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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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Comments

Uncharted

Sidebaro wrote: »

Jailed? No.

Educated? Perhaps.

You're nowhere near as clever as you perceive yourself...... the opposite is true. Pitiful attempt at rabble rousing

yourdeadwright

mayolady14 wrote: »

Uncharted wrote: »

I don't believe you either..... should I be jailed too? I mean you say you don't and didn't want it all brought up again,which is fair enough.... Thats your perogative yet you keep mentioning it......

No. I chose to bring it up in an anonymous forum to show how reluctant we are to believe rape victims. I have literally no reason to lie. His name is not mentioned and the post was edited so you don’t even know his team or sport. You don’t know when it happened. I didn’t mentioned the Garda station. I have literally nothing to gain or prove and yet still....we can’t believe women when they disclose they were assaulted

I think you need to realise your on the internet and don't take it personally .
Rule number one of the internet is don't believe anyone on a forum , We literally teach our children this in school so don't be surprised if people don't take your word,

retro:electro

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I'm sure the men in India said the same thing.
We are a joke of a nation. I don't think you see how Ireland is regarded abroad. Totally backwards and treating women like ****.
At mass protests on rape in India, the lawyer for the rapist said 'India is the best country, in india there is no place for a woman'
How different are we? How different are we ?shame on you Ireland!

What did you want them to base a guilty verdict on? Please answer my question without finger wagging at Ireland and comparing us to India (FYI this trial didn’t take place in Ireland)

Mokuba

mayolady14 wrote: »

I will not be engaging with you further.

If you refuse to accept logic then its probably for the best.

mayolady14

Wibbs wrote: »

Why should a society and the law automatically believe anyone's claims of a crime? Or are Women™ to be automatically treated and believed out of the box. What special inability to lie powers do they have? That's beyond idiotic a take. Though again the usual "feminist" nonsense peddled.

No one is saying women can’t lie or we should lock men up on the basis for one testimony? If you told me someone robbed you, I’d believe you. I might not believe who you say it was, but I’d believe you.

OldNotWIse

I don't get how there are so many people who are so certain of what happened - were they all there?

Max Prophet

mayolady14 wrote: »

No one is saying women can’t lie or we should lock men up on the basis for one testimony? If you told me someone robbed you, I’d believe you. I might not believe who you say it was, but I’d believe you.

Crazy analogy to make.

irishrebe

Wibbs wrote: »

mayolady14 wrote: »

I have literally nothing to gain or prove and yet still....we can’t believe women when they disclose they were assaulted

Why should a society and the law automatically believe anyone's claims of a crime? Or are Women™ to be automatically treated and believed out of the box. What special inability to lie powers do they have? That's beyond idiotic a take. Though again the usual "feminist" nonsense peddled.

Nobody is saying they should be automatically believed. But as it stands, they tend NOT to be believed. That is the default reaction. Someone is posting here, saying they have been raped, and look how many people are undermining her, victim blaming and insisting she must be a liar. How can you honestly not think there's a serious problem in this country? I've sent the link to this thread to various friends around the world and they're absolutely appalled.

skallywag

Based on the evidence that was brought into the public domain during the trial (perhaps the jurers themselves were privy to more information, I am not sure) I would also have decided to acquit if I had been on the jury.

irishrebe

Max Prophet wrote: »

mayolady14 wrote: »

No one is saying women can’t lie or we should lock men up on the basis for one testimony? If you told me someone robbed you, I’d believe you. I might not believe who you say it was, but I’d believe you.

Crazy analogy to make.

Why is it?

mayolady14

Max Prophet wrote: »

Crazy analogy to make.

How? If someone tells you a crime happened to them do you not believe them?

wexie

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I don't get how there are so many people who are so certain of what happened - were they all there?

because people are very reluctant (afraid?) to challenge their own perceptions and world views...

Imagine....having to come to the conclusion that perhaps, somewhere along the way....you made a wrong assumption about something or someone....

