Revving while moving off

It's more easy to overcome the root cause of your problem because even if there isn't a direct fault associated with it, it's not going to instill confidence in a tester. You can practice the two things I'll suggest with the car stopped. No harm in trying right?

The first thing is that usually it's not clutch control is the problem, it's throttle control. The clutch is quite compliant where the throttle revs wildly without too much input from you. The more gradually you try to make the motion, the more out-of-control the revs get. Sound familiar?

I suggest two things to you - first, when you think about applying the throttle, don't put the emphasis on your toes or the ball of your foot, put the emphasis on your foot rocking forward from your ankle. Rock your foot into the throttle emphasising your ankle motion instead of a toe-pointing motion.

Secondly, you need to get the timing of your feet right ('well, duh' I hear you say) but it takes a leap of faith. Most of us start driving believing that we need to rev up to precisely 1250 revs and then gently release the clutch, but this is simply impossible unless you're a robot or comouter (which you already know). What you can do is this; clutch in and shift into first. When you're ready to move off, you simply need to confidently 'blip' the throttle a touch so rev up and just a split second later, begin confidently releasing the clutch as the revs are still rising. Essentially, it's a one-two a half second apart. A semi-controlled rev-up followed almost straight away by a confident clutch release. Raise the revs but 'capture' them with the clutch before they get out of control.

It's a leap of faith- you throttle up having faith that the clutch release will absorb the revs before they get too high.

I hope that helps.

Rainislove wrote: »

Hi,
Do they mark engine reving while moving off? I am driving a toyota corolla 2007 petrol. Initially I had a stalling problem and I managed to come out of it but got into engine reving. If they going to note, what would be the grade?

Hi,
What exactly do you mean ?. To move off correctly, under full control, you should normally rev the engine. Not Vroom-Vroom type of rev but you should set the engine to a nice happy, healthy sound before engaging the clutch.

However if you mean you have trouble holding the accelerate pedal steady. To cure this, it may possible to hold the right side of your shoe against the side of the car, (Unfortunately due to the layout of the gas pedal on some cars, this is not always possible)

Sequence for moving off.
Rev the engine slightly.
Find the "Bite" or holding point. (Engine note changes, deepens)
(Do not use the rev counter, this is unnecessary, needlessly adds another layer of complexity)
HOLD all feet still.
Do your obs checks, (Mirrors, Blind Spot), if clear, indicate.
Release the handbrake, again hold your feet steady. Return habd to steering wheel.
Increase gas, let up clutch, slowly smoothly.
You're on your way.

Some driving instructors only teach their pupils how to move off in a diesel. They should teach them a universal method that works on all makes of cars and under all conditions

Dravokivich

Just a comment from my own experience. I failed twice prior to passing on third attempt and revving came up in both failures. First time was due to cutting the engine out 4/5 times because I was too easy on the revs when going off. Second time i was putting down a lot of revs. While it wasn't contributory to my failure the examiner did state it was rather excessive.

[Deleted User]

J_R wrote: »

Sequence for moving off.
Rev the engine slightly.
Find the "Bite" or holding point. (Engine note changes, deepens)
(Do not use the rev counter, this is unnecessary, needlessly adds another layer of complexity)
HOLD all feet still.
Do your obs checks, (Mirrors, Blind Spot), if clear, indicate.
Release the handbrake, again hold your feet steady. Return habd to steering wheel.
Increase gas, let up clutch, slowly smoothly.
You're on your way.

Some driving instructors only teach their pupils how to move off in a diesel. They should teach them a universal method that works on all makes of cars and under all conditions

I think this is whats happening to me.
I'm driving a while and its very frustrating when I cut out taking off(in petrol).
doesn't happen all the time, but it still happens at times.

I have just last week started lessons again with a new instructor because I want to see if there are different driving styles, or if my old instructor was lacking in any ways..

justfillmein wrote: »

I think this is whats happening to me.
I'm driving a while and its very frustrating when I cut out taking off(in petrol).
doesn't happen all the time, but it still happens at times.

I have just last week started lessons again with a new instructor because I want to see if there are different driving styles, or if my old instructor was lacking in any ways..

Hi

Yes, without any doubt whatsoever. every time you move off you MUST "set the gas". That is give it a wee bit of gas so that the engine is always happily singing

Make sure your new instructor teaches that you must give the car some power, and also how to control that power by teaching you clutch control.

