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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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david75

Mod:
< this isn't the place to discuss moderation. Take it to pm or helpdesk>

Any further posts discussing moderation will be deleted and carded.

smacl

antiskeptic wrote: »

Quite aside from the 8th being repealed or not, I think the world, generally speaking, is going down the toilet - and this country along with it.

Out of interest, what time frame are you talking about here? At what point in the past was the world a better place, or for that matter, when in the past was Ireland a better place?

Graces7

smacl wrote: »

Out of interest, what time frame are you talking about here? At what point in the past was the world a better place, or for that matter, when in the past was Ireland a better place?

It was a different world( I am probably one of the oldest here; octopus cr creeping on..) and less demanding in many ways. Simpler, fewer "things"

One of the oldest campaigners for womens rights lamented on radio that these days no one seemed to celebrate motherhood.

sorry; got distracted... It was a more moral age. In the broadest sense. Scandals were hushed up pronto. I had the dubious disticntion of being the only girl in my year at senior school whose father had run away with another woman . Family mattered much more, loyalty to commitments. SELF ad self expression were less important that family etc and it was that awareness of the needs of others. Girls wee protected, kept separate. We had never heard of abortion, and unplanned pregnancies ended in marriage pdq

NB I was raised in the north of England, C of E.

As we had fewer distractions eg tv internet, we were together more as family .

Babies were treasured always and when the NHS came in, infant mortality dropped fast

True morality was a part of our lives. Caring,responsibility . We were also materially poorer.

What that campaigner said tore at my heart for these days when someone says that are expecting, othere is a hesitation and sometimes you need to ask if they are happy about it

We would never have entertained that thought. Babies always accepted. My mother hung on to the big pram for years as she wanted more than us 2.

david75

Graces7 wrote: »

It was a different world( I am probably one of the oldest here; octopus cr creeping on..) and less demanding in many ways. Simpler, fewer "things"

One of the oldest campaigners for womens rights lamented on radio that these days no one seemed to celebrate motherhood.

It’s a lovely thought. But we haven’t really every given women or mothers their fair dues here in Ireland. Other catholic countries, mothers are culturally ‘god’ in that household. End of story final word you do not cross ma (Italy and Mexico and Brazil for example)
Not so here. Never. I won’t bring up what and who we have to blame for that. We all know
It would be brilliant if we finally did but I think that whole idea went out a generation ago. We don’t love and treasure mams as much as we should be even less so these days. Sadly.

Graces7

david75 wrote: »

It’s a lovely thought. But we haven’t really every given women or mothers their fair dues here in Ireland. Other catholic countries, mothers are culturally ‘god’ in that household. End of story final word you do not cross ma (Italy and Mexico and Brazil for example)
Not so here. Never. I won’t bring up what and who we have to blame for that. We all know
It would be brilliant if we finally did but I think that whole idea went out a generation ago. We don’t love and treasure mams as much as we should be even less so these days. Sadly.

The saddest thing in your post is that you feel you have to apportion blame to others . And you scapegoat. So no we do not "all know"

That became lost when women ie mothers, asserted themsleves by choice and took high flying careers. Isaw that when after my mother being at home when I came in from school, I became a "latch key " child. Aged I think 8 Hardly saw her after that during the week.

Tobe that you have to BE that

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

Her views are extremist, she provides links to an extremist Christian site who are well known in other groups as being far out there with their interpretations and views.

That campaign against non-medically necessary abortion won't be won. You've literally been hounded out of every thread related to this discussion thusfar. I've no problem shutting you down in this one either or at least force you into producing a quality post.

No I did not. REALLY! Someone tried to make that link and I said then that I had no idea what they were talking about.

ALL true Christianity is counter-cultural as your posts show

So you think you have the power to "shut " others down? No way. lol...DO NOT KILL. Period

Graces7

DubInMeath wrote: »

Well the person who is thanking you the most on this thread just posted a link from an extremist religious publication.

If you mean me? I did not as I know and know of any such extremist religious publication.

Graces7

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

That would be a first!

Thi sis not about "quality posts" bt about the wrongs against God's law in aborting living humanity

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

If you mean me? I did not as I know and know of any such extremist religious publication.

You posted links to churchmiitant.com. Do you know who Michael Voris is? The Catholic Hierarchy have said of him "his remarks promote division and extremism".

david75

Graces7 wrote: »

The saddest thing in your post is that you feel you have to apportion blame to others . And you scapegoat. So no we do not "all know"

That became lost when women ie mothers, asserted themsleves by choice and took high flying careers. Isaw that when after my mother being at home when I came in from school, I became a "latch key " child. Aged I think 8 Hardly saw her after that during the week.

