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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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Comments

Outlaw Pete

ameirecan wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to what she posted exactly?

Broadsheet have removed the comments.

The juror made the remarks in the comments section of an article on Broadsheet.ie about the acquittals in the trial.

The first comment appeared at 8.26pm, seven hours after the jury delivered unanimous not guilty verdict on all counts. The juror made a series of comments describing the trial as well as answering questions from other users.

In the posts the juror addressed the reasons the jury came to its decision and defended the amount of time it had taken to reach a verdict.

I’m sitting here in the kitchen waiting for the cops to arrive, two PSNI constables to arrive and I’m going to be handcuffed away and all I’ve done is just, I made a posting about, this is why there was a return of not guilty,” the juror said.

“When we were all discharged, the 11 of us, the only thing the judge said was, ‘Do you know what, go about your everyday life, whatever, business as usual, but don’t reveal discussions within the jury room,’ and none of that was like part of anything I have said.”

professore

Sidebaro wrote: »

I think Nice Guy Syndrome is an ironic name, as in a guy thinks he's nice but he's actually deluded, self involved and nasty. There are lots of guys like that.

It's an unfortunate name for it then.

Nermal

irishrebe wrote: »

Louis Smith, British gymnast, received a ban from British Gymnastics for some anti-Islamic comments made in jest at a private wedding. This basically ended his career. And he wasn't demeaning and dehumanising someone he had been intimate with.

I wouldn't have sided with the po-faced offence brigade in that situation and I won't in this one either.

Sidebaro

Deleted User wrote:

Would you agree that taking someone's post without quoting and directly addressing the points made might leave things open to be reinterpreted?

Yes.

yourdeadwright

This is really bringing out the retards,
I seen on titter a girl I know who is in a play in one of the big stages in Dublin sy the following ,
We sang the national anthem with loud but with heavy hearts tonight in support for the girl our country has let down,

Number one the girl is British and number two the song is about Irish solider fighting British one's like how stupid are people,

[Deleted User]

mfceiling wrote: »

What the fcuk has that got to do with anything? He has a job....oh major news alert.

what does this speel have to do with anything "Has won the Ulster schools cup (where you're treated like a god), from a good family, no previous convictions/never been in trouble with police, represented his province in professional rugby, represented his country in rugby, moved to the States on a scholarship for a few years, plays AIL rugby for the best club in Ulster" ?

Sidebaro

professore wrote:

It's an unfortunate name for it then.

To be honest, I've never heard of anyone not understanding it until you. Usually people get the sarcasm.

Guy:Incognito

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm speaking on this case and I made a specific point relating to this thread I'm not engaging in whataboutery and attempts to paint me as a hypocrite because I won't find the time to go on google and dredge up all of the horrific cases out there.

That's convenient.

Plus you didnt have to Google anything. I posted the link for you.

spookwoman

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No one seems to have issues with this guy playing loi football http://archive.is/jgJwa

Where's your outrage for an actual rapist?

I live in Waterford, don't follow footy and only heard about that the other day.
Disgusting to say the least that a club would hire someone with that record. I know he was 16 and was charged with defiling instead of rape but she was 14 a bloody kid.
I did see somewhere that at a recent match there was a banner with rape supporters club.

tritium

irishrebe wrote: »

I'm saying you're trying to equate two totally different scenarios and I'm not taking the bait. 'Nice Guy' is a very specific term describing the behaviour I already outlined.

Except you extended your comment much wider than that

Sidebaro

ELM327 wrote:

This is a simple case of women's regret. Of the decisions she made. There was no rape. I'm relieved for the lads. And hope that karma comes to the woman for ruining their careers with her cancerous lies.

If you truly believe in karma then your condemnation of her will not serve you well.

jr86

Augeo wrote: »

what does this speel have to do with anything "Has won the Ulster schools cup (where you're treated like a god), from a good family, no previous convictions/never been in trouble with police, represented his province in professional rugby, represented his country in rugby, moved to the States on a scholarship for a few years, plays AIL rugby for the best club in Ulster" ?

In that it hardly makes him some tag-along saddo you seem to be implying he is.

professore

Sidebaro wrote: »

To be honest, I've never heard of anyone not understanding it until you. Usually people get the sarcasm.