[Deleted User]

thanks for that JR.

last week with new instructor was just an assessment to see where I am at.
so next week i'm going to ask him to start from basics again.

I had actually asked my previous instructor about the difference between petrol and diesel(after watching a video online) and he said I was doing fine.
obviously I was just winging it, and wasn't actually doing it right:mad:.

I have been getting the bite and THEN gas, in a petrol.
most of the time i've no problem, but there are times when I think I'll be fine, and then I cut out, and I don't know why. Its so frustrating.
I was afraid to do something I had seen on a video so I just stuck with what my instructor taught me.

hopefully next instructor works out better for me because I've already spent a bomb on lessons

justfillmein wrote: »

thanks for that JR.

last week with new instructor was just an assessment to see where I am at.
so next week i'm going to ask him to start from basics again.

I had actually asked my previous instructor about the difference between petrol and diesel(after watching a video online) and he said I was doing fine.
obviously I was just winging it, and wasn't actually doing it right:mad:.

I have been getting the bite and THEN gas, in a petrol.
most of the time i've no problem, but there are times when I think I'll be fine, and then I cut out, and I don't know why. Its so frustrating.
I was afraid to do something I had seen on a video so I just stuck with what my instructor taught me.

hopefully next instructor works out better for me because I've already spent a bomb on lessons

Hi,

You should set the power of the engine first, then you connect up that power. (Although a certain nation wide driving school must be teaching to find the bite first - at least I think so as I hear it again and again here. ).

This is very wrong. For a start it much much easier to find the bite if you rev first. (simply because the sound of the engine being louder can hear the bite sooner, easier and better)

Also by revving first, going by the sound, you can set the exact same amount of power each time. Letting up the clutch first, unless you can let it up by exact same distance each time you are going to get different levels of power for the same sound (or revs)

First way you will be consistent each and every time, 2nd hit and miss

J_R wrote: »

You should set the power of the engine first, then you connect up that power. (Although a certain nation wide driving school must be teaching to find the bite first - at least I think so as I hear it again and again here. )

I disagree with you.

I think it's way quicker and easier as a novice to learn to accurately and repeatably find the biting point than it is to accurately rev up to the desired RPM range without revving uncontrollablt. I would agree that driving school if that's what they teach. The rev counter will slightly drop when you're at the biting point with no throttle. There is a very certain biting point. Your method requires controlling an infinitely variable clutch motion with an infinitely variable throttle motion.

When you ride bikes, you quickly learn that throttle control is far more tricky to master than clutch control. It's no different in cars. I suggested to the OP that finding the biting point, followed by a decisive throttle input followed by a decisive clutch pedal release is the most productive approach.

cantdecide wrote: »

I disagree with you.

I think it's way quicker and easier as a novice to learn to accurately and repeatably find the biting point than it is to accurately rev up to the desired RPM range without revving uncontrollablt. I would agree that driving school if that's what they teach. The rev counter will slightly drop when you're at the biting point with no throttle. There is a very certain biting point. Your method requires controlling an infinitely variable clutch motion with an infinitely variable throttle motion.

When you ride bikes, you quickly learn that throttle control is far more tricky to master than clutch control. It's no different in cars. I suggested to the OP that finding the biting point, followed by a decisive throttle input followed by a decisive clutch pedal release is the most productive approach.

Hi,

Nope, it is much much easier quicker to rev the engine first, listen for that "Happy" sound. (sometimes I might ask my pupil if they sang, played music instrument, if so to assign a musical note to that sound). They then need only release the clutch slowly listening for the note change. At that point stop all leg movements, do obs, release handbrake.

I actively discouraged using the rev counter. For a start when I commenced giving driving lessons my driving school car was fitted with a rev counter but there was a very strong possibility that the car the pupil would be driving would not be so fitted. (Only the top car marques had rev counters way back then),

But the other more important reason, having a novice driver taking their eyes off their surroundings cause a needless potential hazard. I have watched learners staring down at the counter, watching the needle swing, attempting to lock it on some arbitrary number given to them by their previous instructor. This can take long long seconds. And it is all so unnecessary

I once had a pupil turn up for her first lesson. She was still very shaken up. She told me as she was moving off from traffic lights she almost ran down a woman . She kept saying "She appeared from nowhere". Explained to her about the blind spot caused by the front pillars. But then after I watched her move off on the lesson, I added, and taking your eyes off the road when setting the gas. Told her in future, forget the rev counter, keep your eyes on the road and the pedestrians.

