Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Delirium wrote: »

just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone who uses an abortion pill should face possible life in prison?

No I am not. That was not my point and you know it.

NuMarvel wrote: »

Under Irish law, there's more to it than that.

If I killed a newborn tomorrow, I could face a charge of murder which brings with it an automatic life sentence. On the other hand, if I carried out an illegal abortion, my crime would be "destruction of the unborn", and my maximum penalty would be 14 years.

Similarly, our constitution expressly protects the freedom to travel abroad for an abortion, but there's no equivalent provision for infanticide. And I'd say a referendum to include one wouldn't have a chance in being held, let alone being passed.

It's clear that the law, and the people in general, view abortion and infanticide as two different things. And that'll remain the case no matter what way the referendum goes.

This thread is not about Irish law. Nor does it answer my post. WHich was not about laws

Timberrrrrrrr

robarmstrong wrote: »

Extremely interested in the response to this.

I'm assuming the answer would be a yes though based on this user's previous posts.

If the answer is a yes - why should a woman who uses an abortion pill face possible life in prison?

Also strongly disagree with the thread title (though I am a very late incomer). I'm Christian (non practicing Roman Catholic) and it's not unlimited abortion, it's unrestricted.

Oh we all know this (even the ones using the term "unlimited abortion") but unrestricted doesn't have the same dramatic aura as unlimited.

They use that term because it sounds as if women will be having abortions every few weeks or deciding to abort at 8 months because hubby has booked a weekend in Paris and they won't be able to fit into thier little black dress they like so much.

robarmstrong

Delirium wrote: »

just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone who uses an abortion pill should face possible life in prison?

Extremely interested in the response to this.

I'm assuming the answer would be a yes though based on this user's previous posts.

If the answer is a yes - why should a woman who uses an abortion pill face possible life in prison?

Also strongly disagree with the thread title (though I am a very late incomer). I'm Christian (non practicing Roman Catholic) and it's not unlimited abortion, it's unrestricted.

smacl

Graces7 wrote: »

Where did I say that? I certainly never thought that not ever would. Obeying the commandments of God is not a "point of view"

Life is sacred and we have no right to destroy it DO NOT KILL.

Here.

Graces7 wrote: »

Yep; the difference between abortion and infanticide is one small breath of air. And see

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/uk-admits-hundreds-of-babies-left-to-die-after-botched-abortions

google has pages of this and there is even a new word "feticide"

"thou shalt not kill" .

And as previously pointed out, "thou shalt not kill" tends to have a many exceptions for many Christians, not least the more militant ones.

NuMarvel

Graces7 wrote: »

That was my point exactly, that that is totally illogical. Same child.

And yet I've heard or seen no one call for abortion to be made the legal equivalent of murder. No one wants the freedom to travel to be overturned, no one's saying the 14 year sentence should be increased to life.

In fact, most self described pro lifers want exactly the opposite. They run a mile from the suggestion that we repeal the 13th and 14th amendments, and many say they want the criminal penalty against women removed.

So you're right that these are illogical positions, but it's your peers in the anti-repeal movement that are being illogical. And they will continue to be regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Delirium

Graces7 wrote: »

That was my point exactly, that that is totally illogical. Same child.

just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone who uses an abortion pill should face possible life in prison?

smacl wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not attacking Christianity, I'm pointing out that more mainstream Christian groups are very critical of right wing Christian extremist groups such as Church militant. If anything, I'd suggest that is being positive about Christianity. Secondly, it is relevant to the debate as questions about foreign influence and interests (e.g. George Soros, where does Iona get its money etc...) are being asked by both sides. Supporting your point of view by linking sites such as Church militant implies that is where your sympathies lies and colours that point of view accordingly. As such, suggesting that because you are a Christian other Christians should share you point of view on the matter is clearly a nonsense.

Where did I say that? I certainly never thought that not ever would. Obeying the commandments of God is not a "point of view"

Life is sacred and we have no right to destroy it DO NOT KILL.

smacl

Graces7 wrote: »

Relevance to the thread please? Again you are attacking Christianity .

Firstly, I'm not attacking Christianity, I'm pointing out that more mainstream Christian groups are very critical of right wing Christian extremist groups such as Church militant. If anything, I'd suggest that is being positive about Christianity. Secondly, it is relevant to the debate as questions about foreign influence and interests (e.g. George Soros, where does Iona get its money etc...) are being asked by both sides. Supporting your point of view by linking sites such as Church militant implies that is where your sympathies lies and colours that point of view accordingly. As such, suggesting that because you are a Christian other Christians should share you point of view on the matter is clearly a nonsense.

smacl wrote: »

In the context of ChurchMilitant.com, here's what the more mainstream National Catholic Reporter have to say;

I doubt that the views pushed by hard right-wing American religious activists are either relevant to the Irish debate or representative of the views of a significant number of people in this country.

Relevance to the thread please? And nothing to do with my life or faith. Had never heard of all this and not interested. Religion is not what this is about. Faith is. Killing is against the law of God .

smacl

Graces7 wrote: »

Please define extremist also?

In the context of ChurchMilitant.com, here's what the more mainstream National Catholic Reporter have to say;

The sole desire of both Lepanto and Church Militant is to create division, confusion, and conflict within the Church. Actions of that nature run contrary to Christian tradition. Their reports are not to be taken seriously.

I doubt that the views pushed by hard right-wing American religious activists are either relevant to the Irish debate or representative of the views of a significant number of people in this country.

NuMarvel wrote: »

Under Irish law, there's more to it than that.

