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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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suicide_circus

The protests will run out of steam once the next moronic hashtag rolls around

Roger Hassenforder

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Hopefully he sues a certain person from Cork!

Mick Barry and Dan Boyle and the Green Party?
Theyre all over twitter with their #s

FrancieBrady

suicide_circus wrote: »

The protests will run out of steam once the next moronic hashtag rolls around

Change in how allegations of rape are dealt with are required though especially in northern Ireland.

That should be the focus rather than the rather silly kneejerk reaction to the outcome of this case by those who had already made up their minds once the allegations were made.

Mrsmum

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It's hardly that black or white.

It's not unreasonable to expect that someone could assert that something is consensual faster than they could establish precisely the nature of the act itself.
"

I would say the opposite is true. A quick look in the door imo would allow you to see what act is taking place and remember Dara Florence said she 100% saw sexual intercourse between PJ and the girl. Deciding who is happy with the situation is far more complicated. That supposes you know the working of the mind of the people involved. Unless we are back to saying as the girl wasn't struggling, screaming or pleading for help, she was happy.

Hoboo

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Here's the thing.

If you believe Dara Florence, you by definition believe that Paddy Jackson lied when he said he did not have vaginal sex with the complainant.

That's a real double bind to be in.

Dara Florence was only 'sure' by 'the movement' of PJ, not actually seeing his penis entering her. Big difference. Surprised she wasn't pulled up on that. But then again, she also said it looked very much consensual, so it would be counter productive to make her seem unreliable.

If he did lie, no doubt it was to avoid the false charge of rape.

Becks610

Hoboo wrote: »

Dara Florence was only 'sure' by 'the movement' of PJ, not actually seeing his penis entering her. Big difference. Surprised she wasn't pulled up on that. But then again, she also said it looked very much consensual, so it would be counter productive to make her seem unreliable.

If he did lie, no doubt it was to avoid the false charge of rape. The woman making the false accusation is far worse.

It is not correct to say someone made a false allegation as that has not been proven.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Hoboo wrote: »

Dara Florence was only 'sure' by 'the movement' of PJ, not actually seeing his penis entering her. Big difference. Surprised she wasn't pulled up on that. But then again, she also said it looked very much consensual, so it would be counter productive to make her seem unreliable.

If he did lie, no doubt it was to avoid the false charge of rape. The woman making the false accusation is far worse.

Mod note: Hoboo, don't post on this thread again. No accusations of lying against the woman will be tolerated!

Buford T. Justice

Outlaw Pete

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Here's the thing.

If you believe Dara Florence, you by definition believe that Paddy Jackson lied when he said he did not have vaginal sex with the complainant.

That's a real double bind to be in.

Well, Dara said she felt she "100% saw sex, from the movement" but when asked did she actually see penetration she said no and added that the angle she was standing she wouldn't have been able to.

What I found said it all was when she was asked on the stand if she had "any concern" about leaving her friend in the house (after witnessing what she did) she said: "No, definitely not." For a girl (who was the only one of the group not drinking) to say that after witnessing group sex, tells me that there is no way that anything untoward was taking place as girls' radar for their friends' safety is usually always on high alert and I think had she felt the sex was not consensual then, one, she would not have just joked and two, she'd have made sure to find her friend and get her out of there.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Flipper22 wrote: »

You are wrong.

Everyone is legally innocent of every crime unless and until proven guilty. A not guilty verdict is a failure to prove guilt. Therefore a continuation of that pre existing state of innocence. Therefore they are innocent. Innocence does not need to proven, it is the default status.

This is basic criminal law theory

My point entirely. "Failure to prove guilt" means just that. "Innocent" means did not commit the crime.

It's entirely possible that courts get verdicts wrong and people who did commit the crime are found not guilty. But that doesn't mean they didn't do it.

Why do you think courts return a verdict of "not guilty" and not "innocent"?

