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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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Nermal

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Sorry meant 1.8 %, so do you think that is an acceptable conviction rate for rape cases that make it to court ? and effective for law and order ?

Given the nature of the evidence usually available, yes. It's not surprising and is 'acceptable', whatever that means in this context.

You seem to think allegation to conviction % is some sort of KPI for the court system, an idea totally at odds with the principles it operates on.

Bob_Marley

hynesie08 wrote: »

"In 2016, 396 cases of alleged rape were passed over to the PPS by police.

That same year, 68 of those cases were prosecuted out of which 29 defendants were convicted."

So a real conviction rate of 42% give or take.....

Well I was told earlier the 15 out of 825 figures were true when I question the poster that claimed them, so take it up with them.

Bob_Marley

Nermal wrote: »

Given the nature of the evidence usually available, yes. It's not surprising and is 'acceptable', whatever that means in this context.

You seem to think allegation to conviction % is some sort of KPI for the court system, an idea totally at odds with the principles it operates on.

If that's true, then effectively there is no real deterrent to raping anyone, it's game on for rapists. That might be acceptable to you, but not to me.

Carlos Orange

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Sorry meant 1.8 %, so do you think that is an acceptable conviction rate for rape cases that make it to court ? and effective for law and order ?

The conviction rate for rape prosecutions in Northern Ireland is 43% not 1.8%.

Nermal

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well I was told earlier the 15 out of 825 figures were true when I question the poster that claimed them, so take it up with them.

Sure that's the standard of evidence you'd probably have us accept in court, isn't it?

hynesie08

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

It actually happens a lot more than you think at house parties, you're looking for your friend to bail, you hear a noise, open a door before your brain puts 2 and 2 together. Wrong door for a bathroom etc. I know I've done it and so have many others.

Silentcorner

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well I was told earlier the 15 out of 825 figures were true when I question the poster that claimed them, so take it up with them.

Here is my source...

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/823-alleged-rapes-reported-northern-14477973

Fann Linn

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

I worked on a ship and we were docked in Newcastle and I had to hop over a couple who were going hammer and tongs before I could get up the gangway.
No accounting for demon drink.

Stheno

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

She never said they were friends the complainant did not know any of the other three women who went back to the house

TOMs WIFE

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Tell us worried father, if it happened to your young daughter, and she was used in a drunken threesome by professional rugby players, and that night caused her extreme distress, and the lads involved all boasted about what they did to her, and she is put on trial in that court where her bloody underwear was passed around, and your daughter failed to prove consent was withheld beyond reasonable doubt, and therefore they were declared not guilty of rape . . How would you feel ?

Tell us, if it happened to your young son, and he took part in what he thought was a consensual threesome, and found out next day that she was accusing him of rape, and he spent 2 years waiting for his court case, and despite a jury of his peers finding no proof that he did anything wrong, and was therefore innocent, he remains guilty according to the kangaroo court of social media, and has his life destroyed...How would you feel.

Bob_Marley

Nermal wrote: »

Sure that's the standard of evidence you'd probably have us accept in court, isn't it?

This isn't a court last time I checked.

freshpopcorn

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

All people are different to be honest.

Silentcorner

TOMs WIFE wrote: »

Tell us, if it happened to your young son, and he took part in what he thought was a consensual threesome, and found out next day that she was accusing him of rape, and he spent 2 years waiting for his court case, and despite a jury of his peers finding no proof that he did anything wrong, and was therefore innocent, he remains guilty according to the kangaroo court of social media, and has his life destroyed...How would you feel.

Accusations of false rape claims are abhorrent and damaging, who wouldn't be horrified at the thought of it....

Though, it is far more likely that your daughter would get raped by someone she knew....and that rapist would most likely not get convicted...which of course would make him an innocent man....

Bob_Marley

Worried Father wrote: »

Except people get done for a rape all the time.

Not according to the stats they don't, there's very little risk of ever being convicted.

