrote: »

If I was wandering around Barcelona half cut with my wallet hanging out of my arse pocket, how much sympathy do you think i'd get when it was stolen?

:rolleyes:

tretorn

Modesty is now a dirty word.

George Hook was torn to shreds for saying a lot less than I said but it is the truth.

Stop going out to get completely sozzled, if the night club scene is so bad it cant be endured without gallons of alcohol then maybe find some hobbies.

Dont go to bed with a man within five minutes of meeting him, all he is looking for from you is a quick shag, he is probably too drunk to even note what you look like and he doesnt care to find out anything about you. As soon as he has got what he wants he will want you to leave as quickly as possible and he will whatsapp his friends to say he was laid by a skanger.

The truth always hurt.

Appledreams15

erica74 wrote: »

Everyone loves a "wham bang" as you put it. Men aren't the only ones who enjoy a quick shag, not all women are looking for love in every partner they have sex with. However, there is intimacy in every sexual encounter. In my opinion, it is the very definition of intimacy.

Exactly. A man said to me once, 'a man is always going to want alot of sex with different people. They like the variety".

The way he said it to me was like he assumed I wouldnt understand!! I was thinking sure I feel exactly the same! Women like variety too. Human beings like variety.

Women and men are the same like this.

But there is a one night stand, and there is rape which is different

FrancieBrady

retro:electro wrote: »

I think it matters not what clothes you’ve on you whether you’re going to be a victim of an attack or not. If a rapist is gonna rape I doubt he’d care what you had on. You’ll probably get torn to shreds for the revealing clothes comment, but I’d agree that you’re probably more likely to be a victim of a casual sexual assault like a boob grab or an arse pinch or an inappropriate fondle if you have it all out on display- but that’s still not the fault of the woman. It’s always the fault of the dirt who can’t keep his hands to himself. If a man sees a woman in revealing clothes and can’t help himself from hopping on her then that’s on him.

Take away the emotive word 'rapist' and replace with 'guys, just as drunk as you who may get the wrong signal'.
The point is, just like the guys behaviour is wrong, so also is behaviour that puts you in danger'.

It's the teaching of common sense that is missing most imo.

martingriff

tretorn wrote: »

You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

You cant change the behaviour of other people but you can change how you conduct yourself out socialising.

There is nothing whatsoever for women in one night stands, no love, no intimacy, no concern by men for the woman, its wham bang and then man falls into a snoring alcohol filled sleep. He wont even remember what the woman looked like the next day but if she decides that she didnt get the respect she deserved then she can make an allegation of rape and everyone will believe her because, why would she, yadda, yadda, yadda

WTF are you talking about. What has women dressing got to do with it have we (all men) have no will power if we see a little flesh.

The law on drink and consent is a bit of a concern as it has nothing on men's lack of consent when drunk.

retro:electro

munsterlegend wrote: »

I agree it's always the fault of the assailant with the sick mind. However all of us particularly women must take precautions like not getting isolated or walking alone on a night out. This also applies to not being too drunk to seek assistance if needed.

Everybody should be able to walk alone at any time of day or night but it's a far from perfect world we live in.

Yep and I’d agree with you in regard to the personal safety aspect and not walking home alone. Avoiding risks where you’re more likely to be a victim of a crime should be a priority for men and women alike- but it shouldn’t be a priority for a woman to police what she wants to wear because some dope was never taught right from wrong and not to grab a feel.

Appledreams15

tretorn wrote: »

Modesty is now a dirty word.

George Hook was torn to shreds for saying a lot less than I said but it is the truth.

Stop going out to get completely sozzled, if the night club scene is so bad it cant be endured without gallons of alcohol then maybe find some hobbies.

Dont go to bed with a man within five minutes of meeting him, all he is looking for from you is a quick shag, he is probably too drunk to even note what you look like and he doesnt care to find out anything about you. As soon as he has got what he wants he will want you to leave as quickly as possible and he will whatsapp his friends to say he was laid by a skanger.

The truth always hurt.

You think women don't do this?
Women just want sex sometimes too!!!!

[Deleted User]

Appledreams15 wrote: »

You think women don't do this?
Women just want sex sometimes too!!!!

You must be robbed from buying batteries :pac:

Appledreams15

Augeo wrote: »

Harrison is a pig of a yoke, the other 3 are hardly good looking. If Jackson didn't play rugby he'd be going home with a take away after a night out.

Olding looks like a monkey (described by the woman as this)
Jackson is a short arse, looks 15, with hair like a wire scrubbing brush.
Harrison has a neck the size of his head.
Mingers

erica74

tretorn wrote: »

Modesty is now a dirty word.

George Hook was torn to shreds for saying a lot less than I said but it is the truth.

Stop going out to get completely sozzled, if the night club scene is so bad it cant be endured without gallons of alcohol then maybe find some hobbies.

Dont go to bed with a man within five minutes of meeting him, all he is looking for from you is a quick shag, he is probably too drunk to even note what you look like and he doesnt care to find out anything about you. As soon as he has got what he wants he will want you to leave as quickly as possible and he will whatsapp his friends to say he was laid by a skanger.

The truth always hurt.

Don't tar all men with the same brush. There are plenty of men who don't view women like something to use and dispose of, which is basically what your post suggests.
There are plenty of men and women who like to have lots of sex with multiple partners and most of us manage to do it without reducing our partners to the way you appear to view women.