Tobe that you have to BE that

I didn’t apportion blame. Ireland is a historically patriarchal society. It has always been. That’s a fact. No blame being dished out. So you can apologise for that.

So you’re blaming women for simply wanting lives of their own outside of the kitchen and getting careers?? Seriously??

Form a cogent argument Graces. The one above is ludicrous and clearly one with foundations in your own personal hurt and experience. I’m sorry about that. We all had a hard time. I Dont’ hate all clergy cos one clergy member raped me.
You shouldn’t blame all mothers cos your own a wanted a life of her own and wasn’t there for you. Weird she’s not a role model for you to aspire to but I understand your view more.

None of this has any place in forcing women to have unwanted kids go through exleriences like yours. Why would you make any child do that? You wouldn’t.

So let’s not.

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

No I did not. REALLY! Someone tried to make that link and I said then that I had no idea what they were talking about.

ALL true Christianity is counter-cultural as your posts show

So you think you have the power to "shut " others down? No way. lol...DO NOT KILL. Period

But you have the power to shut others down by forcing women to contend with unwanted pregnancies is it?

Timberrrrrrrr

Graces7 wrote: »

Thi sis not about "quality posts" bt about the wrongs against God's law in aborting living humanity

Yeah

I'm an atheist so your "god's " law means fiddly squat to me.

end of the road

robarmstrong wrote: »

But you have the power to shut others down by forcing women to contend with unwanted pregnancies is it?

preventing women from killing their unborn child outside medical necessity isn't shutting them down. they can end the pregnancy at the stage the unborn can viably live outside the womb. at the end of the day, as it stands the unborn have a right to life in this country. again i have to say, not a single argument has been put forward as to why that should change. especially as (at least on these threads) nearly all of us on the pro-life side agree that where medically necessary, abortion must be provided.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

preventing women from killing their unborn child outside medical necessity isn't shutting them down. they can end the pregnancy at the stage the unborn can viably live outside the womb. at the end of the day, as it stands the unborn have a right to life in this country. again i have to say, not a single argument has been put forward as to why that should change. especially as (at least on these threads) nearly all of us on the pro-life side agree that where medically necessary, abortion must be provided.

I see you’re back posting after ducking out to avoid having to reply to the posts about extreme views by pro life posters. Colour me shocked.

splinter65

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yeah

I'm an atheist so your "god's " law means fiddly squat to me.

But this thread is about wether a Christian can be in favour of abortion.
So what’s your position on that subject?

Timberrrrrrrr

splinter65 wrote: »

But this thread is about wether a Christian can be in favour of abortion.
So what’s your position on that subject?

My positions yes Christians Can and will vote in favour of abortion. You and others may say that "morally" they can't or shouldn't but the fact of the matter is that many hundreds of thousands will vote to repeal.

robarmstrong

end of the road wrote: »

preventing women from killing their unborn child outside medical necessity isn't shutting them down. they can end the pregnancy at the stage the unborn can viably live outside the womb. at the end of the day, as it stands the unborn have a right to life in this country. again i have to say, not a single argument has been put forward as to why that should change. especially as (at least on these threads) nearly all of us on the pro-life side agree that where medically necessary, abortion must be provided.

Not really relevant as the legislation puts forward a 12 week cut off.

There's been plenty of arguments, you just don't acknowledge them whatsoever and continue to soapbox/claim your opinion as fact.

Delirium

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yeah

I'm an atheist so your "god's " law means fiddly squat to me.

MOD NOTE

Just a reminder you're posting in the Christianity forum, in a thread title 'Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?', so you may not be interested in Gods law but it is relevant to the discussion.

So maybe be less dismissive of Christian beliefs while posting in the forum.

Thanks for your attention.

Delirium

end of the road wrote: »

preventing women from killing their unborn child outside medical necessity isn't shutting them down. they can end the pregnancy at the stage the unborn can viably live outside the womb. at the end of the day, as it stands the unborn have a right to life in this country. again i have to say, not a single argument has been put forward as to why that should change. especially as (at least on these threads) nearly all of us on the pro-life side agree that where medically necessary, abortion must be provided.

And yet you oppose repealing the 8th.

Simple example a woman on Twitter gave only this week. She is currently receiving cancer treatment.

Before every treatment, she has to take a pregnancy test. If a test is positive, she will not receive her treatment.

She falls under any definition I can conceive of 'medically necessary' yet she doesn't have that option.

