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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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The Talking Bread

I didn't even think I would have to send a link to the pretty clear cut legislation which spells it out clearly that bconsent is impossible if you are asleep.................. surely, surely I shouldn't have to do this to 2 men (I am also a sexually active young man) on here boasting about their great very active sex lives!

Is this a wierd Aprils fools joke?

irishrebe

Faugheen wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

One of them isn't consenting if they're asleep though.

What part of this do you not understand?

You want to 'wake somebody up pleasurably' you need consent the night before.

Ok, got you.:rolleyes:

So you think you can do whatever you want to a person when they're asleep, because they're not in a position to say no until they wake up?

You keep promoting sexual assault and rape if that's the case, then.

As I said pages ago, a worrying number of people in Ireland do not seem to understand what rape and assault actually are.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Because that would be admission of a sexual assault. Nobody gives a flying fck what your 'intention' was. And people wonder why we need sexual consent classes?

It becomes an 'assault' only if the person doesn't want it.

And the poster clearly said they had no problem with it. But the third party insisted and is still insisting it was a 'sexual assault' regardless.

When does the woman give you consent when she's asleep, then?

If you've no consent, you're committing sexual assault.

Faugheen

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I didn't even think I would have to send a link to the pretty clear cut legislation which spells it out clearly that bconsent is impossible if you are asleep.................. surely, surely I shouldn't have to do this to 2 men (I am also a sexually active young man) on here boasting about their great very active sex lives!

Is this a wierd Aprils fools joke?

Legislation won't matter because it doesn't fit into their narrative.

I'm happy to keep letting them dig holes for themselves to be honest.

The Talking Bread

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It becomes an 'assault' only if the person doesn't want it.

.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

You are actually serious!! Whether she took pleasure waking up to find it happening to her or not and obviously won't go to the police about it has absolutely no bearing on it!! It is a crime!

Christ, above!

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

When does the woman give you consent when she's asleep, then?

If you've no consent, you're committing sexual assault.

You are just highlighting the absurdity of third parties deciding these issues.
It is between two consenting adults.
If one feels they have been assaulted (which the poster has said again and again that they didn't) then by all means take a case for assault.

[Deleted User]

Faugheen wrote: »

If you do, you would get done for sexual assault. That is a fact.

When most people here are questioning your logic, they're doing it from the point of view that they'd be doing it to people who would never accuse them of assault, and where consent is a given.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a grey area that you are trying to make black and white. In my relationship, consent is there until it's taken away, especially since we've been together for seven years and nothing wayward has ever happened in that regard.

Our sexual lives don't actually lead us into this "sleep sex" territory, but consent is implied. In the past month, we've had drunk sex with each other way beyond what would ever be acceptable with a stranger in terms of alcohol levels, but it's fine because we trust each other.

If you're really as single-minded about this topic as you appear, she sexually assaulted me only two nights ago, and I sexually assaulted her last Saturday after her friend's birthday. It's an incredibly narrow view to have of relationships.

irishrebe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Because that would be admission of a sexual assault. Nobody gives a flying fck what your 'intention' was. And people wonder why we need sexual consent classes?

It becomes an 'assault' only if the person doesn't want it.

And the poster clearly said they had no problem with it. But the third party insisted and is still insisting it was a 'sexual assault' regardless.

If she is upset enough to go to the Gardai and report it, I think it's safe to say she didn't want it. Your defense of 'but I thought it was OK because a woman did it to me once and I didn't mind' is not going to stand up in court. You'd have a very good chance of being convicted of a sexual assault and getting a criminal record. I'm not sure why this is not sinking in.

Mrsmum

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You want to 'wake somebody up pleasurably' you need consent the night before.

Ok, got you.:rolleyes:

Ah now come on Francie, the truth is you wake up yourself feeling horny and you're hoping she might be in to it too.

RuMan

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I didn't even think I would have to send a link to the pretty clear cut legislation which spells it out clearly that bconsent is impossible if you are asleep.................. surely, surely I shouldn't have to do this to 2 men (I am also a sexually active young man) on here boasting about their great very active sex lives!

Is this a wierd Aprils fools joke?

Nobody is boasting , people are just pointing out reality. This debate has been hijacked by extremists attempting to impose their prudish and more importantly entirely unrealistic ideas about consent on normal people.

FrancieBrady

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ah now come on Francie, the truth is you wake up yourself feeling horny and you're hoping she might be in to it too.

So if I initiate something I might find myself in court for assault???

Lordy. I'm off to watch the rugby.

manonboard

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You simply cannot "take back" consent, as it makes a mockery of the concept of consent, and introduced the idea of "rape in retrospect", the idea that someone could decide after the fact that they were raped.