Well you are probably a lot younger than me.

When I was a teen a "nice guy" was a term of admiration. A guy who helps people. A guy who would save someone's life. A guy who would be there if you needed a friend. a guy not boasting and bragging about his sexual prowess or about how he's a male feminist. A guy who would stand up for himself and others weaker than him. A guy not overly concerned about his appearance.

A guy that if he was with a girl and a second guy came along he would tell him to **** off.

A proper man.

What you are describing is a sleazebag.

Ha Long Bay

yourdeadwright wrote: »

This is really bringing out the retards,
I seen on titter a girl I know who is in a play in one of the big stages in Dublin sy the following ,
We sang the national anthem with loud but with heavy hearts tonight in support for the girl our country has let down,

Number one the girl is British and number two the song is about Irish solider fighting British one's like how stupid are people,

Is this a new female only version of Twitter?

FrancieBrady

Roe McDermott on TV3 Tonight Show last night wasn't picked up when she suggested that even if a woman, after a night of what the male believed to be consensual, if drunken sex, wakes up in the morning and decides it wasn't consensual, must be listened to and action taken.

Does she realise how mindbogglingly impossible it makes things?

homerjay2005

my thoughts -

horrible case, especially for the girl. the sad reality is that we have 6 main witness, many of whom were completely hammered drunk and could not remember elements of the night - as a result we had pretty much 6 different accounts which case alot of doubt about the entire thing from all aspects.

prosecution case was poorly constructed and weak - it was clear from day 1 that regardless of what they were going to bring up, the chance of a conviction was very very unlikely.

going after 6 separate charges was completely insane and all it did was just add more pressures on the poor girl. they should have maximum went after 2 lesser charges, 1 each for 2 separate individuals and if they did, i believe theres a big chance that both would have been found guilty.

i am surprised that one person in particular was found not guilty, he is a lucky man.

on the face of it, given the lack of evidence, the result is the right one BUT that for me does not prove nothing happened -something terrible did happen, it was consentual to a point and something changed that which turned the event into a very very sad and terrible ordeal for the victim. she is not a liar in my opinion.

this court case brings up just how disgusting these trials are for victims, it appeared for majority of it that she was the one on trial - 4 barristers against her, only 1 defending her, character witness and propaganda galore fed to the jury about the stature of the accused and multiple other reasons suggest to me she did not get a fair trial.

above all else though, while i accept that social media like whatsapp is a breathing ground for certain cultures and i am sure many people do it at some point and in some form, some of the follow up posts "pumped a girl, roasted her", "top shaggers" and all that just doesnt sit well.

i dont normally agree with the entire men v woman debate that alot of people do but on this case, i think its a sad sad outcome for woman. while many people are saying that women should be believed in cases like this, the irony here is that it looks like the entire case and verdict revolved around the opinion given by another woman, unfortunately for the victim they believed it. baffled though as to how they did accept it but ignored her other evidence about what was actually happening - something that the accused denied.

all in all, a very sad sad case with no winners and a sign that certain things need to change, especially how victims are treated in these cases.

tritium

Sidebaro wrote: »

Would you agree that by that same token so, men who complain women are assholes, women are to blame for many of the things wrong in their life and society etc. are also usually not nice people and they have contempt for women? Possibly even blatant misogyny?

Would you agree that you should include the context of the post I replied to, which you basically just repeated?

Sidebaro

professore wrote:

What you are describing is a sleazebag.

I'm describing Nice Guy Syndrome, not a nice guy.

Stockholm is the capital of Sweden.

Stockholm Syndrome is when you start to empathise with your captors.

See the difference?

OwlsZat

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The complainant had gone 30 hours without sleep by the time she was examined at the Rowan Centre and gave her first evidence to Dr. Lavery.