Silentcorner wrote: »

Here is my source...

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/823-alleged-rapes-reported-northern-14477973

Ulysses Gaze

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Not according to the stats they don't, there's very little risk of ever being convicted.

Those stats are for the North of Ireland. Not the Republic.

A different jurisdiction that runs its cases differently.

Pac1Man

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The grand deformation of men by some of those on this thread and in the 'protests' will have some repercussions by men being thrown into the one bracket. Similarly, if you push too far left the right will come back hard. That's the reality people will have to face when they partake in a crusade.

Don't be surprised if you find more men delighted at the result of this case and defensive of future similar cases due to the unintelligent and illogical slandering.

The aftermath of this case from people protesting against due process to the Twitter and Boards outbursts has left me giving much less of a fuk about the plights of women than before, which is a shame.

Mrsmum

Worried Father wrote: »

If I can't be proven it can't be proven and the perp is free to go. It's the only way it can be.

You just seem so sanguine about the fact that many many rapists are getting away with it. Perhaps if you were in the demographic of young women most likely to be raped and see their attacker go free, you would be a bit more outraged and might even be minded to go on a protest march.

givyjoe

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

Well maybe she thought bit was her friend who had been Ill, so was therefore concerned/unsure of why she was hearing her sick friend moaning with pleasure. Seriously, you doubt the only witness independent to the alleged rape.. do you have the same doubts on the alleged victims story?

iamwhoiam

Pac1Man wrote: »

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The grand deformation of men by some of those on this thread and in the 'protests' will have some repercussions by men being thrown into the one bracket. Similarly, if you push too far left the right will come back hard. That's the reality people will have to face when they partake in a crusade.

Don't be surprised if you find more men delighted at the result of this case and defensive of future similar cases due to the unintelligent and illogical slandering.

The aftermath of this case from people protesting against due process to the Twitter and Boards outbursts has left me giving much less of a fuk about the plights of women than before, which is a shame.

How you feel about the plight of women or the plights of men is entirely down to you . Then surely how you feel is your responsibility and not down to others ?

Bob_Marley

TOMs WIFE wrote: »

Tell us, if it happened to your young son, and he took part in what he thought was a consensual threesome, and found out next day that she was accusing him of rape, and he spent 2 years waiting for his court case, and despite a jury of his peers finding no proof that he did anything wrong, and was therefore innocent, he remains guilty according to the kangaroo court of social media, and has his life destroyed...How would you feel.

I've already said these peoples lives were not ruined by the trial, but by unsocial media, and that peoples identities should not be revealed in such a trial.

If I had a 26 year old son who was supposed to be professional rugby player, but was heavily binge drinking and having threesome sex with a vulnerable and very drunk teenage girl and other rugby players, I'd be having a long hard discussion with him why he's total idiot.

drillyeye

Pac1Man wrote: »

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The grand deformation of men by some of those on this thread and in the 'protests' will have some repercussions by men being thrown into the one bracket. Similarly, if you push too far left the right will come back hard. That's the reality people will have to face when they partake in a crusade.

Don't be surprised if you find more men delighted at the result of this case and defensive of future similar cases due to the unintelligent and illogical slandering.

The aftermath of this case from people protesting against due process to the Twitter and Boards outbursts has left me giving much less of a fuk about the plights of women than before, which is a shame.

Its like the boy who cried wolf, just the part where everyone gets sick of hearing about unimportant stuff.

At best, constant outrage, constant victimhood and constant blaming just desensitises people. At worst, it actively turns people against the cause du jour.

Genuine issues become lost in a sea of crap. Overall it ends up negative for everyone. Idiots.

Bob_Marley

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Those stats are for the North of Ireland. Not the Republic.

A different jurisdiction that runs its cases differently.

Yeah it's only a hour up the road and no one from the south ever goes there to work or study, so it's all grand, stick the head in the sand, who gives a **** about people who are raped in NI ?

defrule

Silentcorner wrote: »

Accusations of false rape claims are abhorrent and damaging, who wouldn't be horrified at the thought of it....