Appledreams15

Omackeral wrote: »

The type of person who would attend that protest and throw up that hashtag is the same type of person who you could, almost definitely and confidently , predict will vote in a given way on other issues. Now I don’t mean just vote, everyone should do that and is entitled to vote for or against whatever the issue is but what I mean is the type of person at these things will be the same as those who will ram these issues down your throat (apologies for the saying, it’s just unfortunate) and campaign and have their fb decked out in all slogans and will wear apparel supporting same and let it almost define them. Just fringe lunatics with, quite often, sh*t fringes.

For all the old guard calling women lunatics, **** fringes etc.
What will you think of the mass protests against rape in Ireland ,being in the international news?

What other country bar India has had mass protests about rape recently?

Ooh it will be showing up the abuse in Ireland for all to see.

Ireland - where women had their heads shaved, and were imprisoned for being raped in places that were still operating until 1996.

Ireland - where 50 men shook a rapist's hand and the victim was shunned in her own town.

Ooohh lets get all the dirt out there for the world to see.

professore

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Do people really not see how Ireland is preceived abroad.
Had anyone been abroad for a considerable length of time, that is talking on here?
We are seen as an alcoholic, misogynistic nation.
You do know other countries don-t treat women the same way that we do?
Ive lived in Spain for a considerable length of time. I have lived in different countries (teaching English). Spain is known for having a macho culture. I was treated with 10 times more respect in Spain than I was in Ireland.
Youve got to look at ourselves. Hatred of women in Ireland has been passed from father and son down for generations. How do we change it? Do you want to continue on like this? Teach the next generation to hate?

I know Spanish men and women personally and they ALL say men treat women far better here than in Spain. So not sure where you are getting that from.

The age of "consent" is 13 in Spain FFS.

Fann Linn

Appledreams15 wrote: »

For all the old guard calling women lunatics, **** fringes etc.
What will you think of the mass protests against rape in Ireland ,being in the international news?

What other country bar India has had mass protests about rape recently?

Ooh it will be showing up the abuse in Ireland for all to see.

Ireland - where women had their heads shaved, and were imprisoned for being raped in places that were still operating until 1996.

Ireland - where 50 men shook a rapist's hand and the victim was shunned in her own town.

Ooohh lets get all the dirt out there for the world to see.

They're hardly mass protests in fairness.

TerrorFirmer

Mrsmum wrote: »

I would say the opposite is true. A quick look in the door imo would allow you to see what act is taking place and remember Dara Florence said she 100% saw sexual intercourse between PJ and the girl. Deciding who is happy with the situation is far more complicated. That supposes you know the working of the mind of the people involved. Unless we are back to saying as the girl wasn't struggling, screaming or pleading for help, she was happy.

What you are suggesting is nothing short of dangerous - that if people appear to be enjoying themselves and are in no apparent danger, we should, be default, assume that they could be suffering a sexual assault?

The men were found not guilty because of the balance of probability there was no rape involved in this scenario.

What people seem to be doing here is grasping at vague hypothetical straws that support incredibly weak/non existent arguments that ignore the most likely scenario established by the evidence presented.

That sets an alarmingly dangerous precedent.

Not to mention seemingly advocating a reversal of our current system where someone should be presumed guilty until proven innocent and the onus should be on the defendant to prove his or her innocence.

Many rape trials don't even have the benefit of a very reliable witness like this one had in Dara Florence, it should be noted as well.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Terribly sad to see all this hatred between the genders.

It will get to a stage soon where two people are afraid to chat to each other in a bar in case an approach is seen as some form of attack.

By the way, listening to some good old fashioned rock is a great antidote to the madness, Guns N Roses blasting through the speakers here!

wexie

Appledreams15 wrote: »

What other country bar India has had mass protests about rape recently?

Sweden : https://sputniknews.com/viral/201712201060155898-sweden-gang-rape-protests/

Spain : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/29/verdict-due-in-trial-of-five-men-accused-of-gang-rape-in-spain

New Zealand : https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/326507/'we-will-not-put-up-with-rape-culture-any-longer'

Actually were you not arguing that something like this could never ever in a month of Sundays happen in Spain because it's the pinnacle of enlightenment and respect for women?