Hi One Eyed Jack,

Would you mind elaborating on the point above regards not being able to take back consent. I want to see if i understood you correctly.
I enjoyed the rest of your well spoken post.

The Talking Bread

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are just highlighting the absurdity of third parties deciding these issues.
It is between two consenting adults.
If one feels they have been assaulted (which the poster has said again and again that they didn't) then by all means take a case for assault.

But one is not legally consenting. That is the point. It is impossible, legally, to give consent if you aren't awake. What part of that do you not understand.

A private fetish maybe that both parties are complicit to, whether through pre agreement (not legal consent) or just going on a hunch that sh will enjoy it but it is illegal in law. Whether or not the other party wants to make a complaint about it or not doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

You are asleep...................therefore no consent.

defrule

I think some of us should get together and do some practical research on consent. It may turn out educational!

[Deleted User]

The Talking Bread wrote: »

But one is not legally consenting. That is the point. It is impossible, legally, to give consent if you aren't awake. What part of that do you not understand.

Do you think it's ever possible for consent to be the default in a relationship?

I'm not talking about some marital rape thing here where it should be the default.. I'm just asking if you think it's possible for two people to be together and for consent to be a given?

I've been in two relationships that have gotten to that point, one implicitly through sheer time spend together, and another who told me I could wake her up however I wanted, whenever I wanted. Both of those were default "It's fine till it's not fine." situations.

irishrebe

You know what's funny? Not one man I know in real life has expressed the hysterical opinion that they're afraid to ever interact with a woman ever again in case they're accused of something, or any of the other rubbish people on here are coming out with. It seems to me that if you're the type of person who thinks having sex with someone who is asleep (including someone who you do not know well) is not sexual assault or that the obvious thing to anticipate of a drunk horny man is that he's about to rape someone, then yes, you should be worried. Business as normal for everyone else.

manonboard

The Talking Bread wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

You are actually serious!! Whether she took pleasure waking up to find it happening to her or not and obviously won't go to the police about it has absolutely no bearing on it!! It is a crime!

Christ, above!

That seems to conflict with common reasoning in a relationship.
In relationships, people tend to think of differences of opinions in acts like that as "bad timing" or "I appreciate the attempt, but i'm not in the mood".

By calling it a crime, you are labeling it outside the scope of the spirit of the 'crime'. There are long term implied consent dynamics in relationships. These give way to more open territory of exploring fundamentally 'precarious' terrority regards sexual relations, because of the trust involved.

If i tell my partner not to perform oral sex on me when im asleep, if they do, that may be a crime.

If i dont tell my partner, It's not a crime, and its different than the case of "So i have to say no" because of several factors:
1: We have implied consent to explore sexual dynamics with each other.
2: There is trust involved that you will pay attention to my needs and adjust based on them.
3: There is a level expectation of skill present allows you to do a fairly good job reading my desires/pleasures even if i am unaware of some of them some times.
4: None of us have a manual to follow, there will be mistakes, we are trying our best to keep life spicey, new, interesting, safe, pleasurable.

If i wake up and my partner is sexually enjoying me, and giving me pleasure. It's not a crime because I am ok with it. I enjoy it. I consent the moment i become aware of it, and their behavior is within the confines our established accepted (through time) dynamics.

Mrsmum

manonboard wrote: »

Hi One Eyed Jack,

Would you mind elaborating on the point above regards not being able to take back consent. I want to see if i understood you correctly.
I enjoyed the rest of your well spoken post.

By taking back consent, I mean being entitled to stay enough at any point. After all someone could be an awful lover, too rough, too longwinded, too boring, too whatever.

irishrebe

Deleted User wrote: »

The Talking Bread wrote: »

But one is not legally consenting. That is the point. It is impossible, legally, to give consent if you aren't awake. What part of that do you not understand.

Do you think it's ever possible for consent to be the default in a relationship?

I'm not talking about some marital rape thing here where it should be the default.. I'm just asking if you think it's possible for two people to be together and for consent to be a given?

I've been in two relationships that have gotten to that point, one implicitly through sheer time spend together, and another who told me I could wake her up however I wanted, whenever I wanted. Both of those were default "It's fine till it's not fine." situations.

Yes, and that could stand up in court if for some reason one partner decided to report the other to the Gardai. Good luck to those who think they can wake up a one night stand by raping them while they are asleep and not face any legal consequences.

manonboard

Faugheen wrote: »

When does the woman give you consent when she's asleep, then?

If you've no consent, you're committing sexual assault.

That seems to assume like it was not already present from previously established dynamics. I think you are viewing these things in very narrow thin slices of time and context.

