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Child Item

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

which from what i can see didn't say anything that is incorrect. and that poster is as far from being a religious extremist as it gets.

Going to have to disagree with you there.

Graces7

DubInMeath wrote: »

Going to have to disagree with you there.

end of the road is correct. I chose the link that dealt with aborted babies who were alive being left to die. Neat evasion here.

Please define extremist also?

And before I get accused again of not responding immediately to posts that disagree with me? I am not online at the times many are because of serious chronic illness and often cannot catch up with posts easily

Graces7

NuMarvel wrote: »

Under Irish law, there's more to it than that.

If I killed a newborn tomorrow, I could face a charge of murder which brings with it an automatic life sentence. On the other hand, if I carried out an illegal abortion, my crime would be "destruction of the unborn", and my maximum penalty would be 14 years.

Similarly, our constitution expressly protects the freedom to travel abroad for an abortion, but there's no equivalent provision for infanticide. And I'd say a referendum to include one wouldn't have a chance in being held, let alone being passed.

It's clear that the law, and the people in general, view abortion and infanticide as two different things. And that'll remain the case no matter what way the referendum goes.

That was my point exactly, that that is totally illogical. Same child.

smacl

Graces7 wrote: »

Please define extremist also?

In the context of ChurchMilitant.com, here's what the more mainstream National Catholic Reporter have to say;

The sole desire of both Lepanto and Church Militant is to create division, confusion, and conflict within the Church. Actions of that nature run contrary to Christian tradition. Their reports are not to be taken seriously.

I doubt that the views pushed by hard right-wing American religious activists are either relevant to the Irish debate or representative of the views of a significant number of people in this country.

Graces7

smacl wrote: »

In the context of ChurchMilitant.com, here's what the more mainstream National Catholic Reporter have to say;

I doubt that the views pushed by hard right-wing American religious activists are either relevant to the Irish debate or representative of the views of a significant number of people in this country.

Relevance to the thread please? And nothing to do with my life or faith. Had never heard of all this and not interested. Religion is not what this is about. Faith is. Killing is against the law of God .

smacl

Graces7 wrote: »

Relevance to the thread please? Again you are attacking Christianity .

Firstly, I'm not attacking Christianity, I'm pointing out that more mainstream Christian groups are very critical of right wing Christian extremist groups such as Church militant. If anything, I'd suggest that is being positive about Christianity. Secondly, it is relevant to the debate as questions about foreign influence and interests (e.g. George Soros, where does Iona get its money etc...) are being asked by both sides. Supporting your point of view by linking sites such as Church militant implies that is where your sympathies lies and colours that point of view accordingly. As such, suggesting that because you are a Christian other Christians should share you point of view on the matter is clearly a nonsense.

Graces7

smacl wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not attacking Christianity, I'm pointing out that more mainstream Christian groups are very critical of right wing Christian extremist groups such as Church militant. If anything, I'd suggest that is being positive about Christianity. Secondly, it is relevant to the debate as questions about foreign influence and interests (e.g. George Soros, where does Iona get its money etc...) are being asked by both sides. Supporting your point of view by linking sites such as Church militant implies that is where your sympathies lies and colours that point of view accordingly. As such, suggesting that because you are a Christian other Christians should share you point of view on the matter is clearly a nonsense.

Where did I say that? I certainly never thought that not ever would. Obeying the commandments of God is not a "point of view"

Life is sacred and we have no right to destroy it DO NOT KILL.

Delirium

Graces7 wrote: »

That was my point exactly, that that is totally illogical. Same child.

just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone who uses an abortion pill should face possible life in prison?

NuMarvel

Graces7 wrote: »

That was my point exactly, that that is totally illogical. Same child.

And yet I've heard or seen no one call for abortion to be made the legal equivalent of murder. No one wants the freedom to travel to be overturned, no one's saying the 14 year sentence should be increased to life.

In fact, most self described pro lifers want exactly the opposite. They run a mile from the suggestion that we repeal the 13th and 14th amendments, and many say they want the criminal penalty against women removed.

So you're right that these are illogical positions, but it's your peers in the anti-repeal movement that are being illogical. And they will continue to be regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

smacl

Graces7 wrote: »

Where did I say that? I certainly never thought that not ever would. Obeying the commandments of God is not a "point of view"

Life is sacred and we have no right to destroy it DO NOT KILL.

Here.

Graces7 wrote: »

Yep; the difference between abortion and infanticide is one small breath of air. And see

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/uk-admits-hundreds-of-babies-left-to-die-after-botched-abortions

google has pages of this and there is even a new word "feticide"

"thou shalt not kill" .