Appledreams15

Fann Linn wrote: »

They're hardly mass protests in fairness.

There was a sizeable crowd in Dublin, and that was organised in 24 hours. They had much more time to organise the one today.

Flipper22

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point entirely. "Failure to prove guilt" means just that. "Innocent" means did not commit the crime.

It's entirely possible that courts get verdicts wrong and people who did commit the crime are found not guilty. But that doesn't mean they didn't do it.

No! Innocent is the status quo in a criminal law context. Innocent implies only that no crime has proven against them.

On your second paragraph, of course that's true. Obviously there are people who are legally innocent, who did commit the crime of which they were accused, but not convicted due to a lack of evidence.

TerrorFirmer

Appledreams15 wrote: »

What other country bar India has had mass protests about rape recently?

What world do you even live in? Notwithstanding the high profile mass protests in the US recently, there was plenty of them in Europe recently as well.

Sorry if it doesn't fit your agenda but you have been constantly ignoring common sense, logic and even the actual truth in this thread since you began contributing.

You'll be disappointed to know that the world genuinely doesn't peer down on Ireland as a dystopia of misogyny nor does it even have a bad reputation.

hynesie08

Appledreams15 wrote: »

For all the old guard calling women lunatics, **** fringes etc.
What will you think of the mass protests against rape in Ireland ,being in the international news?

What other country bar India has had mass protests about rape recently?

Ooh it will be showing up the abuse in Ireland for all to see.

Ireland - where women had their heads shaved, and were imprisoned for being raped in places that were still operating until 1996.

Ireland - where 50 men shook a rapist's hand and the victim was shunned in her own town.

Ooohh lets get all the dirt out there for the world to see.

I think the rest of the world don't give a ****, and if they do they'll be laughing at the people who are protesting without knowing what they're protesting.

"Paddy Jackson is a rapist and the irish justice system is a joke" they scream, proving they're just bandwagon hoppers.

But hey, I can't wait to hear their ideas for a better justice system, since they definitely have them.

Oh, and where else but India???

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5197675/amp/Hundreds-protest-Sweden-series-gang-rapes.html

[Deleted User]

I'm still wondering how I've managed to live in Ireland for 7 years, and only just found out there's a rape culture here.

Guess I hadn't integrated into Irish society as well as I thought I had.

FrancieBrady

Attempting to re-try a case on social media that took 9 weeks to go through court is what should be banned.

Those isolating snippets of the evidence to undermine the work of a jury, that took their jobs and duty seriously, should take a good look at what they are doing.

There are aspects of how rape allegations are handled that require change and that is as far as it should go really.

Appledreams15

wexie wrote: »

Sweden : https://sputniknews.com/viral/201712201060155898-sweden-gang-rape-protests/

Spain : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/29/verdict-due-in-trial-of-five-men-accused-of-gang-rape-in-spain

New Zealand : https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/326507/'we-will-not-put-up-with-rape-culture-any-longer'

Actually were you not arguing that something like this could never ever in a month of Sundays happen in Spain because it's the pinnacle of enlightenment and respect for women?

No. I said I was treated with much more respect in Spain, and I was.
I could talk to men my age, and older men about philosophy, politics, etc
I cane home to Ireland, and I had to leave a group that I joined due to some of the older men in the group making jokes about paedophilia. Ireland's disgrace.

Lucy8080

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Here's the thing.

If you believe Dara Florence, you by definition believe that Paddy Jackson lied when he said he did not have vaginal sex with the complainant.

That's a real double bind to be in.

Dara believed Jackson was having intercourse with the woman ,although she conceded she ..." did not see his penis". Jackson denied any vaginal sex took place.

Just wanted to add the "... did not see his penis" bit, in case folks missed it. I initially missed it too when reading the reports.

hynesie08

Appledreams15 wrote: »

No. I said I was treated with much more respect in Spain, and I was.
I could talk to men my age, and older men about philosophy, politics, etc
I cane home to Ireland, and I had to leave a group that I joined due to some of the older men in the group making jokes about paedophilia. Ireland's disgrace.