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

But you have the power to shut others down by forcing women to contend with unwanted pregnancies is it?

Oh DEAR! What a quantum leap into space. I have no power to force and no will to do so.

Graces7

SusieBlue wrote: »

I see you’re back posting after ducking out to avoid having to reply to the posts about extreme views by pro life posters. Colour me shocked.

This kind of taunting ?

Some of us do have lives outside boards ie and other things to do . No one here DUCKS out.

Graces7

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

My positions yes Christians Can and will vote in favour of abortion. You and others may say that "morally" they can't or shouldn't but the fact of the matter is that many hundreds of thousands will vote to repeal.

Then they need to rethink their vocations and their true loyalty. And ho please are you so ... savvy re numbers? Hyperbole again.

Yes there will be a tornness. Like the lady I talked to after the same sex referendum. Who wanted her son to e happy but had a deep faith. She told me she did not vote for that reason and that was respected. That seems to have happened often

Graces7

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yeah

I'm an atheist so your "god's " law means fiddly squat to me.

Please read the thread title?

Graces7

Hearts and violins David ? I thought better of you.

david75 wrote: »

I didn’t apportion blame. Ireland is a historically patriarchal society. It has always been. That’s a fact. No blame being dished out. So you can apologise for that.

Nasty veiled hints we all know. who to blame . was the phrase.

So you’re blaming women for simply wanting lives of their own outside of the kitchen and getting careers?? Seriously??

So YOU see being a wife and mother in that demeaning and contemptuous way?

Form a cogent argument Graces. The one above is ludicrous and clearly one with foundations in your own personal hurt and experience. I’m sorry about that. We all had a hard time. I Dont’ hate all clergy cos one clergy member raped me.
You shouldn’t blame all mothers cos your own a wanted a life of her own and wasn’t there for you. Weird she’s not a role model for you to aspire to but I
understand your view more.

Please spare us the hearts and flowers and violins routine! :rolleyes: What I wrote has nothing to do with your response.

None of this has any place in forcing women to have unwanted kids go through exleriences like yours. Why would you make any child do that? You wouldn’t.

roflol.. So you would deny life to children because a woman refuses to let them live? refuses to accept and honour life within her? Some solution. Jesus speaks very cogently about your kind of attitude and this IS the christianity forum
"Unwanted"? Gee

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh DEAR! What a quantum leap into space. I have no power to force and no will to do so.

That's essentially what voting to save the 8th does, so yes you would be forcing women to keep pregnancies they can't contend with.

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

That's essentially what voting to save the 8th does, so yes you would be forcing women to keep pregnancies they can't contend with.

:rolleyes:

So the baby has to die in your book?

Peregrinus

Delirium wrote: »

And yet you oppose repealing the 8th.

Simple example a woman on Twitter gave only this week. She is currently receiving cancer treatment.

Before every treatment, she has to take a pregnancy test. If a test is positive, she will not receive her treatment.

She falls under any definition I can conceive of 'medically necessary' yet she doesn't have that option.

This isn't an issue unique to Ireland. The issue with, say, radiotherapy while pregnant is not so much that it will induce an abortion as that it will prejudice the development of the foetus, which will be carried to term and born, but suffer from perhaps severe impairment. Some forms of chemotherapy carry the same risk, at any rate during some stages of pregnancy.

Which presents an ethical dilemma, obviously. Doctors are reluctant to employ a treatment which will have therapeutic benefit for the mother, but is likely to inflict lasting detriment on the yet-to-be-born child. In this situation there's a range of options here, which include deferring the treatment until the pregnancy is complete (or has reached a stage where the treatment no longer threatens foetal development), inducing labour early, terminating the pregnancy, substituting a lower-risk treatment, etc, etc. Obviously up to now terminating the pregnancy has not been part of the range of available options but, even if it now will be, the fundamental - and agonising - problem doesn't go away. A pregnant cancer patient who wishes to continue her pregnancy will still find doctors unwilling to administer certain treatments. And a cancer patient who may be pregnant may still find that doctors need to establish whether she is or not in order to advise her about certain treatments. They don't want to administer the treatment and only subsequently discover that the patient was pregnant.

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

So the baby has to die in your book?

Yes the 12 week fetus will have to be terminated in my book. As I care about the mothers welfare and ability to contend with a pregnancy a whole lot more than my own personal beliefs on the matter.

Delirium

@Graces7 I've edited one of your posts as I couldn't make head or tails if you or david was speaking in your post.

.......

This post has been deleted.