Finding the bite can be a real delicate operation when the engine is operating at its absolute bare minimum power - that is, with no gas, the engine simply idling.

Set the power first, so that you have something decent to play with, plenty room for error. The car is far more forgiving when it is happily singing.

driving instructors should teach their pupils to rev, not be afraid of revving. And of course to be confident and comfortable in controlling that power.

To clarify, a raw beginner in controlled practicing conditions can use the rev clock as a means of practicing finding the biting point - this is one of the most learnable parameters. Muscle memory kicks in very quickly regarding the biting point and no driver should be gazing at the rev counter.

Your method is the mainstream method - it's the one that I was shown and the one that confounded me and everyone else. It's premised on having the time to concentrate on carefully select the right revs before gently releasing the clutch. I think my method capitalises on muscle memory. I taught an ex girlfriend to drive using my method and in the same day, the stalling, revving and stressing stopped and decisive, head-up moving off was all she was doing. Her official instructor remarked at how quickly she'd gotten the hang of moving off - because she ignored what he was telling her.

It looks like we'll have to agree to differ but I can only say you (or any reader) can try it at any time. Bite, blip and release decisively. No careful consideration or surgical control inputs using all your senses are necessary.

cantdecide wrote: »

To clarify, a raw beginner in controlled practicing conditions can use the rev clock as a means of practicing finding the biting point - this is one of the most learnable parameters. Muscle memory kicks in very quickly regarding the biting point and no driver should be gazing at the rev counter.

Your method is the mainstream method - it's the one that I was shown and the one that confounded me and everyone else. It's premised on having the time to concentrate on carefully select the right revs before gently releasing the clutch. I think my method capitalises on muscle memory. I taught an ex girlfriend to drive using my method and in the same day, the stalling, revving and stressing stopped and decisive, head-up moving off was all she was doing. Her official instructor remarked at how quickly she'd gotten the hang of moving off - because she ignored what he was telling her.

It looks like we'll have to agree to differ but I can only say you (or any reader) can try it at any time. Bite, blip and release decisively. No careful consideration or surgical control inputs using all your senses are necessary.

Hi,

Different methods for different folks. Ask yourself why is my method the mainstream method. ? (Except perhaps here in Ireland where quite a few instructors appear to teach - No Gas)

When a good instructor sees one method is not working, he changes to an alternative

But I found my method by far the best. My pupils seldom if ever stalled. They all thought they were natural born drivers.

Alkers

Can you go to a large carpark at a quiet time and spend half an hour going over getting the car moving in first with no accelerator, stopping and repeating? Works very well for getting the feel of the clutch. Once you have the feel of one of the pedals, it is easier to pick up the other as you're not trying to concentrate on two things at once

I don't see why they don't have a bit of road with a few inclines on it, that people can drive up and down doing about an hour of hill starts.

The problem with with learning to use the clutch there its not intensive enough in a normal lesson. You don't do enough starts to learn the muscle memory and get used to it. Also hearing what is the correct engine note should be. Which is learnt though habit.

I think once people have done a load of hill starts in a safe environment, they lose their fear of it.

Its just tricky in a car with small petrol engine. Which is most learner cars.

beauf wrote: »

Its just tricky in a car with small petrol engine. Which is most learner cars.

Fly by wire throttles are sometimes a disaster - I'm driving nearly 20 years and in my car (a 1.4 petrol) the throttle is a little bit like a light switch sometimes. I'll struggle to hold the RPMs at a certain point. Other cars are more forgiving.

beauf wrote: »

I don't see why they don't have a bit of road with a few inclines on it, that people can drive up and down doing about an hour of hill starts.

The problem with with learning to use the clutch there its not intensive enough in a normal lesson. You don't do enough starts to learn the muscle memory and get used to it. Also hearing what is the correct engine note should be. Which is learnt though habit.

I think once people have done a load of hill starts in a safe environment, they lose their fear of it.

Its just tricky in a car with small petrol engine. Which is most learner cars.

Hi,

My very first and last school cars were small petrols. All the other cars in between those two were diesels. (My second last car was a 140 BHP diesel)

I used the exact same method of teaching moving off, hill starts etc in all the cars. No difference whatsoever.