Where was that said? I dismissed earlier speculation about drugs but maybe there is more to it. I'd assume that the photo's that were taken on the night we analysed closely for dilated pupils? Also is there much of a scene in Belfast for ecstasy. That's the only drug I could imagine would keep someone up as long. 30 hours awake is no mean feat regardless of the mental state.

professore

Very interesting piece in the indo about rape trials in general and very relevant to this case.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/my-experience-on-a-rape-trial-jury-sometimes-doing-the-right-thing-doesnt-feel-like-the-right-thing-to-do-36758191.html

spookwoman

2 people questioned about her name being released https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/two-quizzed-over-claims-woman-at-centre-of-rugby-rape-trial-was-identified-on-social-media-36758441.html

looks like the civil suits are starting https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rugby-pairs-privacy-civil-suit-against-the-bbc-will-now-go-ahead-36754877.html

Sidebaro

tritium wrote:

Would you agree that you should include the context of the post I replied to, which you basically just repeated?

Not really, my post was not a question to you but a means of showing you how far off your comparison was.

professore

Sidebaro wrote: »

I'm describing Nice Guy Syndrome, not a nice guy.

Stockholm is the capital of Sweden.

Stockholm Syndrome is when you start to empathise with your captors.

See the difference?

I'm not thick ... I know what nice guy syndrome is.

I just said it's a shame it's described like that. It's a very poor name for it. If a guy hears girls saying "I don't like nice guys" what's he going to think? She likes assholes? I need to be an asshole as that's what girls like? I get the impression that's what a lot of guys think nowadays anyway.

For Forks Sake

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No one seems to have issues with this guy playing loi football http://archive.is/jgJwa

Where's your outrage for an actual rapist?

It might require a modicum of effort (as opposed to a bus into town) to go to Waterford for a protest.

I see they're playing St. Pats in a couple of weeks, lets see if the lynch mob decide to head out to Inchicore....

goz83

Long thread this. I went through 20 pages before becoming bored with people defining what not guilty really meant :rolleyes:

The jury got this right. The case should never have gone to court. Many lives ruined because (imo) the girl regretted what she did with the lads.

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

"Not guilty" is not the same as "innocent", and it all came down to he-said she-said. I don't think any of us are in the position to know what truly happened on that night. We've only heard a fraction of a percent of what evidence was in the trial.

Technically you’re wrong. The legal definition of not guilty “is” innocent. But many people don’t pay any attention to the legal definition.

Also it wasn’t a he-said she-said thing. The female witness who saw what she believed to be consensual sex was key here and I believe the trial would still be ongoing had she not been a witness.

Sidebaro wrote: »

If you say one thing is worse than another then you kind of are downplaying it, no?

Surely if counselling and time can get you to live with being raped then it would work for being falsely accused also?

Equally, if no amount of time or counselling can erase an accusation then it also can't erase such a traumatic thing like being raped?

What ridiculous statements. Did you even think before writing that. Firstly, highlighing one thing over another is not downplaying the other. It is merely placing them in their order of magnitude in the opinion of the person saying so.

How on earth can counselling materially help a person falsely accused of rape? Regardless of their “feelings” about it, they are still tarnished for the rest of their lives. Many can’t live with the stigma and take their own lives.

Counselling is much more effective for someone who was raped. And I am not downplaying rape at all. I think it is a horrible, evil crime deserving of severe punishment....which is ironically the very reason being falsely accused is so awful for the accused.

I think someone who falsely accuses someone of rape should be treated like a rapist. They have ruined lives all around and beyond them.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

More drivel. Sure, ignore it. Ignore that you have been limited for the rest of your life. Any sniff of the accusation and you can kiss your career goodbye. No invites to social gatherings for the falsely accused. By god, don’t have your children near him...after all....no smoke without fire, right? Bull!

tritium

professore wrote: »

Very interesting piece in the indo about rape trials in general and very relevant to this case.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/my-experience-on-a-rape-trial-jury-sometimes-doing-the-right-thing-doesnt-feel-like-the-right-thing-to-do-36758191.html

It’s a good piece that touches on one of the key elements of the legal system. What’ll often gets missed is the same principle applies in all cases, not just sexual assault. It does inevitably mean some guilty people walk free, on the basis the we as a society choose to value the protection of the innocent more highly.

jmayo

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Jackson and Olding's employers have not reinstated them immediately.

So clearly they are having a serious think before deciding what happens with them.

Even if there hadn't been a rape trial, their behaviour and their subsequent texting will not go down well with a very conservative fanbase and some very conservative administrators.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

You might not like it, but a right to protest is a fundamental part of democracy.