Though, it is far more likely that your daughter would get raped by someone she knew....and that rapist would most likely not get convicted...which of course would make him an innocent man....

Very valid point and no doubt this has and will happen.

But that is how our legal system functions, the protection of innocence is more important that punishing the guilty, even if it means many guilty will walk free.

It's not always fair, sick and vile people will escape the law. But we must not throw innocent people under a bus in our quest to punish evil-doers.

I guess society could campaign to change that if people felt the sacrifice is worth it, but then there would be no security in being a good person.

tretorn

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

I would think walking into bedrooms strange but not if everyone in the house was happy walking in and out of bedrooms and happy to partake in group sex, hence PJS cheery, do you want to join in to Dara Florence, he wasnt embarrased at all by DAras entry and neither presumably was Olding, it was the woman in the threesome who turned her head away, she could have got up off the bed and left but she didnt, she turned her head away, Dara shut the door and that was that.

Dara then trotted off home leaving her pal in the house. Her pal ate chicken from the fridge and felt sick and Olding brought her to a room where she could sleep, she said Olding didnt interfere with her in anyway, he in fact after the threesome went off to sleep on a sofa in the same room the sick woman slept in and he didnt bother her at all.

Its no wonder the jury said not guilty.

The talk about bloody clothes and bruising etc is painting a very wrong picture, the woman had a 1cm cut on her vagina but I dont recall hearing any evidence of bruising, the metoo idiots are embellishing claims to paint a picture of a gang rape but everyone knows there is no evidence of non consensual sex at all.

Rodin

Mrsmum wrote: »

You just seem so sanguine about the fact that many many rapists are getting away with it. Perhaps if you were in the demographic of young women most likely to be raped and see their attacker go free, you would be a bit more outraged and might even be minded to go on a protest march.

Unless convicted in a court of law, nobody is a rapist.

Therefore no 'rapists' are 'getting away with it.'

razorblunt

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

The basics still aren’t right, the girl wasn’t a friend of the 3 other girls.
One of the 3 girls went to bed on her own, the other 2 went looking for her as they were leaving to go home, walked into the wrong room, saw the three some and left.

torqtorq

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already said these peoples lives were not ruined by the trial, but by unsocial media, and that peoples identities should not be revealed in such a trial.

If I had a 26 year old son who was supposed to be professional rugby player, but was heavily binge drinking and having threesome sex with a vulnerable and very drunk teenage girl and other rugby players, I'd be having a long hard discussion with him why he's total idiot.

He was a 24 year old on the night in question.

Big difference between a 24 yr old and a 26 year old.

Silentcorner

Rodin wrote: »

Unless convicted in a court of law, nobody is a rapist.

Therefore no 'rapists' are 'getting away with it.'

Truly amazing....my god...

iamwhoiam

Rodin wrote: »

Unless convicted in a court of law, nobody is a rapist.

Therefore no 'rapists' are 'getting away with it.'

So a murderer who was never caught is not a murderer ? Is a robber who got off on a technicality not a robber . ?
Is a man who raped a young child and was never caught not a rapist ?

tretorn

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already said these peoples lives were not ruined by the trial, but by unsocial media, and that peoples identities should not be revealed in such a trial.

If I had a 26 year old son who was supposed to be professional rugby player, but was heavily binge drinking and having threesome sex with a vulnerable and very drunk teenage girl and other rugby players, I'd be having a long hard discussion with him why he's total idiot.

This case happened in 2016, the woman is now 21, she was nineteen at the time, Olding was twenty two and Jackson twenty four.

Olding was terribly drunk, probably a lot more drunk than the woman so probably so it wasnt as if he had all his wits about him either. We dont know how much Jackson had to drink but in any event all three of the adults in that room were drunk.

Which one of the men was twenty six at the time.