If a learner has been taught properly how to move off, (and clutch control) they will have no fear whatsoever in doing a hill start. Instructor simply has to warn them that they are now asking the car to work harder, therefore they must give the old engine more power, let the clutch bite a little deeper. That's it. Talk through once or twice. then perhaps a prompt. Hill start done and dusted. Go hme and practice.

beauf wrote: »

I don't see why they don't have a bit of road with a few inclines on it, that people can drive up and down doing about an hour of hill starts.

The problem with with learning to use the clutch there its not intensive enough in a normal lesson. You don't do enough starts to learn the muscle memory and get used to it. Also hearing what is the correct engine note should be. Which is learnt though habit.

I think once people have done a load of hill starts in a safe environment, they lose their fear of it.

Its just tricky in a car with small petrol engine. Which is most learner cars.

Hi,

My nursery route, where I took my rank new beginners was a nice wide quiet road. It had two or three hundred metres of a straight flat road where I taught moving off and stopping.
By the time we got to the end of the straight stretch they had mastered moving off. Just practice needed so that it became automatic.

Around the bend there was about two hundred metres of a nice incline where I taught them clutch control.

Then either we went on a drive on quiet country road or we did steering around a block in a small industrial estate. All in the hour.

I did get the very odd exception when I had to take them back to the nursery route a second time.

cantdecide wrote: »

Fly by wire throttles are sometimes a disaster - I'm driving nearly 20 years and in my car (a 1.4 petrol) the throttle is a little bit like a light switch sometimes. I'll struggle to hold the RPMs at a certain point. Other cars are more forgiving.

I've noticed that in light turbo diesels as well. Some can pull off with no throttle like a old NA Diesel of old, (1.3CTDI) others are a tightrope. We have a 1.6 CTDi in the extended family and its very tiresome in stop start traffic, urban etc. As you say its probably the throttle. I hop into an older petrol NA 1.6 and the usability is night and day better.

GarIT

J_R wrote: »

Rev the engine slightly.
Find the "Bite" or holding point.
HOLD all feet still.
Do your obs checks
Release the handbrake

With the time it takes new drivers to do obs checks would this not destroy the clutch?

I check if it’s safe to move off and then press the accelerator gently, release the clutch and release the handbreak all at the same time.

J_R wrote: »

H...My very first and last school cars were small petrols. All the other cars in between those two were diesels. (My second last car was a 140 BHP diesel)

I used the exact same method of teaching moving off, hill starts etc in all the cars. No difference whatsoever......

Maybe its how you explain yourself, but your comments are usually not impossible but unlikely. They are weird mix of good advice and illogical anecdotes.

Even if you had some magical technique that makes cars with radically different characteristics all the same to a learner. That almost all your learners need only one session to get this (mastered it), I just don't find credible. This would be difficult in any sphere of learning. Not just driving. Most experts will usually qualify their experience with the acceptance that quite often things don't go to plan. People are different and some take a lot longer than others.

I don't have an issue with giving it gas, but where learners are telling you they are over doing it, suggests they are unable to feel or hear the difference. For example some people can't hear it, maybe they don't have a musical ear, or its not trained, or they have a hearing issue. In which case they need something else to know how much as is reasonable and how much is not. If they are falling down on that specific issue.

If they were tuning a guitar they would use a tuner, until through practice they learnt it.

GarIT wrote: »

With the time it takes new drivers to do obs checks would this not destroy the clutch?....

That's usually given as a reason not to use this technique. But I'd say you have to expect premature wear in a learner car. The difference in wear between over revving and stalling is probably not significant. If someone got into the habit of over revving, is a probably more likely and they would probably end up being hard on clutches their entire driving life. Its probably masked by driving engines with a lot of torque, high capacity diesels as are popular now.

My driving test brought me up Christchurch hill which used to go up instead of down, with lights at the top. So you basically had to queue in a constant hill start to creep forward until a couple of changes of lights you got through at the top. Nice route in peak Dublin traffic.

Then again many cars have electronic hand brakes which make it a bit easier. I assume. Never driven one much.