Protests at trial verdicts are not a new thing either. They've been going on for pretty much as long as trials have existed.

And I highly doubt the protests were just at the verdict - there were likely a lot of people there who could accept the verdict but wanted to protest about related issues raised by the trial.

But what use is protesting in this country ?
It is like when people protest here about black lives matter or trump, the Iraq war or God knows what that is either happening in another jurisdiction.
And it is one thing to protest against a governments actions, even a foreign government's actions by going to their embassy, it is another thing to protest about their judicial system.

lukesmom wrote: »

Why should they leave? They have done nothing wrong. Yes the texts were unfortunate, but they were private texts between friends. There is no way that they should be shipped off the Exeter to play all because of some texts and because they engaged in a threesome. If the witness hadn't of caught them all in the act I don't suppose we would all be talking about it now. Its really unfair that their lives have been ruined like this. They should be kept on their team to show a message to people that you cannot falsely accuse somebody of rape and get anything out of it.

Do you live in the real world?

Even if it wasn't a rape trial their subsequent messaging is enough to get them in difficulty.

Sponsors will not want to touch them.
Sponsors always consider the bottom line and they remember that half their prospective market are mothers, daughters, sisters.

Tiger Woods lost endorsements because of his extra marital schenanagins.
Gatorade, AT&T, Accenture and Gillette all drop their sponsorship deals with Woods.
And he was not being charged with rape, engaging in threesomes with young ones, texting all his mates bragging about it and claiming that they were sluts.
Not that he has many friends anyway.

Ulster rugby would be pretty conservative all round.
Hell when you have the likes of the the Paisleys fans what do you expect.

Some of their players e.g ex player Ruan Pienaar would also be pretty religious.
Hell he turned down European rugby greats Toulon because of his religion.
Current players like Paul Marshall, Wiehahn Herbst, Andrew Trimble and Louis Ludik have all been open about their Christian faith.

Also those texts and messages are no longer private and the genie can't be put back in the box.

Gerald Ratner once quipped that his massive jewellery chain sold overpriced cra* and it finished his business.
Once it is said and heard/seen publicly it cannot be unheard/unseen.

Andy Gray and Richard Keys off camera comments about a female linesman were leaked and they got the axe.
They were private comments were they not ?

They are finished in Ireland.
At this stage if they are on the bench for a game there will be a protest of some sort.
And the other bottom line is they are not really that good for a team to take a huge amount of hassel, they are not worth it.

tritium

Sidebaro wrote: »

Not really, my post was not a question to you but a means of showing you how far off your comparison was.

Since it’s not I guess you failed miserably so

Maybe try harder next time

cloudatlas

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm speaking on this case and I made a specific point relating to this thread I'm not engaging in whataboutery and attempts to paint me as a hypocrite because I won't find the time to go on google and dredge up all of the horrific cases out there.

That's convenient.

Plus you didnt have to Google anything. I posted the link for you.

as soon as there is a point made about this case that posters don't want to engage with there are flights of fancy, 'what if dara was a man' 'what if the complainant was a man' look at this other case, just look over there not here at what's going on here. It's becoming boring.

Sidebaro

professore wrote:

I'm not thick ... I know what nice guy syndrome is.

Yes, now you do.

professore wrote:

I just said it's a shame it's described like that. It's a very poor name for it. If a guy hears girls saying "I don't like nice guys" what's he going to think? She likes assholes? I need to be an asshole as that's what girls like? I get the impression that's what a lot of guys think nowadays anyway.

Oh ****...wait...No you don't. Back to the drawing board.

There is a bank heist in Dublin. A well to do man from a good family who's friends with famous people approaches. He is not sad, as you can tell from his credentials. He asks someone with blue hair (a feminazi obviously, her hair colour indicates this) what is going on. She replies that there is a hostage situation in the bank. 'In my local bank?' he says. 'Yes' says the feminazi, while hating him just for being a man, 'The hostages have developed Stockholm Symdrome'. 'Wait a minute' said the non sad man, 'If this is taking place in the capital of Sweden, then it can't be my local bank?'

And everybody lived happily ever after.