By the same logic, how small of a consent window applies in your view? When is consent still valid and when does it expire?
(I hope you don't feel i am attacking you, I just think there is a hole in the applicable logic that lacks context)

The Talking Bread

RuMan wrote: »

Unless the wife files a complaint i'm probably sorted !
U seem naive at least in regard to sexual matters. Sexual attraction is not rational and cannot be managed through some sort of legal contract and thank god for that i say

I am not in anyway naive, I am a young guy, been to college, been in two longish term relationships, a few less serious, single at the minute, large band of friends, out every weekend, date regularly, do the whole tinder thing sometimes, have had plenty of sexual partners, discuss sex with my mates and have a laugh with sexual innuendo chatting up girls on a night out.
I am not in anyway naive!

But I know the difference between consent and not consent in legal terms.

kylith

manonboard wrote: »

Hi One Eyed Jack,

Would you mind elaborating on the point above regards not being able to take back consent. I want to see if i understood you correctly.
I enjoyed the rest of your well spoken post.

I would also like this explained further.

Galwayguy35

This whole thing is turning into a bit of a witch hunt especially in papers like The Irish Times.

People giving out that the men's barristers spent so long questioning her, these lads were on trial where their freedom could have been taken away so the barristers job is to defend his/her client and highlight parts of the complainants story that didn't add up and it wasn't hard to do in this particular case.

I've seen posts where people said there should have been an all woman jury to make sure they went to prison and they've been called rapists even after the not guilty verdict.

The fact is none of us know what went on in that room only the people there but the decision of the jury must be respected.

[Deleted User]

irishrebe wrote: »

Yes, and that could stand up in court if for some reason one partner decided to report the other to the Gardai. Good luck to those who think they can wake up a one night stand by raping them while they are asleep and not face any legal consequences.

That we can agree on.. I think anyone who does that is foolish at best and is actually assaulting someone at worst. A woman or man may want something at night in the heat of the moment but it doesn't carry carry over to the next day.

My posts here are purely from the point of view of my current situation because I'm reading some extreme opinions here that definitely don't apply to serious relationships, but posters are claiming they do.

jackboy

This thread indicates that consent cannot be taught as it is a grey area. Trying to teach consent is dangerous as the teacher will never have more than a rough idea as to what consent is.

The only safe things to teach are do not have sex outside a relationship and have good communication and respect within relationships.

Appledreams15

Everyone knows that rape and sexual assault is a massive problem throughout the world right?

Governments are only beginning to get a tackle on it now.

Isn't it a very animalistic world where the physically stronger overpower and rape the physically weaker? You know it goes on in so many countries. The facts and statistics are there.

It's a nightmare of a world. Why do you want women to live in a world like this.

Imagine we could travel around space and we stumbled across a planet. You saw that there were millions of men and women on the planet.
You looked closer and saw that men were raping, gang raping,abusing and hitting the women on that planet, and displaying women in porn in violent and degrading situations for their own amusement, you saw that men took over most countries governements, so that women had no way to charge their rapists, you saw that women were committing suicide due to it.

What would you describe it as? I would describe it as hell.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishrebe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Despite all of your hyperbole in describing some kind of dystopian nightmare, the world has never been a safer or better place for women than it is right now. In particular, the prevalence of rape and sexual assault has declined markedly over the past 30 years. Your representation is completely at odds with the facts.[/quote]
That's grand so. We got the vote so we should just shut up? I agree that post is hyperbole but it's also pretty dangerous to say it's never been better, as if there's not still an enormous way to go.

The Talking Bread

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think it's ever possible for consent to be the default in a relationship?

I'm not talking about some marital rape thing here where it should be the default.. I'm just asking if you think it's possible for two people to be together and for consent to be a given?

I've been in two relationships that have gotten to that point, one implicitly through sheer time spend together, and another who told me I could wake her up however I wanted, whenever I wanted. Both of those were default "It's fine till it's not fine." situations.

You are completely twisting the point here.

Simply put. It is LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE (ENTIRELY) to give consent, implied, by default, through marital or relationship status or knowledge that they will enjoy it (from previous encounters) if you are asleep.

It is written in black and white in law,

Noone is saying it doesn't happen but it is illegal. Obviously if both are complicit to it, that is their sexual relationship. There are a lot of mutual sexual fetishes that can be deemed illegal if you delve into it but that doesn't take away from the potential criminal liability of such an act

The Talking Bread

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Isn't it a very animalistic world where the physically stronger overpower and rape the physically weaker? You know it goes on in so many countries. The facts and statistics are there.

It's a nightmare of a world. Why do you want women to live in a world like this.

What would you describe it as? I would describe it as hell.

Christ.