And as previously pointed out, "thou shalt not kill" tends to have a many exceptions for many Christians, not least the more militant ones.

robarmstrong

Delirium wrote: »

just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone who uses an abortion pill should face possible life in prison?

Extremely interested in the response to this.

I'm assuming the answer would be a yes though based on this user's previous posts.

If the answer is a yes - why should a woman who uses an abortion pill face possible life in prison?

Also strongly disagree with the thread title (though I am a very late incomer). I'm Christian (non practicing Roman Catholic) and it's not unlimited abortion, it's unrestricted.

Timberrrrrrrr

robarmstrong wrote: »

Extremely interested in the response to this.

I'm assuming the answer would be a yes though based on this user's previous posts.

If the answer is a yes - why should a woman who uses an abortion pill face possible life in prison?

Also strongly disagree with the thread title (though I am a very late incomer). I'm Christian (non practicing Roman Catholic) and it's not unlimited abortion, it's unrestricted.

Oh we all know this (even the ones using the term "unlimited abortion") but unrestricted doesn't have the same dramatic aura as unlimited.

They use that term because it sounds as if women will be having abortions every few weeks or deciding to abort at 8 months because hubby has booked a weekend in Paris and they won't be able to fit into thier little black dress they like so much.

Graces7

NuMarvel wrote: »

Under Irish law, there's more to it than that.

If I killed a newborn tomorrow, I could face a charge of murder which brings with it an automatic life sentence. On the other hand, if I carried out an illegal abortion, my crime would be "destruction of the unborn", and my maximum penalty would be 14 years.

Similarly, our constitution expressly protects the freedom to travel abroad for an abortion, but there's no equivalent provision for infanticide. And I'd say a referendum to include one wouldn't have a chance in being held, let alone being passed.

It's clear that the law, and the people in general, view abortion and infanticide as two different things. And that'll remain the case no matter what way the referendum goes.

This thread is not about Irish law. Nor does it answer my post. WHich was not about laws

Graces7

Delirium wrote: »

just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone who uses an abortion pill should face possible life in prison?

No I am not. That was not my point and you know it.

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

Extremely interested in the response to this.

I'm assuming the answer would be a yes though based on this user's previous posts.

If the answer is a yes - why should a woman who uses an abortion pill face possible life in prison?

Also strongly disagree with the thread title (though I am a very late incomer). I'm Christian (non practicing Roman Catholic) and it's not unlimited abortion, it's unrestricted.

Define Christian?

The thread is about a Christian and abortion not about the legal system

NuMarvel

Graces7 wrote: »

This thread is not about Irish law. Nor does it answer my post. WHich was not about laws

This thread is about a constitutional referendum, so it's very much about Irish law. And your post referred to abortion and infanticide, which are both legal matters. You may not have been considering them in the legal sense at the time, but in the context of a discussion on the constitution, it's an important aspect nonetheless.

Graces7

smacl wrote: »

Here.

And as previously pointed out, "thou shalt not kill" tends to have a many exceptions for many Christians, not least the more militant ones.

So? Does not invalidate "Thou shalt not kill:"

Graces7

smacl wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not attacking Christianity, I'm pointing out that more mainstream Christian groups are very critical of right wing Christian extremist groups such as Church militant. If anything, I'd suggest that is being positive about Christianity. Secondly, it is relevant to the debate as questions about foreign influence and interests (e.g. George Soros, where does Iona get its money etc...) are being asked by both sides. Supporting your point of view by linking sites such as Church militant implies that is where your sympathies lies and colours that point of view accordingly. As such, suggesting that because you are a Christian other Christians should share you point of view on the matter is clearly a nonsense.

None of this has anything to do with what I wrote. you are talking re religion not faith

So I need and will not seek any "support" (!!!!) from such sources.

And your past sentence is nothing ti do with what I said

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

Define Christian?

The thread is about a Christian and abortion not about the legal system

Someone else literally just answered that as I was typing.

Define Christian?

My definition of Christian is very different than yours. Mine being that the world is full of hypocrisy regarding Christianity and what is and what is not permitted by the religion, that irregardless of debates about abortion, same sex marriage, everything in the world today is a direct conflict of thou shalt not sin although realistically nobody lives a life without sin.

I'm a Christian, but I'm human too, I realize and understand that in today's modern society that being human is more achievable than being a "perfect" Christian.