How could you possibly ever look at yourself in the mirror

:eek:

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

seamus wrote: »

If you cannot prove that a crime was committed by the person, then what they did was not a crime.

This is wrong.

If i rob a bank that is a crime.

If the court cannot prove I robbed the bank that does not mean that me robbing the bank is not a crime.

Mokuba

irishrebe wrote: »

Nobody is saying they should be automatically believed. But as it stands, they tend NOT to be believed. That is the default reaction. Someone is posting here, saying they have been raped, and look how many people are undermining her, victim blaming and insisting she must be a liar. How can you honestly not think there's a serious problem in this country? I've sent the link to this thread to various friends around the world and they're absolutely appalled.

Why would you automatically believe a stranger that you don't know?

And why would it make any difference to the stranger whether some randomers on a forum believe her?

What a strange post.

Wibbs

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Mayolady, today all women of Ireland stand together.

Man the gift that keeps on giving. Now Irish Women™ are of a hive mind and all are happy to throw away the rule of law in a modern western liberal society and a verdict arrived through that. Never mind that as I pointed out earlier research both here and abroad shows that the more women are on a jury the less likely a guilty verdict will be handed down for rape. In Ireland during the course of that study over five years not a single case where women were the majority on a jury was a guilty verdict handed down. So it seems Irish Women™ are far less likely to automatically trust women in rape cases.

It is vitally important to raise international awareness of human rights abuses of women in Ireland

You really do believe you live in some patriarchal totalitarian state? That is provably ridiculous a claim to make, though not such a shock nor uncommon in the victimhood movements in modern western culture these days.

pleas advice

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I don't get how there are so many people who are so certain of what happened - were they all there?

It's like the GPO on Easter Monday

[Deleted User]

Appledreams15 wrote: »

We are a joke of a nation. I don't think you see how Ireland is regarded abroad. Totally backwards and treating women like ****.

First of all, you're going on like a complete assclown. Secondly, the trial this thread is about is from the courts of the UK, not Rep of Ireland. Thirdly, Irish women have every right that men have, they've never had it better and I'm very thankful for that.

I know a major point right now is the upcoming referendum and I recognise that and I hope that's sorted out soon.

ShowMeTheCash

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Mayolady, today all women of Ireland stand together. I feel your pain, and I have suffered what you have suffered. It is so important to get as many people to these rallies today as possible. It is vitally important to raise international awareness of human rights abuses of women in Ireland

Look you are going to come across as a crack-pot apposed to a strong woman seeking awareness of human rights abuses if you cannot even get the country in which these "human rights abuses" are happening.....

Whether you like it or not it being emotionally charged with no logical argument does not help you cause it actually hinders it.... Every time you say something false or untrue or just to hyperbole you are effectively damaging your own cause!

Sidebaro

Uncharted wrote:

You're nowhere near as clever as you perceive yourself...... the opposite is true. Pitiful attempt at rabble rousing

I'm not claiming to be clever. I merely claimed you needed to educate yourself on the reasons as to why so few rape victims come forward. Disbelieving them, as you did (almost proudly?), is part of that.

OldNotWIse

irishrebe wrote: »

Nobody is saying they should be automatically believed. But as it stands, they tend NOT to be believed. That is the default reaction. Someone is posting here, saying they have been raped, and look how many people are undermining her, victim blaming and insisting she must be a liar. How can you honestly not think there's a serious problem in this country? I've sent the link to this thread to various friends around the world and they're absolutely appalled.

Rape is a heinous crime and therefore it is right that the burden of proof is high. Why should we automatically assume someone is guilty just because it is rape? The presumption of innocence is such an integral part of our justice system. While I think there should be more sensitivity around reporting on cases like this (to protect the complainant and the accused) I would rather accept the flaws of a justice system than a mob culture where social media conviction and vigilante justice rule.

Max Prophet

mayolady14 wrote: »

How? If someone tells you a crime happened to them do you not believe them?