Galbin

Yes, absolutely. I never rev my engine, but I did it on my hill start in order to show that there was no danger of me ever stalling. The tester gave me marks for that. I was so annoyed as I did it on purpose thinking he would like it!

hasdanta

Galbin wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. I never rev my engine, but I did it on my hill start in order to show that there was no danger of me ever stalling. The tester gave me marks for that. I was so annoyed as I did it on purpose thinking he would like it!

Or you could just show the tester that there's no danger of you stalling on the hill start by successfully taking off without having to rev like mad..

beauf wrote: »

Maybe its how you explain yourself, but your comments are usually not impossible but unlikely. They are weird mix of good advice and illogical anecdotes.

Even if you had some magical technique that makes cars with radically different characteristics all the same to a learner. That almost all your learners need only one session to get this (mastered it), I just don't find credible. This would be difficult in any sphere of learning. Not just driving. Most experts will usually qualify their experience with the acceptance that quite often things don't go to plan. People are different and some take a lot longer than others.

I don't have an issue with giving it gas, but where learners are telling you they are over doing it, suggests they are unable to feel or hear the difference. For example some people can't hear it, maybe they don't have a musical ear, or its not trained, or they have a hearing issue. In which case they need something else to know how much as is reasonable and how much is not. If they are falling down on that specific issue.

If they were tuning a guitar they would use a tuner, until through practice they learnt it.

Hi,

You are correct. My bad, last car had rear wheel drive so hill starts slightly different procedure. However everything else exactly the same. Exact same procedure applies to all manual cars. An engine is an engine, irrespective what fuel it runs on and all controlled by the same method, a pedal on the floor. All that is necessary is to ensure that it is generating sufficient power to easily move the dead-weight of the car.

That power is transferred to the wheels by the exact same method - the clutch. And all my cars had nice smooth clutches, so no difference between petrol or diesel.

Yes, I had a magical technique, I broke everything down into very basic, logical, simple steps, and I explained fully the reason behind each step. For moving off, five steps in all, So do you really believe it is impossible for someone to learn, and perform, five simple sequential steps in ten, fifteen minutes ?

At the end of the lesson I gave my pupil notes on what we had just covered. They could then refresh their memory whilst they practised perfecting the techniques they had learnt in the lesson.

You make it sound like you've very little experience. Maybe that's not true and you're a genus instructor. But that's not how your comments read. Too many inconsistencies.

beauf wrote: »

You make it sound like you've very little experience. Maybe that's not true and you're a genus instructor. But that's not how your comments read. Too many inconsistencies.

Hi,

In fifteen years as an instructor I had somewhere around three thousand five hundred pupils pass their driving test. Forget exactly, to comply with data protection I deleted all my pupil records when I retired. Too late realised that I need only have deleted their personal details from the spreadsheets.

Have a look at Pupils and other years.

I had a genuine pass rate in the high ninetys. The only massaging I did on those figures, I did not count any new pupil who only came to me the day before the test, only if they passed.

Goodbye

My issue is you dismiss the difference between a car that's easy to stall and one that isn't. In the context of a learner over revving. Making a sweeping generalisation about diesel is jarring.

Someone over revving is missing all the normal cues. Someone who is having that problem needs extra help perhaps with learning the biting point of the clutch.

J_R wrote: »

Different methods for different folks. ....When a good instructor sees one method is not working, he changes to an alternative...

You seem to be saying the opposite that there is only one way of doing this.

I'm don't have a problem with give it a little throttle technique or if is the most successful one. Because that's how to drive normally.

Just if someone is having trouble with it. They need more practice starting and hill starts than other learners. perhaps with practice stalling.

beauf wrote: »

My issue is you dismiss the difference between a car that's easy to stall and one that isn't. In the context of a learner over revving. Making a sweeping generalisation about diesel is jarring.

Someone over revving is missing all the normal cues. Someone who is having that problem needs extra help perhaps with learning the biting point of the clutch.

Hi,

where did I ever mention over revving. I always used the expression happy.

A petrol car that is revved to a happy sound is no more likely to stall than a diesel. So, in reality there is no difference. And I taught my pupils accordingly.

The only difference between a diesel and a petrol engine is that a diesel generates more power/torque at lower revs than a petrol. Rev the petrol engine and the power/torque are the same. Same characteristics in regards moving off anyway

And some refined diesels are fairly easy to stall, old rough Corsa engines almost impossible.

Re, ,my postings, I spent many years working/sending/receiving telegrams so am inclined not to use superfluous words.