If I killed a newborn tomorrow, I could face a charge of murder which brings with it an automatic life sentence. On the other hand, if I carried out an illegal abortion, my crime would be "destruction of the unborn", and my maximum penalty would be 14 years.

Similarly, our constitution expressly protects the freedom to travel abroad for an abortion, but there's no equivalent provision for infanticide. And I'd say a referendum to include one wouldn't have a chance in being held, let alone being passed.

It's clear that the law, and the people in general, view abortion and infanticide as two different things. And that'll remain the case no matter what way the referendum goes.

That was my point exactly, that that is totally illogical. Same child.

DubInMeath wrote: »

Going to have to disagree with you there.

end of the road is correct. I chose the link that dealt with aborted babies who were alive being left to die. Neat evasion here.

Please define extremist also?

And before I get accused again of not responding immediately to posts that disagree with me? I am not online at the times many are because of serious chronic illness and often cannot catch up with posts easily

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

which from what i can see didn't say anything that is incorrect. and that poster is as far from being a religious extremist as it gets.

Going to have to disagree with you there.

DubInMeath wrote: »

Well the person who is thanking you the most on this thread just posted a link from an extremist religious publication.

which from what i can see didn't say anything that is incorrect. and that poster is as far from being a religious extremist as it gets.

DubInMeath wrote: »

Well the person who is thanking you the most on this thread just posted a link from an extremist religious publication.

It’s almist like he’s trying to cover for them. They don’t exist only in tiny numbers apparently. But he said none of them are here ??

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

correct. however that isn't happening here. they are being prevented from killing another human being within the state, who just so happens to be unborn. the same would happen to them if the human being was born, except they would be prosecuted in that case.

it's not, as it would be preventing her from killing someone else. religious extremism isn't relevant given there are none on boards and the few that exist in ireland are tiny in number.

Well the person who is thanking you the most on this thread just posted a link from an extremist religious publication.

NuMarvel

Graces7 wrote: »

Yep; the difference between abortion and infanticide is one small breath of air.

Under Irish law, there's more to it than that.

If I killed a newborn tomorrow, I could face a charge of murder which brings with it an automatic life sentence. On the other hand, if I carried out an illegal abortion, my crime would be "destruction of the unborn", and my maximum penalty would be 14 years.

Similarly, our constitution expressly protects the freedom to travel abroad for an abortion, but there's no equivalent provision for infanticide. And I'd say a referendum to include one wouldn't have a chance in being held, let alone being passed.

It's clear that the law, and the people in general, view abortion and infanticide as two different things. And that'll remain the case no matter what way the referendum goes.

david75 wrote: »

YOu are controlling a woman when you prevent them from making their own choices.

correct. however that isn't happening here. they are being prevented from killing another human being within the state, who just so happens to be unborn. the same would happen to them if the human being was born, except they would be prosecuted in that case.

david75 wrote: »

You yourself said you’d stop them travelling if you could.
That is extremism.

it's not, as it would be preventing her from killing someone else. religious extremism isn't relevant given there are none on boards and the few that exist in ireland are tiny in number.

end of the road wrote: »

there is no controling of women. preventing women from killing their unborn child is not controling them. you are the one bringing in religious extremists to the debate, they are a very very tiny few and there are none on here.

YOu are controlling a woman when you prevent them from making their own choices. You yourself said you’d stop them travelling if you could.
That is extremism.

david75 wrote: »

so It’s like bible buffet where you pick can and choose what rules to follow and blithely ignore others as they relate to you personally.

Very very odd.

There really is no room for religious extremists in this debate. Leave controlling women as second class and less equal to the Muslim extremists. It’s unbecoming Of any Christian.

there is no controling of women. preventing women from killing their unborn child is not controling them. you are the one bringing in religious extremists to the debate, they are a very very tiny few and there are none on here.

so It’s like bible buffet where you pick can and choose what rules to follow and blithely ignore others as they relate to you personally.

Very very odd.

There really is no room for religious extremists in this debate. Leave controlling women as second class and less equal to the Muslim extremists. It’s unbecoming Of any Christian.

david75 wrote: »

It’s finny the way ‘judge not lest ye be judged’ gets forgotten in all this.

It is not judging to obey the commandment of God "do not kill" .

end of the road wrote: »

nobody is being judged. the act is being judged. if we were discussing the killing of newborns the same would happen. and there would be a lot more agreement.

Yep; the difference between abortion and infanticide is one small breath of air. And see

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/uk-admits-hundreds-of-babies-left-to-die-after-botched-abortions

google has pages of this and there is even a new word "feticide"

"thou shalt not kill" .

david75 wrote: »

It’s finny the way ‘judge not lest ye be judged’ gets forgotten in all this.

nobody is being judged. the act is being judged. if we were discussing the killing of newborns the same would happen. and there would be a lot more agreement.

It’s finny the way ‘judge not lest ye be judged’ gets forgotten in all this.

Turtwig

MOD:

This thread is for a discussion on abortion. In particular, a discussion on the legality and ethics of it from a Christian perspective. This is not a thread to discuss the wider tenets of Christianity as a whole. Posters should be also be reminded of the forum charter. While comment on Christianity is welcome it should not be seen as
an open invitation to attack Christianity.

pauldla

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Indeed it is, when lived rightly as so many live it. by the words f Jesus Christ, Son of God , Saviour

'Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword!'

It may well be argued that the quote has been taken out of context (it has been) or that different interpretations of the context are possible (they are), but that reinforces the point smacl is making, does it not? Is it labouring the point to add 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?