Many reasons of circumstance for people to invent crimes - insurance fraud, attention seeking, pathological lying, setting up someone to accuse them of committing the crime - hell hath no fury etc.....

irishrebe

seamus wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Stabbing someone to death is ALWAYS a crime, whether it was on purpose or not.

That's not correct. There are circumstances where you may stab someone to death and you haven't committed a crime.

This is why you don't seem to get my point. Rape does not occupy some special category where a crime can have occurred but the person who committed it is not a criminal.

If you cannot prove that a crime was committed by the person, then what they did was not a crime. The legal system has to work that way, it makes no sense otherwise.

You can always tag the "...but the court may have made a mistake" rider onto any verdict. That's taken as a given, it doesn't even need to be said.

And what are they? You're honestly telling me that 99% of courts wouldn't convict a person who says they 'accidentally' stabbed someone to death? They somehow tripped with a knife in their hand, and landed with enough force to kill a person? Compare that to someone claiming that the intercourse they had was consensual. Which one is many, many times harder to prove? You're missing the point, again.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

Appledreams15 wrote: »

It is so important to get as many people to these rallies today as possible.

No, it's really not.

irishrebe

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

If you cannot prove that a crime was committed by the person, then what they did was not a crime.

This is wrong.

If i rob a bank that is a crime.

If the court cannot prove I robbed the bank that does not mean that me robbing the bank is not a crime.

Thank God somebody understands logic and how the law works.

OldNotWIse

Wibbs wrote: »

Man the gift that keeps on giving. Now Irish Women™ are of a hive mind and all are happy to throw away the rule of law in a modern western liberal society and a verdict arrived through that. Never mind that as I pointed out earlier research both here and abroad shows that the more women are on a jury the less likely a guilty verdict will be handed down for rape. In Ireland during the course of that study over five years not a single case where women were the majority on a jury was a guilty verdict handed down. So it seems Irish Women™ are far less likely to automatically trust women in rape cases.

You really do believe you live in some patriarchal totalitarian state? That is provably ridiculous a claim to make, though not such a shock nor uncommon in the victimhood movements in modern western culture these days.

They don't speak for me anyway. I am disgusted at the outpouring on social media that wants to sh*t on the presumption of innocence and portray all Irish women as some kind of singular psyche.

[Deleted User]

Max Prophet wrote: »

Apparently 10s of people gathering at the spire for this "protest"

Nermal

mayolady14 wrote: »

How? If someone tells you a crime happened to them do you not believe them?

If someone tells you they're innocent of a crime do you not believe them?

irishrebe

OldNotWIse wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Nobody is saying they should be automatically believed. But as it stands, they tend NOT to be believed. That is the default reaction. Someone is posting here, saying they have been raped, and look how many people are undermining her, victim blaming and insisting she must be a liar. How can you honestly not think there's a serious problem in this country? I've sent the link to this thread to various friends around the world and they're absolutely appalled.

Rape is a heinous crime and therefore it is right that the burden of proof is high. Why should we automatically assume someone is guilty just because it is rape? The presumption of innocence is such an integral part of our justice system. While I think there should be more sensitivity around reporting on cases like this (to protect the complainant and the accused) I would rather accept the flaws of a justice system than a mob culture where social media conviction and vigilante justice rule.

It's not about assuming someone is guilty of rape. It's about NOT assuming someone is guilty of lying about being raped.

blanch152

mayolady14 wrote: »

Of course. But I can tell you I’m literally ashamed of every Irish man and woman who want this girl to be hung drawn and quartered for reporting what happened her. The way she is being spoken about it shocking. And shows why we don’t come forward more often

I think there are a large number of people in the middle ground who believe at the very least that she had a very unpleasant experience, and on the other side believe that the men concerned at the very least behaved very inapprorpriately.

Whether that amounted to rape is another thing, but to arbitrate on that issue is what the courts and the jury system are for. But to go from people accepting the verdit to saying that a large number of people want this girl to be hung drawn and quartered is to be distracted by attention-seekers and trolls. The vast majority feel sympathy and empathy for the girl because of the experience she endured, but that does not mean they believe the men were guilty of rape.