You're ignoring a large part of that post....

wexie

Appledreams15 wrote: »

No. I said I was treated with much more respect in Spain, and I was.
I could talk to men my age, and older men about philosophy, politics, etc
I cane home to Ireland, and I had to leave a group that I joined due to some of the older men in the group making jokes about paedophilia. Ireland's disgrace.

So you feel fit to judge all the men in the entire country based on just your bad experiences? You feel that's okay?

Cause if that's how we're doing it these days I have some experiences with women that I might have to examine in order to evaluate my outlook on all other women in the country.

Or perhaps...just maybe....we could decide that some people are dickheads...and some (most) others aren't.

EDIT: just an afterthought but (and you won't like this) you do realize you are no better and as much a part of the problem as men believing all women are sluts right?

pupaxxx

I have to say this whole thing is quite scary.

It seems that if you even dare to agree with the verdict, your shot down and viewed as supporting the "rapists".

I do wonder why so many women are angry with the outcome of the trial. Is it their way of letting out all of their frustration with men? It seems that this trial is a catalyst for the women to release all there personal anger, whatever happened to them, and direct it at PJ. That's just odd.

I do question, why this case that brought those emotions out? There was a case of a footballer trialed and convicted of raping 14 year old girl with suspended sentence not so long ago. He is back playing and all. There has been no outcry, no debate, nothing.

Is it the case that people are happy to see a fall of successful person? Why does it matter what school he went, how well off are his parents, what barrister he hired and so on. Does this mean that if a lad from Jobstown in Tallaght raped a girl, it would be of a lesser crime?

What are they trying to achieve with those marches? What is the purpose of them? To show that you support the girl in this trial? What about other women that were raped? Where they not worth it, because the men who did it were not well known?

I am just confused about this marching thing...

optogirl

hynesie08 wrote: »

I think the rest of the world don't give a ****, and if they do they'll be laughing at the people who are protesting without knowing what they're protesting.

"Paddy Jackson is a rapist and the irish justice system is a joke" they scream, proving they're just bandwagon hoppers.

But hey, I can't wait to hear their ideas for a better justice system, since they definitely have them.

I think if that same style evidence was given in say, a 4 white cops versus black woman case in the States there would absolutely be race riots and I'd totally understand why. Consent or no consent, those beasts sent that girl home in a bloody, hysterical heap. How anyone can say she is 'crying rape' or the myriad other vile words I've heard used to describe her (not least from the men of good character themselves) is sickening to me. We're at a point where women don't care if they are laughed at by a certain cohort for being angry about this - this disgusting language, the treatment, the bragging...and all of it boiling down to 'that's the way lads talk' and 'not indicative of the true character of the author' is terrifying and a lot of people - men and women, have had enough.

It's sad that is always has to come back to what if it was your daughter/sister etc and that some men cannot just have empathy for that girl as a fellow human but again, read that court testimony, read what their lawyers said, read those messages and seriously think how you would feel if that was your sister/niece/cousin/friend/daughter. We are sick of it.

It is genuine anger on display here - not band wagon hopping. I really wish I hadn't spent the last few days thinking about this, that I didn't have to, that it didn't honestly make me feel sick in my stomach but here we are.

Outlaw Pete

professore wrote: »

The age of "consent" is 13 in Spain FFS.

Was raised to 16 in 2015.

munsterlegend

Basil3 wrote: »

I'm still wondering how I've managed to live in Ireland for 7 years, and only just found out there's a rape culture here.

Guess I hadn't integrated into Irish society as well as I thought I had.

Not to mention this case was actually in a part of the UK! Let's face it Ulster rugby players are not exactly immersed in Irish culture in the main.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Tip for the protestors - turn up outside the Munster and Leinster games today, two big matches that will be shown internationally.

Nothing like giving people plenty of opportunity to make fools of themselves.