Graces7

Sad but not unexpected, which is even sadder, to see attitudes and distorionsr

Always THOU SHALT NOT KILL forbids abortion of any kind.,

Signing off from here . Praying for you.

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

Sad but not unexpected, which is even sadder, to see attitudes and distorionsr

Always THOU SHALT NOT KILL forbids abortion of any kind.,

Signing off from here . Praying for you.

It's also sad to see such extremist views portrayed with such ignorance.

It also forbids all the atrocities we Christians committed throughout our entire existence, but sure look we all know you're going to sit there, hateful as ever and do whatever you can to prevent society from leaving that mindset behind.

When the 8th is amended and repealed I hope you'll take your defeat gracefully.

If not, I'll be praying for you.

railer201

Graces7 wrote: »

Sad but not unexpected, which is even sadder, to see attitudes and distorionsr

Always THOU SHALT NOT KILL forbids abortion of any kind.,

Signing off from here . Praying for you.

There are also sins of omission like not acting to save someones life because of the law, religious beliefs or whatever, in other words killing takes place because no intervention takes place as in the case of Savita Halappanaver. Notably also the Catholic and Anglican churches both supply padres to armies to minister to the army rank and file. Whilst soldiers inevitably kill, they also are prepared to sacrifice their own lives to save others, which in itself is the essence of Christianity.

Delirium

Graces7 wrote: »

No I am not. That was not my point and you know it.

Actually, I didn't. That's why I asked you to clarify.

You were responding to a post on how abortion and murder are not the same thing. That the unborn is not viewed as the same as an infant.

You replied that was illogical, they are the same child.

So what was your point as it isn't clear to me?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Define Christian?

The thread is about a Christian and abortion not about the legal system

It is everything to do with the legal system. The thread is specifically about Christians voting in a referendum to amend our constitution. It doesn't get any more legal than that.

As for the question itself, I am completely torn on the matter and can't, as yet, reconcile the two very strong cases being made.

end of the road

robarmstrong wrote: »

It's also sad to see such extremist views portrayed with such ignorance.

It also forbids all the atrocities we Christians committed throughout our entire existence, but sure look we all know you're going to sit there, hateful as ever and do whatever you can to prevent society from leaving that mindset behind.

When the 8th is amended and repealed I hope you'll take your defeat gracefully.

If not, I'll be praying for you.

no extremist views have been displayed in this thread, and graces7 can certainly not be accused of being "hateful"
the 8th being repealed will not be a defeat, just a set back. the campaign against non-medically necessary abortion will be won. just like we won against mainstream racism, mainstream bigotry, slavery etc.
it may take time, but that's okay, those campaigns i mentioned took time as well.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

no extremist views have been displayed in this thread, and graces7 can certainly not be accused of being "hateful"
the 8th being repealed will not be a defeat, just a set back. the campaign against non-medically necessary abortion will be won. just like we won against mainstream racism, mainstream bigotry, slavery etc.
it may take time, but that's okay, those campaigns i mentioned took time as well.

You have to be joking. Some of the stuff spouted about women and in particular, women who have been raped and how they go about reporting it, has been absolutely abhorrent.

end of the road

SusieBlue wrote: »

You have to be joking. Some of the stuff spouted about women and in particular, women who have been raped and how they go about reporting it, has been absolutely abhorrent.

that's not on this thread though.

robarmstrong

end of the road wrote: »

no extremist views have been displayed in this thread, and graces7 can certainly not be accused of being "hateful"
the 8th being repealed will not be a defeat, just a set back. the campaign against non-medically necessary abortion will be won. just like we won against mainstream racism, mainstream bigotry, slavery etc.
it may take time, but that's okay, those campaigns i mentioned took time as well.

Her views are extremist, she provides links to an extremist Christian site who are well known in other groups as being far out there with their interpretations and views.

That campaign against non-medically necessary abortion won't be won. You've literally been hounded out of every thread related to this discussion thusfar. I've no problem shutting you down in this one either or at least force you into producing a quality post.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

that's not on this thread though.

Yes they are, JC made many of them. I can dig through and quote them if you don’t want to search yourself. Are you saying those views are not extreme?

Timberrrrrrrr

robarmstrong wrote: »

Her views are extremist, she provides links to an extremist Christian site who are well known in other groups as being far out there with their interpretations and views.

That campaign against non-medically necessary abortion won't be won. You've literally been hounded out of every thread related to this discussion thusfar. I've no problem shutting you down in this one either or at least force you into producing a quality post.

That would be a first!